Javelin - party-based d20 roguelike (open-source RPG / strategy game)

[Bumvelcrow]

Yes the art absolutely needs to be revamped. I have used art from other open-source games, libre collections and especially from Tyrant, which I forked Javelin from. Hopefully at some point an artist will come along with enough time and effort to create new graphics from scratch so the game can have a tailored style but until then there's not much I can do since I'm a programmer/game designer, not an artist...

Perhaps you should have a look in the Codex Workshop subforum if you haven't already. Somebody might like to collaborate. Prosperland also has a resident artist, but he appears to be less creative than he used to be.

 

[kek]

That is a great suggestion, I had no idea the Workshop existed! Unfortunately I need to make a few more programming changes so it's easier for artists to collaborate to the project. Many of the images are already on individual files but the ones that need work the most are on a big tileset which is pretty lame to work on right now, especially because it sits inside a zipped (.jar) file which needs to be updated before you can see the modifications in art assets.

I'm working on a second bug-fix release now with some of the feedback I've got so far. Maybe after that is done I'll post something on the Workshop and if someone is interested in helping we could work together to make these changes!

I'll update this thread here when the bug-free release is out by the way so those interested can update their games!

 

[kek]

As promised here is the bug-fix release https://javelinrl.wordpress.com/2016/05/06/javelin-1-5/

Thanks again for all the comments and many lulz

 

[fastjack]

I just wanted to chime in to say that this looks really promising and I look forward to trying it tonight.

 

[kek]

Hi fastjack, I have been very pleased with the feedback since releasing 1.3 last Friday (and a couple of bug-fix releases after that)! The newest release should be free of bugs (at least major ones) and you can read more about the project and future plans on the webpage as well.

Let me know how you like (or hate) the game - community feedback has been what has driven most of the latest releases to come through!

 

[Mustawd]

Looks lovely. What are the requirements for the art? Mostly work in traditional pencil, so pixel art is not my thing, per se. But might give it a crack if you make it easy for me to simply submit images.

 

[kek]

Looks lovely

You're too kind Mustawd, I hope it doesn't look terrible but there's definitely room for improvement in the visual aspect!

What are the requirements for the art?

Pretty simple - every art asset in the game is a 32x32 PNG file. How these assets fit into the actual game depends but if all you'd be up to is submitting individual images it wouldn't actually impact your work any further! It would be a HUGE help to the game though, especially if you could try to create new art assets that have an unique look-and-feel. If you take a look at the 1.3 screenshot (link) you'll see that some of the images are isometric, others are top-down, others are 3d, others 2d... this mostly comes from me having to scavenge art from different libre sources to make the game.

There are two main priorities as far as art is concerned:

1. Creating an unified look-and-feel for the game maps (world map, battle maps and dungeon map).

2. Creating new monster images for the next batch of monsters that will get into the game (to be honest, as long as we don't have images for them there is 0% chance they'd make it into the game).

If you can help with any of these (preferably 1) or even replacing a few of the assets with better ones you would be doing us a great honor!

You can find me here, or at javelinrl@gmail.com if you want to keep the thread here clean!

 

[Mustawd]

So something that comes together like this? Obviously, it's just an example, but I'm guessing this is the ideal that you're shooting for in terms of point of view/world map view?

 

[kek]

Exactly! That's perfect actually! It looks pretty good as well! The only nitpick I have is that the figures look a bit small but the background is awesome - feels realistic but not too realistic, if you know what I mean!

I also like a lot the art style for Heroes of Might and Magic 3 which I played a bunch as a kid! Though as you can see they aren't using only square images. Looks great though!

