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Immersive Sims

Sinder Velvin

Arcane
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
413
I don't agree 100% with the picture below but I think it's a pretty good description of the genre.
A810F8DA86094F5D60E9D5571C2415C02190A988

90s millennials keep trying to mess up the immersive sim canon...

It's like that time when a ranking on YouTube was so nonsensical it summoned RaphCol himself:

5cIwPkh.png
 
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ind33d

Learned
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Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,805
Calling the Bioshocks "Immersive Sims" but not the Watch Dogs games seems weird. You barely have to interact with Bioshock or Infinite's mechanics at all to progress. It's practically Halo with fireballs. On the other hand, Watch Dogs has Hitman missions in an open world with traffic and AI and emergent gameplay. I think the reason W_D isn't an Imsim is because it's third-person. Meanwhile CP2077 is first-person, so it still counts as an Immersive Sim, admittedly not a perfect one.
 

Sinder Velvin

Arcane
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
413
Wasn't Underworld considered shit on Codex?

In the prestigious all-time ranking of RPGs from 2014, Ultima Underworld was #20 and Ultima Underworld II was #54, which is pretty good.

Unfortunately, a lot of monocled codexers had died from old age or had retired and been replaced by 90s millennials by the time of the 2019 all-time ranking, and thus Ultima Underworld was then only #37 and Ultima Underworld II was #93... which still isn't anything like "considered shit", but is very worrying.
 

LarryTyphoid

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
2,233
>invisible war above fucking thief gold
>mankind divided anywhere near the top 10 let alone the fucking #1 spot
Holy shit, I knew this guy was a retard but I didn't know he was this bad. And I don't agree with Colantonio saying 'those games fantastic at their time". Thief Gold is a million times better than half the games on that list at ANY time, not just at the time of its release.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,413
In the prestigious all-time ranking of RPGs from 2014, Ultima Underworld was #20 and Ultima Underworld II was #54, which is pretty good.

Unfortunately, a lot of monocled codexers had died from old age or had retired and been replaced by 90s millennials by the time of the 2019 all-time ranking, and thus Ultima Underworld was then only #37 and Ultima Underworld II was #93... which still isn't anything like "considered shit", but is very worrying.
I meant "Underworld: Ascendant" specifically, not "Ultima Underworld 1-2". Since that guy Raphael Colantonio said "Underworld" I thought he meant the former (being #25 on the list), otherwise he surely would've said "Ultima" as most people - from what I've seen - tend to refer to the Ultima series.
 

Sinder Velvin

Arcane
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
413
I meant "Underworld: Ascendant" specifically, not "Ultima Underworld 1-2". Since that guy Raphael Colantonio said "Underworld" I thought he meant the former (being #25 on the list), otherwise he surely would've said "Ultima" as most people - from what I've seen - tend to refer to the Ultima series.

We've found a 90s millennial, guys.
 

LarryTyphoid

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
2,233
I meant "Underworld: Ascendant" specifically, not "Ultima Underworld 1-2". Since that guy Raphael Colantonio said "Underworld" I thought he meant the former (being #25 on the list), otherwise he surely would've said "Ultima" as most people - from what I've seen - tend to refer to the Ultima series.
Yes, Underworld: Ascendant was an abortion and everyone regards it as such.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
750
To echo what the guynecologist and DJOGamer PT have said:

https://rosodudemods.wordpress.com/2020/12/14/immersive-sim-is-a-design-philosophy-not-a-genre/

