Vapourware Greed Monger Insider Thread (drama inside)

[PoppinBy]

I can prove that he's a nice person.

That's bullshit.
Have you even ever met him face to face? I highly doubt it.
I'm sorry, but when it comes to proving something as intangible as a personality trait I'm not going to accept anything less than having spent at the absolute minimum several months of frequent physical interaction. Even then it is far too easy for a person to present a false impression of themselves, and this isn't something that people even necessarily do deliberately with intent, society works through people altering their behaviour when in different contexts to present a more desirable image of themselves and 'nice' is one of the most basic and prevalent traits to assume. Through the subtle variations in body language, attitudes, demeanour and so on someone can come to see through the shell a person builds around them and into more of their true nature.

Sometimes it's the little things, like the occasional snide comment that seemed too sincere that builds up an overall impression that no, this person isn't nice. Perhaps it's something larger and more obvious, maybe they laugh at a stranger's misfortune, or stand by with complete disinterest as a little old lady struggles with something.

These are all things that you will not and cannot notice through such imperfect communication mediums as voice or video chats. Maybe you actually spend a lot of time talking away with each other through such means but it nevertheless allows a person to always present themselves at their best. In a physical situation if something made someone uncomfortable their reaction would be laid bare before everyone else present, but over digital communication the person can just find some means to excuse themselves or otherwise obfuscate their feelings. Does technical difficulties with a microphone ring a bell?

And to cap it all off and expanding on what I touched upon with my previous response, when you play games with him you are both having fun. It is trivial for someone to come across as nice when they are enjoying themselves (provided what they are enjoying isn't reprehensible that is).

So no. You can't prove that he's a nice person. You can at best say that your imperfect impression of him is that he is at heart a nice person.

Can you prove that he's a swindler?

I presume you're familiar with the expression 'actions speak louder than words'?
Assuming you are, have you even actually READ this thread?
What part of 'signing shady deals for personal gain and making pretty declarations that are nothing more than vapour the moment the goods are in the bag' don't you understand?

I'd say that there is indeed an awful lot of evidence that his actions are those of a swindler. A brief recap:
- constantly lying
- manages to profit, and not through accident

If there was ever a court case to decide whether or not Proctor is a swindler the only chance he'd have of being found innocent would be through proving mental infirmity of sufficient calibre that it blinds him utterly to the barest reality of a situation because he's spent three goddamn years getting nowhere.

Would I consider him someone for whom swindling is a natural course of action? No, he's not like Appleton simply selling the next snake oil (although I still maintain that when it comes to Greed Monger Appleton was actually sincere about what he wanted for it). I don't think Proctor's the sort of person who would actively scheme from the start to scam (though whether that's because he's more scrupulous or just less confident is hard to say) but he certainly IS the sort of person who will take advantage of a situation when the opportunity arises.

Until then you're just another person rattling the cages for more drama.

Well duh? This shit's better that soap operas.
It doesn't make what I say any less valid though.

[I'm sorry for the excessive italicisation in this post, but that talk of proof just really ruffled my feathers.]

 

[Hobo Elf]

That's bullshit.
Have you even ever met him face to face? I highly doubt it.

I've had more contact with him than I have with you so that puts him slightly above you in the totem pole
For all I know the only one bullshitting here is you.

 

[Angthoron]

Thread keeps delivering.

 

[Scroo]

Lol sorry Hobo Elf but

 

[Angthoron]

Okay guys, on an off-chance that you aren't actually kidding in your ardent defenses. Here's the thing: you need to learn to separate the different faces each human being wears, different roles they take on.

You know. African warlords have their men kill hundreds of civilians. Then they come home and have lovely dinners with their family, maybe kick the ball with their son, are the best dad in the world. People murdering other people, for profit, fun or out of pathological needs - their friends will tell you they've been fantastic buddies since first grade. People will commit the worst atrocities with one hand and pet their pets with the other.

This is how people actually are. Proctor can be the loveliest man to his friends, but does it mean he wasn't aware of what he was doing? Does it absolve him of breaking even the basic "promise" of delivering those t-shirts? Does being a good man to a friend mean you're Space Jesus?

No. It fucking doesn't.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Ah, I see now. Guilty until proven otherwise. I'm not defending anyone, they can do that themselves if they wish to do so. I'm just extending my benefit of doubt, the same doubt I extend to all of you as well. It's not something you can use in court to prove someone isn't guilty, it's just simply my good word that I can offer.
You keep parroting the same stuff about peoples persona that they don in society, which is true, but it also applies to you as well. Maybe you're just out for blood, maybe you aren't. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong, I dunno. All I know for a fact based on my interactions is that James was a nice enough fellow and that's it. You guys keep saying that he acts nice as a cover and that may be or may not be, but until you can provide undisputed proof that he's a shyster, I'll treat you as an angry lynch mob out to find them a witch.

 

[Scroo]

No, he might very well be a nice person, really, but he still is a swindler. Lying about projects, hastily putting some assets together without a single line of self written code, publishing pictures of a new project that are just screenshots from the asset store, would you call this honest?!

