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Grand Strategy Imperator: Rome - the new grand strategy from Paradox

Zeriel

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Joined
Jun 17, 2012
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Do battles still go on for weeks?

You know, I'd rather Padadox simulated campaigning rather than pitched battles - it would make more sense on the map.

Would even allow evading mechanisms for raiding

Time to port the HoI4 front-line system and AI to Imperator.

I'd nope the fuck out of there, HOI4 is such a mess in all the core mechanics, the only thing's I'd port from it is tangential ideas that were kind of cool like national focuses tree with branching "narratives", nation strength sliders to let players customize their game more, etc. Treating every single unit as its own "army" is so fucked beyond repair, I mean maybe its a nice idea conceptually but like a lot of things Paradox does their engine can't handle it.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,272
After a honemoon period with PDX, RoP is changing his tune:


Interesting, he was banned from pre-release access for saying that the game was EU:Rome but with mana. The exact same conclusion I came to. Apparently Paradox considers an honest comparison like this as enough reason to ban their paid advertisers, meaning they know the game is junk.
 

Anthedon

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
yd2x6uqrr7w21.png


b3f.gif
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
The question is, does Paradox respond with, OK guys, the game disappointed a metric ton of our loyal fans, we'll try and do our best at this late juncture with some aggressive feature overhauls and free patches? Or pretend everything is fine and release some China DLCs, taking some more giant steps towards "cannot create anything anymore, just shittily copypaste old glories"?

What really gets me is the idiotic idea that "you should have known the game will be like this based on dev diaries and other pdox releases, lol shame on you for being disappointed". If you sell a shitburger it doesn't make it any better that you ran a 12-part TV ad series showing exactly what turds it's made of.

(Of course, the fact is that a halfway proper Antiquity grand strategy game remains so compelling that I can't help but wish the game would be good. The last thing I wanted was for it to suck, but...)
 

sser

Arcane
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Mar 10, 2011
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1,866,895
I was all in on this game until watching those streams. Glad I did, too, cause I usually don't and just buy a game blind. But in those streams it was pretty apparent the game was not ready and its designs were a mess. Still pisses me right off cause this is a goldmine of a time period.
 

Catacombs

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I was all in on this game until watching those streams. Glad I did, too, cause I usually don't and just buy a game blind. But in those streams it was pretty apparent the game was not ready and its designs were a mess. Still pisses me right off cause this is a goldmine of a time period.

Definitely a missed opportunity. Oh, well.
 

ZeniBot

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mmm This feels so good to see them in the red. Paradox needed a good kick in their swede-cuck balls. Looks like another March of Eagles for them.
Maybe if their shitty developers had listened to people during their streams none of this would've happened.

Funny seeing the buyers remorse sinking in on people's Twitch channels. Its gold seeing their frustration growing.
 

AwesomeButton

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What's been stopping me so far is the fact that I haven't bought the game, but if he comes out again and starts rambling about how they have a roadmap, I'll log in to tell him that I also have a roadmap, and it has only one point - buyng a finished product. Paying $40/EUR for a "good foundation" won't fly with me, and I'll urge everyone to keep their money unil they know what they are spending it on.
 
Joined
May 8, 2018
Messages
3,535
Hello!

It is been a rocky launch in some aspects, with part of the community unhappy. While it is not Hoi3, there are still issues, and I want to make sure you understand that we are looking at them.

Technical Issues

It looks like we have addressed most of the incompatibility issues, and that the game had heavy stuttering on some machines. It is something we will continue to fix immediately as they prop up.

Barebones Games

This is the feedback that I just do not understand. I took everything we had in Rome I, and made every mechanic deeper and more complex, while adding lots more new mechanics to make it into a game. This game was developed the same way we did EU4 and HOI2, the previous games I’ve been most satisfied with, where we used all the original gameplay code of the previous game, and just built upon that.

I’ve not cut away anything when making Imperator to add into future expansions, and every game-mechanic, and lots more, we had planned was in the original 1.0.

I have said before launch that this is the best game I’ve made, and I stand by it still. 1.0 of Imperator is the best 1.0 we have ever made of a game.

Missing UI / Bad UX

I agree that there are things in the UI that is suboptimal. Some screens are bigger than they could be, like the province interface, and some do not have all the information you may need. We are all working on improving that. Some UI I deemed as optional as we ran lower on time, and I wanted to prioritise the gameplay experience, so those will come in patches.
  • Multiplayer Chat will eventually come, but not in 1.1
  • Ledger, I regret cutting it, but there will be a first version in 1.1
  • Macrobuilding functionality: While we hadn’t planned diplomatic or army template macrobuilder for 1.0, we should have focused on having better interface for impact of what you are building.
  • Colonisation & Pop Management. It is functional, but not optimal. We definitely need to improve here.

Here is a small peek at a work in progress UI...

ux_tweak.png


Bad AI

Ironically, this is the game we spent the most resources in writing AI for, both in time and people. Instead of a basically reactive AI, that had no goal, and reusing old mechanics, we decided to write this AI as a new proactive system working with plans.

I understand that effort and intent is not the same as result, but AI was something we did focus a lot on.