“Immersive Sim” is a Design Philosophy, not a Genre​

[...]
In brief, I’d argue that a game consists of mechanics (actions the player can take), systems (rules governing interactions), and some form of challenge brought on by a goal. Typically, game genres are thus classified according to their mechanics, systems, and/or structure of challenges. First person shooters are defined by shooting mechanics; role-playing games by character development systems; roguelike/lite games by procedurally generated challenges with permadeath, etc. It is worth noting, then, that the canonical Immersive Sims share relatively few of these basic elements between them. Ultima Underworld (along with Arx Fatalis) is a dungeon crawler RPG set in a single interconnected game world. System Shock is a dungeon crawler FPS hybrid with the same world structure as Ultima Underworld but none of the NPC interaction and no RPG elements. Thief TDP and TMA are mission-based stealth action games with no RPG elements, minimal shooting, and linear progression of levels. System Shock 2 is an FPS/RPG similar to its predecessor but more focused on combat and character building than nonlinear exploration. Deus Ex is a stealth action/FPS/RPG where each mission can span multiple levels which cannot be returned to once the mission is complete. There are barely any shared genre trappings between every one of these games other than being real-time and playing from the first-person perspective – rather, they tend to hybridize elements from various game genres. However, most would agree that there is a design through line that intersects them all, owing to the collective sensibilities of their creators. Thus, the Immersive Sim describes a design philosophy rather than a genuine game genre in its own right. Given the small number of concrete commonalities between classic ImSims, any classification should ideally be constructed from the minimal set of characteristics shared between them all. The qualities that I believe characterize the Immersive Sim design philosophy are as follows:
  1. Real-time gameplay from the (usually first-person) perspective of a single player character
  2. Influence from role-playing games, particularly in promoting player agency
  3. Systems-driven gameplay with a focus on simulation
As I understand it, “Immersive” comes mostly from #1 since the player is directly behind the eyes of the player character in real time (this is debatable as immersion is a higher-order result of various factors which are highly subjective), and “Sim” mostly comes from #3, as the rules (systems) that define gameplay are largely derived from simulating interactions with the game world in a believable manner. The biggest thing that the name misses is #2, which is a subtler element to pin down since it’s both a comment of history (i.e. the ethos of Ultima Underworld was to make an immersive dungeon crawler RPG that replaced dicerolls with computer simulation wherever possible) and also of structure (the player should have open-ended goals that allow them to apply the various tools at their disposal in a logical manner). It’s #2 that seems to draw most players to ImSims as a sort of secret sauce that holds the experience together. Moreover, it’s more of a design goal than a descriptive quality, and thus has a subjective component that makes it rather difficult to concretely pin down. However, we can look for examples in classic ImSims.
[...]

the guynecologist has explained how Dark Engine games implement simulated systems on a technical level, and my article gives some concrete examples of emergent gameplay on the player's side (see also my article on player agency for examples of emergent challenge which is often overlooked compared to emergent strategies). The essence of the design philosophy is that Immersive Sims should be systems-driven (rather than mechanics-driven, as in a beat 'em up/platformer/shooter), those systems should be simulationist (rather than abstract, such that you can use real-world logic to intuit the rules). These together make for emergent situations as the entities in the simulation interact according to consistent rules. Players coming up with solutions the designer didn't anticipate is a good shorthand, but emergence is really about gameplay emerging from a multitude of elements interacting that are so numerous as to be chaotically unpredictable, and thus engender agency and depth.

Ultima Underworld, being the oldest examplar of this tradition, absolutely qualifies because of how much simulation they crammed into every element of the game. Every item has physics; there's a passage of time that makes you hungry, makes torches go out (even while sleeping), and makes food get stale/rotten; clothing and weapons degrade with use; weapons impart realistic damage to doors at a cost; and of course there's the grammatical rune-based magic system that lets you manipulate objects in a ton of interesting ways beyond casting magic missile or buffing strength, such as grabbing repairing objects, grabbing items telekinetically, barricading doors, enabling night vision, silencing your footsteps, or concealing your body. The NPC interactions are surprisingly deep beyond the clever dialogue which proceeds in a typical modal interface (though it's worth harping on just how clever the writing is, from having to learn the lizardman language to mountainmen becoming irate if you call them "dwarves"); every creature has a disposition towards you which can change depending on your actions beyond just attacking them, such as forcefully demanding their items during a barter (which entails trading actual objects moreso than money); different creatures detect you based on sight and sound perception, such that you can escape and hide from alerted enemies by extinguishing your torch and wearing softer boots. The skill system, despite some major flaws in balance, is designed to enhance the simulation by representing your player's senses, knowledge, and training, such that the Lore skill is as useful as any of the combat skills as it allows you to surmise the utility and state of objects that most games would convey to you automatically by simple omniscience.