• http://media.idownloadblog.com/wp-c...roes-of-Might-and-Magic-III-PC-screenshot.jpg
• http://paulthetall.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Heroes-of-Might-Magic-III-screenshot4.jpg
• http://static2.cdn.ubi.com/emea/gamesites/mm/screen/h3hd/might-and-magic-heroes-3-hd-03.jpg
• https://lh3.ggpht.com/pVricu4a1S63c3fXk6hcU7s0ykd8pfpHYd5h2VSKi2vG1TqFVP7Fq2uT-vyXiHd1FQ=h900
• https://ubistatic-a.akamaihd.net/00..._H3_Announcement/H3HD_Protect_your_castle.jpg

But overall you're right on the money - that's exactly the kind of unified look-and-feel Javelin would benefit a lot from!

 

[Mustawd]

So are the maps already created? I haven't made up my mind if I'm going to do it or not (as it takes quite a commitment. Especially since I don't currently work digitally; But meaning to learn anyways). But if I WAS to help, it might help to start with a zoomed out image of the map like this one:

That way I could get an idea of how everything fits together. Obviously, tiling would work best. Especially if this is going to be open source for modding purposes. But then the issue is making sure the tiles can be combined together into something cohesive. So it takes time.

Anyhow, I might take a shot at making images for buildings first. We'll see. So for the monsters or PCs, how would that work? Would you have an image with a transparent background kind of like the screenshots I linked to earlier?

 

[kek]

Obviously, tiling would work best. Especially if this is going to be open source for modding purposes. But then the issue is making sure the tiles can be combined together into something cohesive.

Yes, I do understand how hard it can be, not only to make the tiles fit but also to make them look good together. Hopefully if you make up your mind (here's to hoping!) and want to start working on the world map first it shouldn't be a huge number of images to work with.

If you want to take a closer look please download the game. Once you unzip it you'll see a folder called avatars - these are exactly individual files set up this way for modding purposes (I like that back in the day we used to called that making a new "skin" but times change )

You'll notice though that not all images are there - especially the backgrounds and environments (trees, stones and such) that are inside the .jar file, which is something that we inherited from the game Javelin used as an initial code-base, called Tyrant. If you choose to go on with the work I'll be working at the same time to make absolutely everything individual images, to be easier to work with.

I'd like to point out though that if you try to tackle each type of map individually it's not that much work at all. Some battle maps for example use only 3 tiles or something like that. Most use tiles that are found on other maps as well. Let me know if you want me to make a screenshot of each type of map and lay out a baseline of how you could tackle this project in several, smaller steps. Of course you'd be a 100% free to change this planning, but I think it would be easier for you to start with and understand how the project is laid out. Also, every single map is procedurally-generated (random), so the "are the maps already created?" question is not really how the game works. All of them are, however already functioning in-game so I guess they are all "already created"

I think one of the methods we could work with is you creating composite images like the ones you've sent and then extracting individual tiles from it to fit into the game. I'm not sure what is easier to create - creating only individual tiles sounds easier but creating an entire tileset image (example) gives you a better feel of how things look as a whole.

 

[you know what time it is]

So something that comes together like this? Obviously, it's just an example, but I'm guessing this is the ideal that you're shooting for in terms of point of view/world map view?

Spoiler

What's this? Dominions?

 

[Mustawd]

yup. dominions 4.

EDIT: For the record I think I would do a pretty good job with the art. The only thing that makes me hesitate is that:

1. I'd have to buy a tablet, as I don't currently work digitally.
2. I'd have to learn photoshop.

It might take me a month or two to know it well enough and have enough practice to make anything of value. But at the end of June I'll be out of commission for about a month and a half due to work.

I've been playing with the idea to go fully digital, but haven't made up my mind. Honestly, I probably won't look at this seriously until early August. But if I get around to creating a PC or monster portrait or two I'll definitely post it.

 

[kek]

Hey Mustawd, you don't really need to own a tablet or learn Photoshop for this. Here's what the fastest of Google searches pointed me at (I'm sure there are more out there - all of those are free btw):

http://www.aseprite.org/

http://www.piskelapp.com/ (online tool)

http://mtpaint.sourceforge.net/

I"d also write out a simple webpage for you to help automatically tile the images together to see how they look when placed next to each other and also to see how a certain image looks on top of a certain background as well. This would help you just create individual images, the webpage would help you create "tilesets" (composite images) from these in a super simple and fast manner.

if I get around to creating a PC or monster portrait or two I'll definitely post it.

