IWD 2 vs ToEE: Which was better and why?

[Darkness_in_Urdu]

I personally have to say ToEE! (with official patch ofcourse, none of that Final Fantasy luving Co8 bullshit...they added cloud's sword for crying out loud)

Basically, IWD2 was fantastic. Great music, great progression (level 1-20) and lots of spells and stuff. However their implementation of 3e was flawed, unsurprisingly. Plus some maps got way, way boring (the ice palace). It had a better story though.

ToEE had a crap story and crap npc's and crap quests...but the graphics are very sweet (love the detail..capes and robes and wizard hats) and the combat is amazing! ALso, the implementation of the 3e ruleset is spot on. With this game all one can sadly think is wasted potential! Imagine other mods...like I6:Ravenloft!

So anyway, what do you think?

Discuss!!

 

[JarlFrank]

It's hard to compare the two. First of all, different engines. IWD2 has Infinity Engine combat, while ToEE has some of the best turn based D&D combat ever. Also, I like the graphics in IWD2 better, they have such a hand-drawn feel to them. Better athmosphere and writing, too. But ToEE is the better game, since both are about combat and ToEE does it better.

 

[someone else]

TBC > RTwP = ToEE \o/

 

[DemonKing]

IWD2 was better.

Both games had a protracted development schedule but at least BIS managed to release a relatively bug-free, enjoyable and complete game in the time provided.

TOEE had decent graphics and a very good combat engine, but everything else was pretty awful. Also the engine was wasted in that too few encounters were actually challenging due to the designers slavish devotion to the original D&D module.

 

[Black]

Black- hating Infinity engines since Big Bang.
ToEE wins.

 

[inwoker]

He's back. Now you all are doomed.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Hi, Adnahadrihanaira.

 

[Vibalist]

I've had a decent amount of fun with both. TOEE has superior graphics and combat, and like Cloaked Figure I love how you can change the look of your characters by equipping them with hats, capes and whatnot. IWD2 has a superior setting, but since they're both heavy on combat, TOEE wins because of turn based.

How I'd love to see a roleplaying game in the vein of BG2 or Torment with ToEE's combat engine...

 

[mondblut]

TBC > RTwP = ToEE \o/

 

[janjetina]

In two combat oriented games, a game with a better combat system wins.

TBC > RTwP = ToEE \o/

 

[Melcar]

I enjoyed IWD2 more. However, neither game was worth more than 2 re-plays.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

In two combat oriented games, a game with a better combat system wins.

Not in the least. Encounter design makes all the difference, and Temple of Elemental Evil was terrible in this regard. Want to fight endless, unchallenging bugbears and such that are so loaded with potions they don't use it makes the rest of the game quite easy but be able to have a great (but almost useless) combat system that only ever is used to the fullest in less than 5% of encounters? Get Temple of Elemental Evil. Really Troika's lowpoint.

Want an okay combat system with some superb encounter design punctuated by some overwrought pieces like the time-travel thing and some goofy design decisions? Get Icewind Dale 2. I can definitely see Sawyer's creativity in the parts he was given time to work on before Herve started canning people.

 

[Darth Roxor]

the time-travel thing.

I may have played IWD2 some relatively long time ago, so my memory might be failing me, but I don't quite recall anything like that.

 

[Melcar]

the time-travel thing.

I may have played IWD2 some relatively long time ago, so my memory might be failing me, but I don't quite recall anything like that.

The ultra buggy craptacular caves with the fire giants and the salamanders. It was just one area and you had no way of skipping it. You just went back a few minutes, so it was nothing spectacular. There is no puzzle to solve or anything (not that I remember); you just had to forcibly travel back a few times (every fucking time) to be able to pass the area.
I may be wrong on the railroading aspect, but I do remember it just being painfully awful and ultra dull.

 

[janjetina]

In two combat oriented games, a game with a better combat system wins.

Not in the least. Encounter design makes all the difference, and Temple of Elemental Evil was terrible in this regard. Want to fight endless, unchallenging bugbears and such that are so loaded with potions they don't use it makes the rest of the game quite easy but be able to have a great (but almost useless) combat system that only ever is used to the fullest in less than 5% of encounters? Get Temple of Elemental Evil. Really Troika's lowpoint.

Want an okay combat system with some superb encounter design punctuated by some overwrought pieces like the time-travel thing and some goofy design decisions? Get Icewind Dale 2. I can definitely see Sawyer's creativity in the parts he was given time to work on before Herve started canning people.

I only have played IWD 2 once and it was a long time ago, but, incidentally, the only thing I remember from IWD 2 is fighting too many unchallenging bugbears.