Does the Elder Scrolls have some of this too? Well yeah, of course, because Arena and Daggerfall were directly inspired by Ultima Underworld. Bethesda opted for breadth over depth with procedurally generated content in their massive worlds, but you can see a lot of the same ideas and intentions at work, some persisting even as far as Oblivion (with most of these elements discarded by the time you get to Skyrim). I think it's worth noting that the survival needs, passage of time, and object simulation in Ultima Underworld play a much bigger role than similar systems play in The Elder Scrolls, which to me indicates that they weren't working with the Immersive Sim design philosophy writ large, though you'll of course find similarities as they tried to create immersive worlds with tons of player freedom. Going in totally the other direction, you'll even find similarities even with Half-Life, which for all its scripted setpieces still has a core of simulation at the heart of its AI design, player toolset, and obstacles constructed from reusable game elements like tripwires, headcrabs, crates, explosives etc. Deus Ex lead designer Harvey Smith has a good write-up on Half-Life from back when he played the game in 1998 which touches on these aspects. It's clearly not an Immersive Sim as you're railroaded down a single path which is designed to always reset you to a certain baseline in resources and character state with not a whole lot of variation in approach, but you can see that Valve were inspired by the likes of System Shock just as much as Doom.

I'd argue that the technical implementation of ImSims doesn't necessarily matter, because while the Dark Engine was extremely ahead of its time and truly built for purpose in creating simulated game worlds (see Tom Leonard's Thief postmortem for more on its strengths), Ion Storm managed to staple Deus Ex onto Unreal Engine 1, which uses a traditional object-oriented singleton design pattern where everything is an object and all the interactions are coded explicitly in the methods of each class which hold references to manager objects to deal with global state. Having spent 2 years modding Deus Ex and 3 years modding System Shock 2 I can tell you that DX's codebase is truly heinous stuff, but it still checks all the boxes because the totality of explicit interactions between game entities still manages to create deep and engaging player-driven gameplay. As Warren Spector noted, a lot of Deus Ex's simulation is really just faked with smoke and mirrors due to the limitations of Unreal, and ultimately Harvey Smith led the team to shift the game's design towards granular RPG upgrades and resource management because the original attempts to build organic simulated interactions between player mechanics and game entities wasn't sufficiently interesting. What they landed on was an adventure/stealth/FPS/RPG hybrid that is lauded mostly for its excellent level design. Even though the skill/aug balance was piss poor, the ballistics simulation laughably lopsided, and the stealth AI dumb as rocks, we remember exploring Hell's Kitchen for intel on the NSF's illicit EMP generator, seeing the path from Osgood and Sons branch out from the laser tripwire basement to the sniper-guarded rooftops or from the explosive-laden alleyways to the sewers which each lead to a different level of the warehouse, whose generator can be destroyed by hacking a computer or using a password obtained from a hostage earlier in the level, or just blowing it up with explosives. That's when the game clicked for me, at least, and though now I can see all of the little tricks they used, there are few games that can pull off that sense of a real world with real rules that I had to understand and plan around to achieve my goals. The other games that come to mind are other ImSims like Thief, System Shock, Underworld/Arx Fatalis, and Pathologic 2.

As an aside, C++ style object-oriented programming can go fuck itself. How such an inefficient and overwrought mess became the dominant programming paradigm for every application, I'll never know.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
750
Charlatan Wonder truly lives up to the name. The guy made a video going over the history Immersive Sims, and it was riddled with factual inaccuracies (as well as the crime of saying Bioshock is a worthy successor to System Shock 2). I wrote a respectful comment outlining the issues with the video, and he scrubbed the comment and blocked me from the channel.

“The Rise, Fall, Death, and Rebirth of the Immersive Sim” by Charlatan Wonder

I left a long comment on this guy's video pointing out its numerous errors, which was well received by viewers (720 likes). However, a few months later he blocked me from the channel due to this criticism (this is the only interaction I've had with him). Which means no one but me can see my comment, even if I link to it directly. So I'm going to be equally petty and rehost my comment here so you can see what I was working with
[...]
 

ds

Cipher
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here
I think you are right that the critical part is not how the system interactions are implemented but that the world reacts to the player's actions in a way is both logical and offers interesting ways to approach situations. Arx Fatalis is also mostly scripted instead of relying on detailed simulation. For example at the start instead of whacking the goblin prison guard you can make him fall down the chute. Wen you drop down to the next level yourself you will find a corpse there as you might expect (let's ignore that the player doesn't take damage from the fall at all). But that's 100% scripted. The dead goblin isn't even the same entity as the one that fell in the chute as the engine doesn't support NPCs teleporting between levels. But what matters is that the game keeps up the illusion of a realistically simulated world by providing you with options that you should realistically have.
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,805
Calling Dark Messiah an immersive sim but not the Elder Scrolls games is cracked