He's a swindler by definiton, how can you not see that?! That, or he is highly delusional in which case he'd need help - no offense, I'm serious here.

 

[Angthoron]

Ah, I see now. Guilty until proven otherwise.

No, you clearly don't see.

If you did see, you'd remember his short-lived zombie survival project that was made from 100% premade level on Unity.

But it also applies to you as well. Maybe you're just out for blood, maybe you aren't. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong, I dunno.

Yes. It applies to everyone. In fact, I'll tell you this much - there are people and principles I would defend with my life, and there are people that I'd tear to pieces with bare hands if I could get close enough. This is both in one person and I don't feel conflicted in the least about it.

All I know for a fact based on my interactions is that James was a nice enough fellow and that's it.

Yes, but it says nothing about him being a fraud or not. Being nice to friends isn't a quality that can be taken into account when someone fails a business venture that had other people's money riding on it. It's just that - him being a nice guy. So what? Should I feel better if I lost my money to incompetence or to swindling of a nice guy, rather than a mean shitty asshole? It'd still be my money. Fuck, if Jesus came and swindled me out of my money, I'd probably still be like what the fuck man, come on, that was a dick move, while he'd go along resurrecting people and feeding the poor with multiplying fishes.

You guys keep saying that he acts nice as a cover and that may be or may not be, but until you can provide undisputed proof that he's a shyster, I'll treat you as an angry lynch mob out to find them a witch.

He claimed to have resources and knowledge to deliver a product. For 30K. He had neither. This is plain for anyone to see. For anyone that knows anything about game dev in general and MMO dev in particular, the promises given were an outright lie from the start. The assets shown off in the sales pitch were a lie. He cooperated with the project owner, who either ordered or offered him to lie. What else do you want? It's very simple.

And you know, if I did the same, I'd be happy to have people on my side, but in the end of the day, I'd have been the guy that ran away with the money. Let's say I was super nice, but then took the Codex fundraiser cash for projects I worked with, and run, be like welp it disappeared. But I'd still be nice about it, and nice to y'all. Would that make me a bad guy or not?

 

[Hobo Elf]

No, he might very well be a nice person, really, but he still is a swindler. Lying about projects, hastily putting some assets together without a single line of self written code, publishing pictures of a new project that are just screenshots from the asset store, would you call this honest?!

He's a swindler by definiton, how can you not see that?! That, or he is highly delusional in which case he'd need help - no offense, I'm serious here.

No, of course that's not honest, but did he do that? Or the team he was part of? Iirc James told me that he was not being paid anything while he was working on the game, all profits would've been gotten after the project was finished. If what he says is true then he was cheated just as much as everyone else. But that's about the extent of my knowledge on this matter. I met James before I knew his involvement in this project (or its existence for that matter) and had no idea what had gone down, and I still don't understand all of it.

You guys keep talking about it as if Greed Monger was his project. Was it? If that's the case then you are right, but from what I understood it wasn't and James was only a part of the team, working for free with the assumption that he'd get a % of the profit once the game shipped.

 

[Angthoron]

You guys keep talking about it as if Greed Monger was his project. Was it? If that's the case then you are right, but from what I understood it wasn't and was only a part of the team, working for free with the assumption that he'd get a % of the profit once the game shipped.

He was the project director. Appleton was the project owner. There was no team. They made it sound like there was. He did work for free, in a sense, but he had expenses covered, plus tech, assets, licenses etc. Other fiscal items I'm not certain about, he did get some money IIRC, according to even himself in this thread. It wasn't on a regular payroll though, because that'd fuck up his disability check.

After the shit burst wide open, he and his friend openly stated that he was the victim, then after a while took over the project and said they'd finish it, and send the physical stuff to the backers. Neither happened, out of the blue the project was announced dead a month later and Proctor toyed around with the idea of a survival open world zombie game for a bit, even releasing a gameplay video that someone quickly pointed out was a carbon copy of a Unity assets demo level.

So there you have it.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Well, that's that then.

 

[PoppinBy]

Did I ask if you had read this thread?

Assuming you are, have you even actually READ this thread?

Erm, yup, seems I did.

But that's about the extent of my knowledge on this matter.

So no, you haven't read this thread.

And therein lies the problem.

Guilty until proven otherwise

I'm a great believer in the converse. Don't pass judgement unless you are absolutely sure and all that.

BUT THIS THREAD IS AN ENDLESS SLEW OF EVIDENCE THAT WEIGHS AGAINST PROCTOR.
And the various threads on other sites that are linked here.
And that 3 hour long video of Lumpy and Proctor that you can find a link to from here.


What you are doing is the equivalent of storming into a court case and bellowing "I object!" whilst everyone is tidying their mountain of paperwork into neater piles having finished the proceedings. There is a stunned silence whilst everyone turns to look at you and in that time you continue on, crying out "I have held conversations with this man on several occasions in the past and I can testify that he is of upstanding character!".

