Torment I just finished Planescape: Torment and...

[Prime Junta]

But one can simultaneously recognize it for a masterpiece of a cRPG and not put it in the ranks of "literature."

One can.

One would be sadly mistaken, however.

Tolkien or Vance or Le Guin or Howard or Lieber or Zelazny

One begins to see how that mistake could arise.

Spoiler

Of that above list, only Le Guin rises above the level of lowbrow genre fiction. So if these are your standards for literature, and you consider Vance a better writer than Avellone, sorry bro, but you wouldn't know literature if it bit you in the ass.

Spoiler

Vance fucking sucks. He writes like an average 13-year-old.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Very interesting analysis, MRY. I really enjoy reading it. But I disagree on something with you, the existence of literature, which until now is probably the one of the most fruitful art medium, shows that despite the time, reinventions of art and masterpieces appear constantly. Since always the special ingredient usually appears, that is the individual that wants to create.

But anyone who’s incredibly talented and incredibly motivated (admittedly a small group) can theoretically write a great novel. That’s just not the case in games, or movies or TV for that matter. Someone higher up the corporate food chain needs to spot that talent, trust the visionary in question, find someone to finance the damn thing, and then somehow prevent all of these investors and executives from exerting too much control over the finished product.

Fallout got the same benefit from benign neglect, but that’s an unusual management style.

Obviously, if cRPGs were to get a Tolkien or Vance or Le Guin or Howard or Lieber or Zelazny, who also had adequate technical know-how and patience to write branching dialogues and item descriptions and so forth, his or her game could vastly surpass PS:T. But now you've made the pool of available talent even smaller, since I think Chris would be the first to admit he isn't a Tolkien/Vance/Le Guin/Howard/Lieber/Zelazny-level writer, even if he is the finest cRPG writer of all time by a significant margin. So the odds of its happening seem even lower -- now we are positing that the stars align and our ~Avellone is actually a ~Avellone + 5.

More and more good authors are moonlighting in games. Seth Dickinson, who wrote the excellent Traitor Baru Cormorant, wrote a lot of the lore for Destiny 2. Not my cup of tea, but you can read his stuff for the game here and IMO it’s pretty good: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-marasenna

Mark Lawrence—Prince of Thorns, Red Sister etc...—wrote a bunch of stuff for a new soulslike. Ashen maybe?

Also, entirely unrelated to games, if you haven’t read Max Gladstone’s Craft Sequence yet, get thee to a library. Very heavy Lord of Light/Creatures of Light and Darkness influence. https://io9.gizmodo.com/three-parts-dead-mixes-magic-with-courtroom-drama-5960620

 

[MRY]

Prime Junta ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm a simple man, and I would include LeGuin in fantasy genre, not "literature." I would just put her, with those other authors, at the high end, rather than merely "good." This being a matter of gustibus, I will not dispute.

Kyl Von Kull The Craft books are okay, but Choice of the Deathless is 10/10.

 

[HoboForEternity]

PST is for the faggiest of story fags.

where is the :shit: rating when you need it

 

[SausageInYourFace]

But one can simultaneously recognize it for a masterpiece of a cRPG and not put it in the ranks of "literature."

One can.

One would be sadly mistaken, however.

Tolkien or Vance or Le Guin or Howard or Lieber or Zelazny

One begins to see how that mistake could arise.

In that kind of discussion I think you need to distinguish between fantasy and scifi a little more strictly because in general scifi seems to be taken a little more seriously than fantasy for whatever reason.

Talking about fantasy literature, in my experience, Tolkien and LeGuin are the only genre fiction authors you can actually seriously discuss in academia without professors looking at you funny. Tolkien is also one of the few genre fiction authors who by now has plenty of literature published about him and his work, LeGuin is afaik the only fantasy author published in the Library of America.

The list gets a little longer if you include scifi, but perhaps not much. William Gibson and Philip K. Dick are probably the ones most highly regarded, in my estimation.

I am not sure what you standards of 'literature' are since you are just making declarative statements a la 'I think X is much better than Y!' (which is fine in this kind of discussion, I don't expect an actual comparative analysis) but if you simply go by reputation as in 'taken seriously by the literary establishement' then Tolkien and LeGuin are up there, Dick and Gibson are up there, and the others you mentioned aren't. (And MCA isn't up there with them, nor should he be, sorry.)