If Ultima Underworld is an imsim, how is Daggerfall not? Come on now
 

DJOGamer PT

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Apr 8, 2015
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Lusitânia
As an aside, C++ style object-oriented programming can go fuck itself. How such an inefficient and overwrought mess became the dominant programming paradigm for every application, I'll never know.
For videogames specifically, what is in your opinion the most efficient programming language?
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Messages
697
the guynecologiste, RoSoDude since you're both talking about simulated dynamic systems that interact with each other, what about Roguelikes? Nethack, Dwarf Fortress, Cataclysm Dark Days Ahead, ADOM.. they are the king for this:



The only thing missing is the first person view and real time gameplay to be a properly immersive sim, according to your definition.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
750
As an aside, C++ style object-oriented programming can go fuck itself. How such an inefficient and overwrought mess became the dominant programming paradigm for every application, I'll never know.
For videogames specifically, what is in your opinion the most efficient programming language?
I don't know too much about modern languages. I hear good things about Rust (multi-paradigm emphasizing functional programming, highly performant, memory safe, concurrent), but as a new open source language the documentation and support aren't too mature. The cop-out answer (that is nonetheless true) is it depends on what kind of game you're making and how you're planning to make it. If you're an indie developer creating a bespoke engine for your game, you'll want a language that doesn't fight against you to implement the appropriate design pattern, has good memory management strategies, has decent documentation/support, and preferably isn't modeled after C++ or Java. If you're using an existing engine like many indies, then choose whatever toolset is suitable to the type of game you're making.

I'm personally in favor of the data-oriented Entity Component System design pattern, which is basically what Dark Engine was doing before the concept was popularized. In ECS, components (in the jargon of Dark, properties) like Physics, AI, Rendering, Sound, Act/React (for sending, receiving, and modifying stims), etc. are attached to entities, which are just IDs for things the game world, as opposed to objects in a traditional sense. The distinction is that unlike in C++ style object-oriented programming, the entity itself does not implement any logic, rather it's the components composing the entity (or the overarching system that manages the components, this is ECS vs just EC) that implement the functionality. So your physics system handles the physics calculations for all entities with physics components, your AI system handles the AI behaviors for all entities with AI components, etc. This is generally way more performant than encapsulating data with logic as in OOP because it can cache together all of the data that needs to be stepped through by the component at each update. I also think it's just more reasonable as far as making extensible game systems and enabling designers to build out entity behaviors without an explicit hierarchy of classes. ECS architectures are really compatible with event-driven programming, where most of the game behavior is driven by messages received by entities -- the stim and response concept the guynecologist detailed is just one example of this, as all Dark's scripts are 100% driven by event handlers that listen for messages like create, turnon/turnoff, frob, damage, equip, physcontact, stimulus, or any other custom message sent by any entities, which then subsequently process changes to the component data (like health, stack count, animation state, etc.) and sends messages to any other relevant object. It's really an excellent paradigm for simulating interactions between entities, because if you think about it, all an entity needs to know about an interaction is "what is my state, what is acting on me, and what should I do in response?" where the broader component system handles the details associated with the affected components that compose the entity.

I have personally enjoyed the separate scripting layer that exists on top of Dark's ECS model, as it allows me to easily add and modify game behaviors by attaching custom scripts to entities (which in NewDark are compiled at runtime from text files), but I know engines these days are moving away from scripting extensions, preferring visual scripting languages like Unreal's Blueprints if they support them at all, which I personally dislike just from an application UI/UX perspective. Adding interfaces to your components for a separate scripting language with a separate compiler is definitely a pain, and can also be very error-prone if you let the designer go overboard with their scripts. As a modder, an isolated sandbox that allows me to work around the existing game engine with little risk of crashing or breaking core game functionality is exactly what I want, though -- the damage I can do by writing a shitty script is usually limited to the script itself throwing errors and halting. If that happens, then my script can't request any changes to the component data through the interface, which has no effect on the engine's component system running properly. The actual worst thing I can do with scripts in NewDark is overload the engine with a ton of expensive calls to the scripting interface, which I've only managed to do once with a runaway iterator loop.

Do take everything I say with a grain of salt as I only mod games as a hobby, while everything I do for my work is functional/procedural code that is never intended for any user but myself.
 