If you take a look at the downloaded package you'll see we actually have pretty decent pixel art for the monster and player units. Instead we do really need: background, location art for places in the world map and so on. The only thing we really need as far as monsters are concerned is new monster art for monsters that aren't in the game yet - I'd be happy to make a list of those if you're interested.

Of course, if you want to improve current monster art that would be cool but it's certainly on my lower priority list. If you'd have fun at it be my guest though - I'm certainly not opposing it!

For the record I think I would do a pretty good job with the art

Well I've put it out there clearly that we could use your help and that I'd be willing to outline a few steps for you to start working with and help you by writing simple tools and making the necessary changes in the current game as well (making all images individual files) . Just say the word. I'm not going to keep bugging you out on this though, so let me know what you decide.

 

[Mustawd]

I'll take a look. Thanks.

 

[Mustawd]

You'll notice though that not all images are there - especially the backgrounds and environments (trees, stones and such) that are inside the .jar file, which is something that we inherited from the game Javelin used as an initial code-base, called Tyrant. If you choose to go on with the work I'll be working at the same time to make absolutely everything individual images, to be easier to work with.

So I've started to experiment a bit with this. I'll post some images when I have a few pulled up.

edit: Just messing around with a grass tile I made using MS paint to put in the tiles:

 

[Mustawd]

kek , for the environment tiles do you need them to be 32X32 as well? What about the buildings?

Also, on the buildings and structures, care to give me list of things you'd like? It's kind of hard to make out half the crap as they just seem like random images.


EDIT: Also, if you could somehow extract the images you currently use for the environments that'd be great.

 

[kek]

Hi Mustawd, I replied to your e-mail. I'll be working on later today and tomorrow morning to see what I can do to make your work easier both in working with game files and planning (making a list of what is important to have done in my head - which of course you can follow or not as you desire but that could be a good starting point). Let you know when I have more news and send you a game version for development ASAP!

Thanks again for joining the team :D

Btw I guess we should talk by mail from now on, or we will make a mess out of this thread!

 

[kek]

Hello veterans and rookies! Today Javelin 1.6 is being released! It’s a big one so let’s get to it!

For those new to the game you can find out all about it here https://javelinrl.wordpress.com/2016/07/15/hello-world/

You can download your copy of Javelin 1.6 right here https://github.com/tukkek/javelin/releases/download/1.6/javelin.zip

If you have any sort of problem running the game check the link above for further instructions.

This release brings some changes to the early and late game, while also creating a new well-defined end-goal for each game. Besides a lot of new monsters for low level characters to duel against there are also new starting locations that will help you get the party started: the Adventurers Guild lets you apply starting kits to your units while the Training Hall provides an early challenge that also promises great rewards in a low-danger environment.

You will now find 7 temples scattered throughout the world map: each of them is a persistent, multi-level dungeon and holds a Relic on their deepest levels – each a powerful item on its own and now essential to winning the game, as you need to collect every relic to do so! Hopefully this will make each game feel more like a story while also providing interesting strategic decisions – should you rush towards each temple to reap the benefits from its Relic as soon as possible or level up enough to be able to face them with ease later on? Will your priority be vanquishing the forgotten temples or conquer the entire world map first?

There are new special locations too! The Summoning Circle lets your characters learn powerful summoning spells to bring forth allies during battle and the Pillar of Skulls, a macabre but powerful ally will accept several sorts of sacrifices and grant you fair boons for your trouble!

This release brings the full set of terrains predicted in the d20 rules – and with that also a system of seasons and natural hazards which you’ll discover while exploring the game world. Sail uncharted waters and try to find your way through massive sandstorms! This new system also makes world movement more dynamic and even lets you shape the world with your town workers – Civilization style!