 

[HoboForEternity]

also with numenera, i guess it is worth playing with a discount. it has some good moments, some bad moments. as a whole it isn't a cohesive experience from start to finish, even the peak of numenera doesn't reach the peak of planescape, but the good part like the few last locations are pretty good, and some individual great quests are scattered troughout the game.

 

[Fairfax]

from the various retrospectives, it almost sounds like Avellone's control over PS:T happened because of benign neglect/managerial distraction, not brilliant talent-spotting.

Yes, a series of fortuitous events led to MCA having such freedom and control:

• Chris had several months and complete freedom to work on the game's pre-production in 97.
• After the Troika guys left BIS, Feargus took over FO2, Interplay's main focus in 98. Being head of the division and FO2's co-director prevented him from interfering for most of PS:T's development.
• Interplay went public in 98, which kept Fargo and the rest of the company's upper management extremely busy.
• PS:T's development was mostly halted while FO2 was made, but Chris kept working on it while also working on FO2.
• Guido Henkel was incompetent and lazy, so he didn't influence the game that much even after it entered full production.
• Guido eventually got fired, which gave the team even more freedom.
• BG1 was a surprise hit, which drew even more of Interplay's attention towards TotSC, BG2, and NWN.
• There was another, more expensive Planescape game being made at the same time, which also occupied Interplay's upper management.
• Part of BIS started to work on IWD in late 1999.
• WotC didn't really care about what they were doing with the IP.

 

[Prime Junta]

I am not sure what you standards of 'literature' are since you are just making declarative statements a la 'I think X is much better than Y!' (which is fine in this kind of discussion, I don't expect an actual comparative analysis) but if you simply go by reputation as in 'taken seriously by the literary establishement' then Tolkien and LeGuin are up there, Dick and Gibson are up there, and the others you mentioned aren't. (And MCA isn't up there with them, nor should he be, sorry.)

I'm too old for tl;dr essays, so I'll just go with a quick, shitty subjective.

Good low-brow genre fiction is good, clean, entertaining fun. There's nothing much to it beyond excitement, adventure, maybe a bit of titillation. Classic fantasy example: Conan the Barbarian. (I fucking love Conan the Barbarian, I don't know how many times I've read my Omnibus.)

Good literature goes beyond its ostensible subject matter, and artfully evokes something that is universally human, in a way that has the capacity to awake new thoughts, move, or even change the reader as a human being. Classic example: Crime and Punishment.

So my opinion on whether a book falls under the low-brow genre fiction or actual literature side of the fence is contingent on my opinion on its capability to speak of something outside the bounds of its genre. This is necessarily fuzzy and subjective, since no work of fiction is /completely/ devoid of universal human concerns, otherwise nobody would bother reading it.

Off the top of my head, some sci-fi/fantasy works (books, films, games etc) that by this criterion, in my view fall squarely on the "literature" side of the fence:
- Wolfe, Gene: Book of the New Sun
- Le Guin, Ursula K: Earthsea trilogy
- Avellone, MC: Planescape: Torment
- Scott, Ridley: Blade Runner
- Sturgeon, Theodore: More than Human
- Duncan, Hal: Vellum
- Kubrick, S: A Clockwork Orange

Some sci-fi/fantasy works that straddle the fence:
- Tolkien, J.R.R.: Lord of the Rings, Silmarillion
- Scott Card, Orson: Ender's Game
- Heinlein, Robert: Citizen of the Galaxy
- Kubrick, S: 2001: A Space Odyssey

Some sci-fi/fantasy works that are good low-brow genre fiction:
- Howard, Robert E: Conan the Barbarian stories
- Leiber, Fritz: the Swords cycle
- Moorcock, Michael: the Eternal Champion cycle
- Lovecraft, H.P.: At the Mountains of Madness, The Colour Out Of Space and a bunch of others
- Reynolds, Alastair: pretty much everything
- Miéville, China: pretty much everything
- Banks, Iain M: pretty much everything
- Lucas, Robert: Star Wars (IV-VI)
- Erikson, Steven: The Malazan series
- Corey, James S.A.: The Expanse series
- Asimov, Isaac: Foundation, Foundation and Empire, Second Foundation

Some famous and highly-regarded sci-fi/fantasy authors that are garbage even work as escapist fiction, mostly going to show how low the standards of the genre are:
- Vance, Jack (everything, he just can't write for shit and his ideas are dumb as well)
- Asimov, Isaac (everything other than the original Foundation trilogy)
- Clarke, Arthur C (everything except 2001: A Space Odyssey where he had a good collaborator)
- Leckie, Ann (everything)
- (jesus this would be a long list, most sci-fi/fantasy is utter rubbish)

---> I think Raymond Chandler pointed out that the average detective story isn't actually any worse than the average novel, the difference being that the average novel never gets published. This is true for all genre fiction.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Prime Junta you don’t think China Mieville or Iain M. Banks “speak to something outside the bounds of the genre?” Really? Less so than Citizen of the Glaxy? That feels like quite the stretch.