Power / Abstracted Currencies

I understand that there is a part of the community that dislike abstracted currencies like prestige, monarch power, influence or political power, they do make it into games that are possible to balance and

In 1.1, with us adding stability, war exhaustion, aggressive expansion and tyranny to the price structure, you could make a really good mod, replacing all power costs with impacts on those attributes. Such a mod could also completely make the instant culture conversion of a pop cost tyranny instead, making it something you do not want to do in bulk, or you could make changing an idea cost 5 stability, which is not much in direct cost, but limits you in other ways.

The base game will continue to use these currencies, as they make for a better game, but I acknowledge that there is a group of people who dislike them, and prefer another experience, so we will improve the game, to be able to support it.

Lack of Flavor

There has been a lot of feedback of the game about how most countries just feel the same to play, and there are no variations. While most people appreciate that there is enough difference between settled tribes, migratory tribes, monarchies and republics, there is not much difference between the different tribes other than their starting location.

While we did not view this is a flaw, we hear you, and will add some distinct flavor to 1.1, some new to our games, and some familiar.

First of all, we are adding bonuses to each religion, so that different religions have different impacts. That in itself does not make the game suddenly great, but it gives a bit more flavor.

Secondly, we are diversifying Omens, so that different religions, or even different countries can have unique omens for them. We will go into more details on this soon.

Finally, we are adding something we call Heritages to countries. This is something they start with, which gives 2 bonuses and 1 drawback. There will be lots of “generic” heritages for countries, which depends on their geography, but we aim to add as many unique ones as possible in 1.1, and then keep adding them.

heritage.png


Percieved Shallowness

A lot of the things that happens has not been visible enough to the player, like you don’t see the things characters do with each other. This will be changed for 1.1, where you will be able to always see what a character is up to, besides just an ambition.

Another thing is that the game has been tuned so a lot of the mechanics is not required to think about, especially when you are a big power. I’ve seen a lot of comments about how great the game is when you play smaller, compared to Rome where you just rofl-stomp everything, and don’t have to care about any challenges. One thing we are reworking in 1.1, is how a characters “power base” is calculated, which is the amount of troops, holdings, wealth or territory he or she may hold, and that power base will have much more impact.

Content

It is hard to compare content between various games, but Imperator shipped with the same amount of events as Victoria 2 with expansions, and more than any game had at release besides CK2.

We also had more character interactions than CK2 at release, and a similar amount of diplomatic actions and relations as EU4 had at release.

Of course, when you have been playing games that have 5-10k of events,dozens upon dozens of unique systems, any new game, no matter how much content they have, will feel light.

We will continue to add more content at each update, with a nice chunk on focus on Italy in 1.1, but it will take years of expansions and patches until Imperator reaches

Cheers everyone, and tomorrow Trin Tragula will show off what we have been doing for 1.1.

/Johan
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Barebones Games

This is the feedback that I just do not understand. I took everything we had in Rome I,
you mean the game you released 11 years ago that a lot of people didn't like?
and made every mechanic deeper and more complex, while adding lots more new mechanics to make it into a game.
:nocountryforshitposters:
Arguing with your fans is a really interesting idea.

So it's a really complex game and you see no way you could have added more to it, right?

Then tell me: what's the first DLC you had planned?

Percieved Shallowness

A lot of the things that happens has not been visible enough to the player, like you don’t see the things characters do with each other. This will be changed for 1.1, where you will be able to always see what a character is up to, besides just an ambition.

Another thing is that the game has been tuned so a lot of the mechanics is not required to think about, especially when you are a big power. I’ve seen a lot of comments about how great the game is when you play smaller, compared to Rome where you just rofl-stomp everything, and don’t have to care about any challenges. One thing we are reworking in 1.1, is how a characters “power base” is calculated, which is the amount of troops, holdings, wealth or territory he or she may hold, and that power base will have much more impact.
This is a start, but I kind of wonder if this wasn't already in the works for an expansion.

Also, I still see no realization of the fact that things like omens, instant claims etc water down the game into casual trash, so I'm guessing that this is by design.
:dead:
 

AwesomeButton

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What do we do when we've been designing games around mana for 6+ years, and the plebs suddenly decide they don't like mana?!
 

Fedora Master

STOP POSTING
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Edgy
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I have found nothing in the game that runs "behind the scenes". The character interactions are shallow because THERE ARE NONE. The possibility for behind the scenes interactions aren't there because the systems for them do not currently exist - You can't even fucking marry people into foreign families.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
What do we do when we've been designing games around mana for 6+ years, and the plebs suddenly decide they don't like mana?!
I don't think there's been a Pdox game to where the mana has been this noticeable before, mostly because the mana is so abstract and obvious, and the bonuses come so quickly.

Also, there's just not much to the game to distract you from it or to maintain an illusion of a functional game world.

The mana rarely gets used for other maintenance the way minerals or energy would in Stellaris, so you really are just waiting turns and buying spells omens.

Even in CK2, your money, piety etc would fluctuate over time with tons of events to spend points on and it was used for far more than just buying bonuses to tax etc.
 