The interface has been improved as well: you can now put your units under the control of the computer, activate quick combat (combat results are calculated automatically), edit your preferences and key settings via in-game screens and take notes with the new journal feature! The save system is faster, more robust and creates backups of your progress every time the game is started. A few bugs have been fixed too so if you had trouble losing progress on earlier versions please give this one a try! The AI now constantly monitors its own performance and suggests fixes if your configuration is less than optimal for the game. If and when an error occurs a lot more information is shown so you can submit it as a bug report.

And these are just a few of the new features! Check out the other highlights here:

New locations: 7 temples, 11 mage guilds, troves and mines!
New starting locations: Training Hall and Adventurers Guild!
New unique locations: Summoning Circle and Pillar of Skulls!
Around 50 new monsters!
New end-game goal: bring the 7 Relics to Haxor!
All game images can now be easily modified! (mod/skin support)
New damage effects: poison, paralysis, fear
Burrow movement
New item type: wands
New skills: use magic device and heal
New transport: sailing ship
More realistic, dynamic land movement
Seasons, new terrains and terrain features
Town workers let you build roads, settlements and more
Player units can now be set to automatic (controlled by AI)
New party option: strategic combat (skips random encounters)
Preferences and command keys can now be edited in-game
In-game journal for taking notes
More information on errors, for easier bug reporting
Improved save system, also creates automatic backups
AI system now monitors thinking speed and corrects itself if slow
183 monsters
47 items, 12 artifacts
63 upgrades, 49 spells, 13 skills
22 battle maps

Full release post with more screenshots and information https://javelinrl.wordpress.com/2016/07/15/javelin-1-6/

 

[Lord Rocket]

Well, I've played it for a bit, and my first impression is that combat is slow, slow, slow. I get to sit there for, what, a second or so every time one of my stupid fucking dogs misses their attacks, and then the AI spends 2 seconds 'thinking' before it decides to move back and forth between the same two squares 3 or 4 times. Joy.

I don't know what the AI is doing but frankly I had a better combat experience in Ultima IV than this ; the AI was just as retarded but at least it was quick and aggressive. What this game needs is (a) a speed boost (at least let me press enter after an attack instead of having to wait a second to read the message, and make the AI actually attack me sometimes geez) and (b) a bit more feedback on what the hell is going on; I have no idea what the turn order is going to be, for example, or how many squares my characters get to move. I'm OK with obfuscating HP values* but I actually do need to know how far I can move and when a new turn begins! What the fuck is an AP anyway and, assuming they are Action Points, why is it a fractional value? Why is knowing that the AP is -0.4 more important than knowing how fast my dudes are?

* although the terminology is confusing; is injured worse than wounded? I don't know, although I suspect it is, and colloquially that makes no sense to me, since 'injured' is what happens to sportsmen and 'wounded' is what happens to soldiers. Using 'dying' in place of 'nearly dead' is particularly bad since Dying, in say, the Gold Box games, generally means your guy is about to, you know, die, not just that their HP is low.

Man I got worked up writing this post. Add a keys.txt to your docs folder too, that was the first thing I looked for. And how about being able to set the resolution in the preferences file?

 

[kek]

You can slow down the thinking and message delay speed via the O key though as you can see the game is intended to play that way. If you play some older jRPGs like Phantasy Star or even Final Fantasy you'll notice each unit's turn takes around 3 seconds or so to complete as well (it's just more fluid due to the animations and such). It's quite playable. It's a slow paced RPG, not an action game. The trade-off is AI quality over speed, though it's not perfect either.

I see you're plenty confused with the rules. You can read the entire ruleset at www.d20srd.org . The only difference is that turns are converted to AP. 1 AP = 1 turn. Partial actions like move or attacks are, similar to the official d20 rules, taking half a turn (0.5 AP).

> I have no idea what the turn order is going to be

I'll keep that in mind for future releases.

> how many squares my characters get to move

Just look at the statistics screen, which you can see using the look (x) command, it tells you exactly the movement speed in squares.

> injured worse than wounded?