I just read a cool interview with a pair of literary fiction authors (including a Booker prize winner) who’ve moved into straight fantasy—they have some interesting stuff to say about literature vs genre fiction. https://www.vulture.com/2019/02/marlon-james-and-victor-lavalle-have-a-conversation.html

MRY I didn’t even know Gladstone had a game, but that’s one more example of a better than average SFF writer moving into the industry. This seems to be happening more often, although it’s possible I’m just noticing it more. Cassandra Khaw (lukewarm on her cannibal novels, but I like her short fiction) is another one. NK Jemisin and Cathrynne Valente just wrote Mass Effect tie in novels—that’s a lot more prestige than I’m used to seeing behind these licensed books. Even if we never get another perfect storm like the one that created PS:T, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone figures out another way to make something as good or perhaps even better. Disco Elysium looks very, very promising.

 

[Fairfax]

It seems Cunta is back to his extreme charlatan self. I'm sure it's no coincidence that it happened right after buttons were removed.

 

[Prime Junta]

Prime Junta you don’t think China Mieville or Iain M. Banks “speak to something outside the bounds of the genre?” Really? Less so than Citizen of the Glaxy? That feels like quite the stretch.

No, I don't. I'll allow a downgrade of Citizen of the Galaxy however.

(I love you too Fairfax, and for the last time, your mom LIKED it.)

 

[Strange Fellow]

A Brief History of Seven Killings was p fun, will have to check out African Game of Thrones sometime.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Wagner Kane series were fun Conan like pastiche with bit darker and more mature themes added. Shame that Author offed xir self.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Each time I read a thread like this I get incredibly jealous, because I know I'll never feel this kind of bliss again upon playing one of the great classics that I've already played and finished.

you can always play Deus Ex. An immensely better experience. And unlike Torment, an actual video game.

nice try but desu ex is shit

also someone really needs to cut prime junta's internet access before the brain rot spreads

 

[Kev Inkline]

Each time I read a thread like this I get incredibly jealous, because I know I'll never feel this kind of bliss again upon playing one of the great classics that I've already played and finished.

Age, age might do that to you.

I played pst for the first time about 2000, made it all the way to the Fortress of Regrets, but my then computer was too slow to survive its first halls (or so I thought, could be just me sucking sucking, with retrospect). Nonetheless, I replayed the whole game last December, and I realised apart from companion stories in Sigil, I remembered almost nothing.

It was an absolutely joyful and rediscovery, redeeming almost.

 

[Jaedar]

I'm too old for tl;dr essays, so I'll just go with a quick, shitty subjective.

I have no buttons, but I most voice my displeasure.

Your list is shit.

nice try but desu ex is shit

This post might be worse than the list though.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Each time I read a thread like this I get incredibly jealous, because I know I'll never feel this kind of bliss again upon playing one of the great classics that I've already played and finished.

you can always play Deus Ex. An immensely better experience. And unlike Torment, an actual video game.

nice try but desu ex is shit

 

[TheImplodingVoice]

Guys... you were right. This game is a masterpiece. I even don't know what to say... after completing the game I felt as if I had been hit.

When I was reaching the end of the game, I feel all the greatness of the trip I had done so far, the weight of the actions I had taken and the importance of the characters that accompanied me in it. Yes, I know it sounds corny... but I think it's the best way to describe it that I have now.

It's as if each part of the game, each mission, no matter how small, would have contributed to achieving a world so alive, but at the same time so different. Even in spite of its deep decline, the trip leaves you marked and is ... sincerely moving.