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Fedora Master

STOP POSTING
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Different cultures and governments also had different uses for their mana, like prestige mattering much more for tribals or piety to change Muslim laws. That's another easy way to differentiate things they didn't even consider.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,272
At least in EU4 a mana excess would just let you be ahead of time a bit on tech and have some other small advantages like quicker idea groups. EU4 has reached a sort of fine balance where you generally have as much mana as you need and could want to do whatever you want within a reasonable time frame unless what you want is to conquer a whole continent.

In Imperator if you had, say, 2x as much mana per month, you'd be an unbeatable god. Everyone is basically forever mana-starved for the green and the blue. And unlike EU4, in Imperator you don't run out of mana expanding, you run out of mana just standing still. Needing to constantly pay mana to fix governor policies and bribe people (with fucking mana lol) and stop loyal cohorts from revolting and keep good relations and make trade routes is basically running on a treadmill and pissing blue down your legs.

Nothing CK2 has is mana. Anything thinking they are even close fundamentally misunderstands the concept. Prestige and Piety are statistics that are earned by players the exact same way that gold is.
 

Fishy

Savant
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Jan 24, 2019
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Ireland
Well, that's fairly disappointing. Was looking forward to it but didn't pick it up straight away because I'm still bitter about how meh Stellaris turned out to be and how their solution to game balance was to turn space into the same 2d map to paint as in all their other games. In hindsight, that was a blessing. I'm amazed at the lack of choice in starting date. They make a game based on the effing Roman Republic, yet there's no option to start a game in the era of Marius? Or the Triumvirate? Or the Caesar/Pompey civil war? Sure, I expect all that is part of the events that will happen in game, but by then I expect the maps and alliances to be ridiculously off and feel nothing like the period.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Power / Abstracted Currencies

I understand that there is a part of the community that dislike abstracted currencies like prestige, monarch power, influence or political power, they do make it into games that are possible to balance and

In 1.1, with us adding stability, war exhaustion, aggressive expansion and tyranny to the price structure, you could make a really good mod, replacing all power costs with impacts on those attributes. Such a mod could also completely make the instant culture conversion of a pop cost tyranny instead, making it something you do not want to do in bulk, or you could make changing an idea cost 5 stability, which is not much in direct cost, but limits you in other ways.

The base game will continue to use these currencies, as they make for a better game, but I acknowledge that there is a group of people who dislike them, and prefer another experience, so we will improve the game, to be able to support it.

I tried playing Tylos which is all foreign cultures and foreign religions. Sounds like an interesting problem to have but then you press a button and something awesome has to happen so button awesome.

That's just not a history game.
 

Agame

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This is a start, but I kind of wonder if this wasn't already in the works for an expansion.

Also, I still see no realization of the fact that things like omens, instant claims etc water down the game into casual trash, so I'm guessing that this is by design.

Initially I did think this was an experiment, in part to see how much they can get away with releasing a "shell" of a game with all the content in DLC, and also making a game as casual friendly as possible. Everything about I:R design screams mobile/facebook "click the win button".

Reading that last statement from Johan shows how utterly disconnected from reality and the player base he is, so its either PR, and they are now scrambling to add in stuff they planned for post launch DLC as they realize they finally pushed the filthy plebs to far and they are revolting. Or alternatively Johan really is that much of an incompetent hack and he actually believes "1.0 of Imperator is the best 1.0 we have ever made of a game."

Someone at Paradox needs to grow some balls and step up to Johan and explain to him that "mana" is not the problem, its his shitty uninspired systems that are the problem. I foresee until this guy retires we are going to continue to have terrible mediocre releases from Paradox.
 

Tigranes

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Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Reading Johan posts in that thread beyond the big OP, I don't think it is some conspiracy to hollow out the game as much as possible and all. I think he personally believes mana makes the game better (that is one thing he says explicitly again and again) and that against the yardstick of it being EU Rome sequel, he truly thinks its a good 1.0 release.

The old rule - attribute to incompetence when possible, not some malicious mastermind plot - applies here.

He fails to understand 2 very key issues for why the game isnt just panned by hardcore fans but everybody in a really extreme way.
  1. First, that people arent asking for a full-dlc level content, but that people will compare the product on offer with other products on the shelf in some way, and failure to anticipate that is their failure and not the customers being crazy and irrational. It doesnt help that EU Rome isnt exactly a glowing beacon in the pdox portfolio historically.
  2. Mana may not always be bad in any form, but it is obvious that insta-fix everything mana as the foundation for all gameplay is idiotic browser crap. If he cant see that then future pdox games by him will be progressively crappier shadows of the old titles.
in terms of concrete steps for imperator i actually think it is good of him and pdox to come oit and be clear about what they will do, and their plans are fairly extensive. But it is disappointing that they dont seem to understand the 2 really important factors that have made so many loyal customers very unhappy.
 

ZeniBot

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Johans arguments can be summed up as:

"No! ITS NOT THAT BAD! we had a whole bunch of hidden shit turned off that we thought you guys wouldn't be interested. But we can always turn them on, I give an eta of about 24-48 Months (or about the time it takes to release a new game)."
 

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