Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

[No Great Name]

When you say that you are not swamped with several nearly identical titles*, you are not paying attention (which may be good for your sanity). I had already linked to the current line-up of the Groupees Greenlight. You have standard arcade shooters, tower defense and Bejeweled clones. It's the same stuff over and over, just with a fresh coat of paint.

The first game I looked at from that link is as you said an arcade shooter. The video was hilarious.


"Dodge the bullets" at 0:55 and "Cry on epic story" at 1:16 are the definite highlights.

 

[Turjan]

The first game I looked at from that link is as you said an arcade shooter. The video was hilarious.

As I said above, the videos seem to have put more work into them than the games themselves. The second one isn't too bad, either, even if it overstays its welcome somewhat (half the length would have been enough).

 

[DragoFireheart]

In regards to pixels I refuse to play anything less than 16-bit as a rule.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

am i the only one here who thinks vogel is a fucking retard always and only pushing his own agenda?

the e.t. landfill is a wrong example because that wasn't an increase in offer, that was a supply of a single product. a bigger offer is NEVER negative for the customer. NEVER. even if it's mostly crap, it's still more to choose from, tastes differ, there's always a market for something, for as small as it can be.
who can have issues with a wider offer? shit sellers with no multimillionary marketing. oh wait...

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/t...m-when-they-have-six-options-rather-than-24-1

People buy more jam when they have six options rather than 24.

Two stands were set up in Draeger's, a store known for its immense variety. One stand had six jams and the second had 24 for customers to stop by and sample before choosing to buy. The test was set up to see how many people would buy jam when they were presented with six choices versus 24.

The results: While more people stopped at the stand with 24 jams, more people actually bought the jam from the stand with six options, and were six times more likely to do so.

stop experimenting at walmart and start asking humans.

 

[Average Manatee]

The tyranny of choice is a well-known concept. It's why modern RPGs don't offer more than 3 or 4 dialog choices, all of them completely orthogonal to each other. To do otherwise is like those shitty multiple-choice answer tests in school (everyone took these, right?) where there were multiple answers that could be right and you had to choose the "best" answer. The more answers there are and the closer the answers are to each other, the more anxiety the player has over not choosing the "best" answer.

Of course this is generally only applicable to the casual audience who doesn't know enough to distinguish one option from another. Once your knowledge gets beyond the basic level you can easily tell the difference between the options and why they matter. Hence why a consoletard can look at a PS:T dialog and just cry for mercy, while a codexer vomits on sight of modern "dialog". This is also why most people will look and see an indistinguishable mess of pixel art platformers while others can easily distinguish the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Roguey]

Offering more than 3 or 4 dialogue choices is just going to lead to a large amount of pointless, superficial reactions. Did it matter what your answer was to "What can change the nature of a man?" No, it did not.

 

[Abelian]

Offering more than 3 or 4 dialogue choices is just going to lead to a large amount of pointless, superficial reactions. Did it matter what your answer was to "What can change the nature of a man?" No, it did not.

agree

Spoiler

-disagree
-brofist
-retarded
-gay
-racist
-butthurt
-funny

 

[Ninjerk]

Offering more than 3 or 4 dialogue choices is just going to lead to a large amount of pointless, superficial reactions. Did it matter what your answer was to "What can change the nature of a man?" No, it did not.

It's roleplaying, and, for that particular choice, I personally found it quite compelling although I was fairly certain there was no mechanical benefit.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

am i the only one here who thinks vogel is a fucking retard always and only pushing his own agenda?

the e.t. landfill is a wrong example because that wasn't an increase in offer, that was a supply of a single product. a bigger offer is NEVER negative for the customer. NEVER. even if it's mostly crap, it's still more to choose from, tastes differ, there's always a market for something, for as small as it can be.
who can have issues with a wider offer? shit sellers with no multimillionary marketing. oh wait...

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/t...m-when-they-have-six-options-rather-than-24-1

People buy more jam when they have six options rather than 24.

Two stands were set up in Draeger's, a store known for its immense variety. One stand had six jams and the second had 24 for customers to stop by and sample before choosing to buy. The test was set up to see how many people would buy jam when they were presented with six choices versus 24.

The results: While more people stopped at the stand with 24 jams, more people actually bought the jam from the stand with six options, and were six times more likely to do so.

stop experimenting at walmart and start asking humans.

Self-reports have validity problems.

For example, people will probably report they want as many options as possible, but experiments seem to show the opposite.

 

[Average Manatee]

Offering more than 3 or 4 dialogue choices is just going to lead to a large amount of pointless, superficial reactions. Did it matter what your answer was to "What can change the nature of a man?" No, it did not.

I didn't say that more than 3 or 4 dialog choices was inherently better than 3 or 4. Just that modern "dialog" choices (happy face/mean face/ambivalent face one-worded responses) were shit.

 

[Konjad]

The tyranny of choice is a well-known concept. It's why modern RPGs don't offer more than 3 or 4 dialog choices, all of them completely orthogonal to each other. To do otherwise is like those shitty multiple-choice answer tests in school (everyone took these, right?) where there were multiple answers that could be right and you had to choose the "best" answer. The more answers there are and the closer the answers are to each other, the more anxiety the player has over not choosing the "best" answer.