Of course it is - but even if you're in doubt playing the game for a little while will show this to be true. Sorry you couldn't fully understand a complex game by playing for 10 minutes or so.... I think anyone who puts a little more time in the game will have most of your questions figured out - I'd rather have that as learning experience than writing tons of long, boring, and soon-outdated manual pages.

> Add a keys.txt to your docs folder too

And since when is keys.txt a documentation file? xD

Sorry that Javelin doesn't seem to be the type of game you enjoy! Thank you for the feedback though, I'll see about adding an Initiative Order chart! Rock on!

 

[Lord Rocket]

No dude, this is EXACTLY the sort of game I enjoy and want to play. That's why I played it, and spent time writing about it. It's just not fun.

You can slow down the thinking and message delay speed via the O key though as you can see the game is intended to play that way. If you play some older jRPGs like Phantasy Star or even Final Fantasy you'll notice each unit's turn takes around 3 seconds or so to complete as well (it's just more fluid due to the animations and such). It's quite playable. It's a slow paced RPG, not an action game. The trade-off is AI quality over speed, though it's not perfect either.

Why can't you just make the messages dismissable via a keypress? Slow paced doesn't equate to 'makes the player wait.'
Animations are cool... the first tme you see them. When I played Phantasy Star, I think III, a few years back I used the max speed key on the emulator I was using to make combat bearable. There is no reason to waste the player's time.
Another example: I like board games. I have a copy of Space Hulk. It's fun. No computer adaptation of Space Hulk has ever been fun (well, the OG one from ~1993 was OK I guess). The simple reason why is 100% of the down time in the board game version of Space Hulk is spent thinking about what I'm going to do, not waiting for my fat, stupid, slow terminators to trundle down a corridor (or for messages to go away).

As for the AI, you are a master of understatement.

I see you're plenty confused with the rules. You can read the entire ruleset at www.d20srd.org . The only difference is that turns are converted to AP. 1 AP = 1 turn. Partial actions like move or attacks are, similar to the official d20 rules, taking half a turn (0.5 AP).

Everyone on this site is familiar with the D20 rules. The problem is not the rules, the problem is your UI. There's a reason I didn't complain about the rules at any point in my original post.

That said, thank you for the explanation; perhaps any deviations from the basic rules should be written down somewhere other than this forum? Frankly this would be a lot clearer if the AP counter counted down rather than up as well.

> I have no idea what the turn order is going to be

I'll keep that in mind for future releases.

Good. There's no reason to conceal information from players that would be apparent when playing the tabletop version of the game.

> how many squares my characters get to move

Just look at the statistics screen, which you can see using the look (x) command, it tells you exactly the movement speed in squares.

It's great that the stat screen tells me how many squares I get to move, and I did work that out (although why for the life of me the MOST IMPORTANT THING in the howtoplay.txt, what the h key is for, is buried in the fifth paragraph. It needs to be immediately apparent, ie. at the top. In fact there's no reason to have anything else in that file!), but why isn't it presented to me on the combat screen? What possible reason is there to obfuscate such a basic piece of information? What you are expecting me to do in this situation is: press x, memorise a stat and then count how many times I push a key. Is this less or more irritating than just having a number on screen that iterates downwards as I move around, do you think?

> injured worse than wounded?

Of course it is - but even if you're in doubt playing the game for a little while will show this to be true. Sorry you couldn't fully understand a complex game by playing for 10 minutes or so.... I think anyone who puts a little more time in the game will have most of your questions figured out - I'd rather have that as learning experience than writing tons of long, boring, and soon-outdated manual pages.

No, of course it isn't. For the reasons I explained. If you are ESL then you have an excuse for not knowing this, but if you have been raised in an environment using colloquial English regularly then you should know that 'injuries' encompass wounds but also less severe sorts of harms. A google image search for 'injuries' vs. 'wounds' will clear this up for you -- 'injuries' has some pictures of gross stuff, but also of soccer players pretending they're hurt, while 'wounds' will only return pictures of gross stuff.