 

[oldschool]

In two combat oriented games, a game with a better combat system wins.

TBC > RTwP = ToEE \o/

 

[Darth Roxor]

the time-travel thing.

I may have played IWD2 some relatively long time ago, so my memory might be failing me, but I don't quite recall anything like that.

The ultra buggy craptacular caves with the fire giants and the salamanders. It was just one area and you had no way of skipping it. You just went back a few minutes, so it was nothing spectacular. There is no puzzle to solve or anything (not that I remember); you just had to forcibly travel back a few times (every fucking time) to be able to pass the area.
I may be wrong on the railroading aspect, but I do remember it just being painfully awful and ultra dull.

Ah, thaaat one, yes, now I remember. Well, what bugged me a bit there, was that you could stand on your head, tell everyone what will happen, give the lava lord guy (or whatever he was anyway) antidotes and stuff, and that would still lead to nothing. But apart from that, I didn't find that area to be bad or anything.

 

[Livonya]

Unfortunantly, I have to go with IWD2 because it was not shipped out unfinished.

I played it and compleated it without having to mod it.

ToEE would have been a much, muuch, much better game but it was so badly unfinshed that I spent years modding it and never even finished the fucking game.

I am sure I got more $$ value out of ToEE as it maintained my attention for a long time, but not because it was a good game. It maintained that attention because it had the potential to be a great game.

So frustrating.

I hate quarterly corporate profit reports. If Atari executives weren't trying to up their quarterly report they would have given Troika more time to finish the damn game.

How annoying.

- Livonya

 

[FeelTheRads]

I am sure I got more $$ value out of ToEE

I hate quarterly corporate profit reports.

And yet, like many other people you judge the game by whether it was worth the money or not, which is kinda ridiculous when you have someone saying "well, I got this game which sucks, but I paid 10 bucks for it so I'm happy".
NO! That's not the good way. If it sucks it sucks and that's it. Final. Be it free or commercial, suckyness can not be alleviated. Grow some fucking balls.

Still, I guess I understand what you mean, but I hope you realize it sounds hypocritical when you also say you dislike companies for their never ending greed.

 

[Raapys]

IWD2 because it has sorcerer and high levels.

 

[Relayer71]

I've tried to like both titles and couldn't.

IWD 2 started out ok but that ice palace drove me nuts. And then after that those woods.
Got to the woods (forgot the name - was it Fellwood?) twice and both times quit playing.

The pacing up until that point was just poor, nothing like the first game.

TOEE had great combat but the dialogue and quests in the town of Hommlet put me to sleep. So uninspired.

I would have to say IWD 2 is better but that's not saying a whole lot.

 

[zodden]

IWD 2 I enjoyed more. I finished TOEE but it was so buggy I almost gave up in frustration. IWD 2 had no such problems.

Now the Co8 people have put so much time into ToEE that maybe I would feel different with another go of it. You could instantly see that the game had potential. I will give it a go with their fixes one of these days.

 

[1eyedking]

IWD2 because it has sorcerer and high levels.

Fuck yes.

 

[Livonya]

Still, I guess I understand what you mean, but I hope you realize it sounds hypocritical when you also say you dislike companies for their never ending greed.

I am not saying I hate companies for their greed.

I am saying I hate the way corporate quarterly profits destort businesses into making bad choices.

ToEE would have made a LOT more money if they would have finished the game, but Atari wasn't interested in making more money, they were interested in improving their quarterly report... so in the end they did something that helped them on paper, but actually hurt their company in the long run.

This is a serious problem with the corporate system that prevents companies from having long term vision.

The reason a lot of very buggy/unfinished games are released is due to this corporate quarterly system. It is an ongoing problem.

Here are the two choices:

1) Release ToEE unfinished, but improve their quarterly report. ToEE gets slammed with bad reviews, and clearly the game is broken. It takes several years for modders to fix the game. Overall sales are damaged, and the title has no chance for a sequal.

2) Put more resources into ToEE so the game is finished. Atari has a less than steller quarterly report, but they release a finished game that gets much better reviews. They sell a lot more copies, and they eventually release one or more sequals.

ToEE had the potential to be one of the best D&D games ever released. It could have easily spawned a franchise, and would still be selling today if it had been finished and polished.

Seriously, even as it is now the engine is really good. It had fantastic potential. But Atari cut off their arm to save their fingers.

In the long run Atari made less money pushing out a game before it was finished.

- Livonya

 

[Hazelnut]

Agree with you 100% Liv.