The most curious thing about this, is that I had the game for quite some time. But only recently I have finished it. At first I felt extremely disoriented and I thought that the story was incomprehensible, but when I played it again, this time determined to follow it, I did not expect something of this magnitude. The ending was something both shocking and very emotional. And I know that most of you guys think the ending is perfect as it was, but I have to say that I felt that Nameless One deserved a softer ending, that is, when he finally leaves, and leaves the others behind, I feel he leaves me behind too. As the person who was following him in his adventure all this time. And that makes me feel a little sad, it seemed that something was missing.

After that experience I wanted to share this with someone else and also wanted to ask, do you think it's worthwhile to continue with Torment: Tildes of Numeria?

Glad you liked it. But you also screwed yourself with the fact that you will never ever play anything like PST again. While Tides of Numenera isn't completely void of redeemable qualities and InXiles attempt was admirable. InXile made nothing but a poor imitation. PST is something that sadly can never be replicated again. It's such and amazing game and I wish I could experience it for the first time again.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Numanuma was an abysmal, hatefully bad failure on EVERY level.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Good low-brow genre fiction is good, clean, entertaining fun. There's nothing much to it beyond excitement, adventure, maybe a bit of titillation. Classic fantasy example: Conan the Barbarian. (I fucking love Conan the Barbarian, I don't know how many times I've read my Omnibus.)

Good literature goes beyond its ostensible subject matter, and artfully evokes something that is universally human, in a way that has the capacity to awake new thoughts, move, or even change the reader as a human being. Classic example: Crime and Punishment.

Off the top of my head, some sci-fi/fantasy works (books, films, games etc) that by this criterion, in my view fall squarely on the "literature" side of the fence:
- Wolfe, Gene: Book of the New Sun

I don't agree with, or maybe just don't care for, the categorical distinction between low-brow and high-brow you've drawn. I recently read Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun and the first four books are great because they're an adventure through an incredibly inventive and varied world where the protagonist does all sorts of things - he has to be aggressive, violent, quick-witted, cunning, etc. There's all sorts of clever bluffs and negotiations Severian pulls on people to beat them. Later Wolfe wrote a fifth book in the series with the hitherto muted religious-metaphysical stuff dialled up to 11. It wasn't bad, but it was nowhere near as interesting nor in my opinion intelligent as the action-adventure shenanigans. Sure, the whole idea of the New Sun coming, and some opposing it while others support it is good, it's a great way to motivate characters, but I didn't care hugely for it in and of itself. I suppose part of the issue was that Severian had things handed to him - the status of Autarch, especially - because of prophecy and his eventual messiah status. That was far less interesting than the adventure parts where he has to work for things.

Even Conan the Barbarian has something that's universally human and can inspire people: he's perhaps the greatest case of the Chad meme. You can laugh, but the human condition isn't only about highfalutin emotional or moral thoughts. It's also about whether you are a Chad or not.

 

[Cael]

A person who thinks Asimov's Foundation is good but his other works, including Azazel, is shit has no right to be in a thread talking about good books/stories.

 

[Ladonna]

Just regarding PS:T, I remember not seeing or hearing a thing about the game until I got Tales of the Sword Coast and, while installing that (or when it first started after install), a video was force played and I just thought wtf? It was a very surreal video that stuck in my mind, and I mentally noted down this 'Torment' game as something to look out for. As soon as I saw the box in the games shop upon release, I picked it up. Rest is history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s2Qkx3lN5s

That is the video, but it wasn't on Fallout, as that was released prior (must have been on later releases).

 

[toro]

Thank you guys for the answers. Nice to see that others had a similar experience in terms of impact. It's not surprising, but it's good to see it. I also see that there are different opinions regarding Numenera, I know that the original writer of Planescape did not participate in it, so I understand some of the complaints. But I wanted to see if at least it had some of the "magic" that the original has. Of course it's difficult to reach the same level.

. Just keep this memory of finishing Torment the first time frozen in amber, in your mind, your memory.

Oh, I will, it was a unique moment. But thanks for remind me.

Numenera took me 21 hours to finish. Not only it didn't retain any of the PS:T "magic" but it doesn't have any magic at all. It's completely different as in bland and boring.

 

[Hamster]

After that experience I wanted to share this with someone else and also wanted to ask, do you think it's worthwhile to continue with Torment: Tildes of Numeria?

Nope.

I am pretty sure you cannot claim you played and finished Tildes of Numeria so that you can say it is not worth it

Spoiler

Nigga please, i played games like Pillars of Eternity and fucking Septerra Core to the end, Numanuma is child's play.

 

[a Goat]

Guys... you were right.

First sentence and you're already wrong.