Of course this is generally only applicable to the casual audience who doesn't know enough to distinguish one option from another. Once your knowledge gets beyond the basic level you can easily tell the difference between the options and why they matter. Hence why a consoletard can look at a PS:T dialog and just cry for mercy, while a codexer vomits on sight of modern "dialog". This is also why most people will look and see an indistinguishable mess of pixel art platformers while others can easily distinguish the wheat from the chaff.

Oh, of course, you are a special snowflake belonging to an elite group of intelligent gamers, not like all those morons around you!

 

[Roguey]

It's roleplaying, and, for that particular choice, I personally found it quite compelling although I was fairly certain there was no mechanical benefit.

Role-playing with no in-game reaction is called LARPing around these parts.

I didn't say that more than 3 or 4 dialog choices was inherently better than 3 or 4. Just that modern "dialog" choices (happy face/mean face/ambivalent face one-worded responses) were shit.

What you call modern existed back in Baldur's Gate. Fallout typically gave you just one way of moving a conversation forward, sometimes two.

 

[Average Manatee]

The tyranny of choice is a well-known concept. It's why modern RPGs don't offer more than 3 or 4 dialog choices, all of them completely orthogonal to each other. To do otherwise is like those shitty multiple-choice answer tests in school (everyone took these, right?) where there were multiple answers that could be right and you had to choose the "best" answer. The more answers there are and the closer the answers are to each other, the more anxiety the player has over not choosing the "best" answer.

Of course this is generally only applicable to the casual audience who doesn't know enough to distinguish one option from another. Once your knowledge gets beyond the basic level you can easily tell the difference between the options and why they matter. Hence why a consoletard can look at a PS:T dialog and just cry for mercy, while a codexer vomits on sight of modern "dialog". This is also why most people will look and see an indistinguishable mess of pixel art platformers while others can easily distinguish the wheat from the chaff.

Oh, of course, you are a special snowflake belonging to an elite group of intelligent gamers, not like all those morons around you!

Well yes, that was the main point.

I didn't say that more than 3 or 4 dialog choices was inherently better than 3 or 4. Just that modern "dialog" choices (happy face/mean face/ambivalent face one-worded responses) were shit.

What you call modern existed back in Baldur's Gate. Fallout typically gave you just one way of moving a conversation forward, sometimes two.

And those dialog choices were properly written rather than being the faux dialog you see in games like ME, yes?

 

[Roguey]

And those dialog choices were properly written rather than being the faux dialog you see in games like ME, yes?

I don't see the differences in quality between ME and BG. Lukas Kristjanson has always been lousy. Or as Josh puts it

Please note that all those ~options~ in the Torment screen are purely of the "give me exposition" variety. These days, such exposition would either be presented in a manner that attempts to simulate an actual conversation better and/or set aside in the "Investigate" option of Bioware's dialogue wheel.

 

[Average Manatee]

So you don't see the differences, then post a screen explicitly showing the differences? I think you solved your own problem there.

 

[DragoFireheart]

I don't see the differences in quality between ME and BG.

That's because Bioware has always been retarded.

 

[Modron]

Well for moment it looked like they were a learning animal as BG 2 was quite a step up in quality but then they made kotor and found their winning formula for plot and romance and have repeated it ad nauseum ever since with each iteration containing more and more derp.

 

[Roguey]

So you don't see the differences, then post a screen explicitly showing the differences? I think you solved your own problem there.

Do you seriously believe there's a difference between "I'm [charname]" "My name is [charname] and I'm friendly" "I have a chip on my shoulder" and modern Bioware-style dialogue?

 

[Ninjerk]

I believe there's a carefully rendered ass next to the Bioware dialogue

 

[Turjan]

I believe there's a carefully rendered ass next to the Bioware dialogue

That was basically the moment when they embraced their reputation.

 

[Abelian]

I believe there's a carefully rendered ass next to the Bioware dialogue

That was basically the moment when they embraced their reputation.

T&A is much easier to implement than C&C.

 

[Roguey]

The great thing about that is how Josh included that pic to point out its absurdity, but a lot of women in the audience just immediately shut down and no longer cared about what he had to say.

 

[Tehdagah]

The great thing about that is how Josh included that pic to point out its absurdity, but a lot of women in the audience just immediately shut down and no longer cared about what he had to say.

This is what you actually believe

 

[DragoFireheart]

The great thing about that is how Josh included that pic to point out its absurdity, but a lot of women in the audience just immediately shut down and no longer cared about what he had to say.

If dialog before failed "structurally" then it's the fault of the designers for not implementing it as it appears. Admitting this and oking the current lack of depth in dialog is beyond retarded.

 

[Renegen]

So you don't see the differences, then post a screen explicitly showing the differences? I think you solved your own problem there.

Do you seriously believe there's a difference between "I'm [charname]" "My name is [charname] and I'm friendly" "I have a chip on my shoulder" and modern Bioware-style dialogue?

"I can't tell the difference between ME and Torment, also patriarchy" - Roguey

I thought you were just weird, time to start ignoring.