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Dave the Druid

Educated
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Dec 29, 2022
Messages
193
Good write-up as per usual RoSoDude. Only thing I'd disagree with you on is this:
As I understand it, “Immersive” comes mostly from #1 since the player is directly behind the eyes of the player character in real time (this is debatable as immersion is a higher-order result of various factors which are highly subjective), and “Sim” mostly comes from #3, as the rules (systems) that define gameplay are largely derived from simulating interactions with the game world in a believable manner.
I think that's slightly wrong. As far as I can tell Looking Glass were actually using at least two different terms during the 90s, Immersive Reality and Role-Playing Simulation and a bunch of variations of both (including Dungeon Simulation, "Reality" Simulator, Immersive "Role-Playing" Reality, Computer Role-Playing Simulation and more) although interestingly never the specific phrase, "Immersive Simulation." Immersive Reality generally referred to their 'systems-driven emergent gameplay' design philosophy. Meanwhile they called their games Simulations because they were specifically referring to 3D simulation games that were coming out around the same time, like flight simulators, space sims, early 3D driving simulators and so on. Hence why they called Ultima Underworld a 'dungeon simulation' as in literally a dungeon crawler crossed with the 3D tech from flight simulators.

Mind you simulation has a ton of different meanings and I've found later quotes from the Thief team that contradict everything I just said, where they were using the term simulation to describe exactly what you described so I don't even fucking know anymore.

I'd argue that the technical implementation of ImSims doesn't necessarily matter,
Another good point. You don't need to have an Act/React system to be an immersive sim (fucking Ultima Underworld sure as shit doesn't use one but that game's the root of the entire genre/subgenre/design philosophy/who gives a fuck.) It's not a checklist of features. I'd argue Trespasser probably counts as one and that game took a radically different approach to designing its systems (where they shot for the moon and... just completely missed and fell flat on their face but fuck, it's fascinating trainwreck.)

The main reason why I tried to describe the Act/React system in detail is because most discussion of immersive sims on the net is just utter rubbish. Like, even when it's good (which it seldom is) it's almost always this wishy-washy theoretical discussion of game design and mechanics that never actually goes anywhere and then descends into some yelling match about how Skyrim or Half Life or The Sims or some fucking Japanese visual novel is actually an immersive sim based on... just utter nonsense or their own interpretations of the words immersive and sim. Meanwhile the Act/React system is a proper, concrete, quantifiable system which was designed to try to simulate real-world rules. It was specifically made to allow for emergent interactions and to allow for a degree of realistic player agency. And it's not even Thief's most famous system - it isn't part of the sound or AI systems (although it is tied into both) that get all the praise.

But yeah, with this line of thinking there is the risk of reducing Immersive Sims to just a checklist of systems and features, which is really missing the point. Still, it seems like a fairly common system in these games post-Thief.

I gotta question for you: Do you know if Dishonored uses a similar Stimulus/Response-style system to Thief/System Shock 2/Prey? I've tried looking up information on this but the best I could find was that list of Prey's Signals off your own twitter. Also, where did you manage to get that from? Cause I love sifting through this kinda shit. Bioshock as well if you know anything about how that one works.
 
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Dave the Druid

Educated
Joined
Dec 29, 2022
Messages
193
If Ultima Underworld is an imsim, how is Daggerfall not? Come on now
I posted this in another thread but here's Greg LoPiccolo on how their upcoming game, The Dark Project, is going to be a kind of simulator but not in that 'weak' Daggerfall kind of way:
QeTKbBE.png

Source. The very next paragraph they start talking about Act/React as well. Admittedly they're talking about Thief: The Dark Project there not Ultima Underworld but it probably still applies.
 

gaussgunner

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ХУДШИЕ США
I think I get it now.
CRPGs (like Wizardry and Ultima) were like D&D
Rogue was like a CRPG without a party or graphics (and autism to the max)
ARPGs (like Diablo) were like Roguelikes with graphics and realtime button mashing
ImSims were like ARPGs with FPS engines

I guess Daggerfall was an early 3D ARPG with lots of NPCs and stats, inspired by Diablo and Nethack. Instead of emulating those, Thief used new more interactive mechanics made possible by 3D. Later "ImSims" like Deus Ex and and Bloodlines were somewhere in between. Maybe that works better than pure single-character RPG or a pure simulation with dumb physics puzzles and shit.
 

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