Your game isn't particularly complicated; certainly no more so than Incursion, which uses essentially the same rules and is fun as hell. And if it was then that's actually a very good reason to present things very clearly to the player.

> Add a keys.txt to your docs folder too

And since when is keys.txt a documentation file? xD

Are you serious? KNOWING WHAT KEYS TO PUSH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN ANY GAME! Holy shit I can't believe you wrote that! Just copy and paste the output of the h key into a text file. Suddenly I don't have to press h every time I want to do anything.
(Perhaps you thought I meant a file full of encyption keys or something, but considering the context of this discussion, obviously I did not).

Sorry that Javelin doesn't seem to be the type of game you enjoy! Thank you for the feedback though, I'll see about adding an Initiative Order chart! Rock on!

blergh

 

[kek]

> Why can't you just make the messages dismissable via a keypress?

I think it's not much of a hassle to just use the options screen for that - just set the timers really low. The reason you have to wait is that the computer needs to think in the background while the messages are shown, one of the goals of the game is to have a strong AI, which in turn requires thinking time. As I said I don't think this is your sort of game by definition - you sound like the kind of guy who'd want to open up a chess game and expect the computer to act under 1 second, when real chess players (or D&D players) don't. Sorry Javelin isn't like that - though you sure can configure it to be if that is your thing, it will take you 30 seconds to open up the options screen and change the timers.

> perhaps any deviations from the basic rules should be written down somewhere other than this forum?

So far you're the only person who's written to me saying he had trouble understanding the differences. I think they're pretty intuitive if you put some time on the game. If more people ask to I will.

> There's no reason to conceal information from players that would be apparent when playing the tabletop version of the game.

It's up to the DM if he gives initiative information at all to the players... I've certainly played games where the DM rolled group initiative each turn and kept it in the dark.

> although why for the life of me the MOST IMPORTANT THING in the howtoplay.txt, what the h key is for, is buried in the fifth paragraph

It also shows you exactly the same information as the first thing whenever you open the game (before showing you the world screen), how could you miss it? Literally every single time, try it out yourself. Also no need for all caps here, chill out.

> What you are expecting me to do in this situation is: press x, memorise a stat and then count how many times I push a key

I'm not expecting you to do anything, as you shouldn't with me since you've paid me no money to make any sort of demands xD Anyway 1.7 will come up with basic mouse support which will make this a lot better. Also, again, if you put some time into the game you'll see that the exact number of squares isn't really important. Each step is like around .1 AP, very minimal so you can just relax and make your next move next turn if you run out of AP. This is not like most roguelikes where a couple of missed steps are likely to kill you - it's a much more free flowing and intuitive experience.

The nitpick about wounds/injuries will clearly go away if you play the game for more than 30 minutes (for the nth time). I really won't try to explain the entire game to players in under 10 minutes, ever. I'd rather have them try it out for themselves and learn as they go. As I've said the impatient aren't probably going to stick to Javelin anyway so I won't even bother trying.

Incursion sounds pretty fun but it's Windows only and ASCII, which are a no-go for me nowadays. I guess I've been spoiled by better games!

> KNOWING WHAT KEYS TO PUSH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN ANY GAME! Holy shit I can't believe you wrote that!
> blergh

You sound like an unhappy little fellow, and I can't say that I've got much out of this discussion (except the initiative chart thing). I don't think pressing h is too much of a hassle to merit me maintaining an external documentation file. Also the TXT wouldn't update when players configure new keys. You're really something of a lazy fuck if you can't be bothered to press h to see the key commands but feels fine ALT+tabbing to a hypothetical keys.txt, right? Anyway best of luck with your life, try not to stress too much over little things, life is good ♥

 

[V_K]

What's with the devs of dnd-based indies and their antagonistic attitudes? First Pierre Begue and his tantrums, now this...

 

[felipepepe]

kek you know that there are some excellent free creative common tiles out there,such as this AngBandTK collection, right?