Somewhere at the back of the jury there is a muffled giggle whilst the judge picks up his glasses and peers down at you through them before uttering, "I'm sorry?".

Not to be deterred you resolutely puff up your chest and reply, "I stand by my words!".

At this stage the usher regains her composure and steps towards and begins to ask you to leave but the judge quietens her with a wave of his hand before responding to your proclamation with, "Are you aware that there is irrefutable evidence that incriminates the defendant? What exactly is it that you can bring this matter into a new light with?"

"Why but of course, as I stated before I have held multiple phone calls with this man and can safely say that he is a nice person!"

The judge frowns slightly more, another couple furrows creasing his brow. "Do you even know what the defendant is being accused of?"

"He told me it was something to do with volunteer work..?" you reply uneasily.

"Yes, well, only in the sense that it was off the books so that he could continue to fraudulently claim disability benefits. Through this incident the defendant has accrued assets valuing approximately a fifth of the money that has gone missing."

"Yeah, well, I'm sure it was an accident. And besides, it was the mismanagement of the project that caused this, James was just one of the guys helping on it!"

"Mr. Proctor was both the lead developer and also the sole person not doing small contractual work on it. Whilst it was an erroneous decision of the project owner, Mr. Appleton, to place the defendant in this position it nevertheless remains true that the project continued under his leadership for approximately three years during which negligible progress was made."

"Yeah, well-"

"And furthermore the public collapse of the project led to a series of event that culminated in the defendant taking legal ownership of the project including any licenses and assets that it consisted of."

"Sure, but he said that-"

"It was at this stage that the defendant then declared that he would right any wrongs, starting with a humble token gesture, and that he would do everything in his power to rectify the situation."

"Right, but-"

"Approximately one month of silence later the defendant then announced that they were now working on an entirely new and unrelated project. The aforementioned token gesture was never made."

"Look, I don't care about any of that, James is a nice guy!"

"And a liar and a cheat who has been found grossly guilty of the charges that were, ironically, levied against him part way through the original trial in which he was happily testifying on the prosecution against the project leader, Appleton. The proceedings of both these excessively long trials are publicly available and you are encouraged to read them at your leisure, and now I must insist you cease your actions because it's been a long day and everyone wants to go home." finishes the judge, and with a terse nod to the usher he turns and begins gathering up his belongings.

[Any resemblance any characters other than the one from whose perspective this was to any users in this thread is unintentional and coincidental]

 

[gestalt11]

I'm simply giving him the benefit of doubt. I can prove that he's a nice person. Can you prove that he's a swindler? If you can, I'll believe ya. Until then you're just another person rattling the cages for more drama.

People always forget, negligence is also considered part of criminality. You can simultaneously be "nice" and negligent. These sorts of things are always discussed in a false dichotomy that conveniently ignores this.

This applies to both Jason and James. People like to gloss over Jason's negligence in regards to properly and soberly managing the project which he did about as incompetent of a job as possible and then make an excuse that at least he "tried" or that he didn't do the "bad stuff". Bullshit he setup the entire situation for failure. People like to make excuses and say James is a "nice guy". So fucking what? He dicked around and couldn't deliver and probably still thinks it could have worked. If that is patently unture, is he really "nice"? Is he trustworthy? I don't know but at some you have to say this is such a clusterfuck that continuing on in that vein is negligent even if he fully believes it can/should work. Maybe he is delusional, maybe he is lying to himself like many many people do, whatever. Motivations/intentions are only part of the equation. If you have great intentions AND make promises on those intentions to people THEN fail to deliver over and over; what are you? You are nothing but a slimy politicians who may or may not be insane.

There are a number of people convicted of various crimes they are truly mortified for having done because they are "nice" people. But they get convicted because some aspect of their actions was so egregiously irresponsible that it simply crosses a line. A lot of these are things that would normally be considered an "accident" like a crash that killed someone, but if you crashed into someone because you were doing something considered extremely reckless you can be convicted of manslaughter due to being so negligent.

 

[EJoe]

Well, that's that then.

Some addendum to this thread.


I was never involved, (see page 9 of this thread) in Greed Monger.


I took over several projects that were handled by some of the people on the Greed Monger team. When I get a project done by someone who was on the Greed Monger Team, it's usually a big mess. It's usually store-brought models, concept art in worse possible quality, mostly spaghetti code and months late. I'm happy for customers I've been doing concept art and code for them, for years on end.


For James, Joel the Lumpy guy and other guys whose names were mentioned on the GM project, I just leave them alone. Don't care, it's time to move on, and what's past is past, and I'll forget them eventually. Whatever it is, let bygones be bygones.

 

[EJoe]

he'd need help - no offense, I'm serious here.

He probably needs help in the other way -- competent people to take over his projects, remove customers from him, and re-do customer's project correctly.

 

[SerratedBiz]

[Any resemblance any characters other than the one from whose perspective this was to any users in this thread is unintentional and coincidental]

It's been a while since I've seen someone get blown the fuck out so hard. Props to you, and to HoboElf for being the unwitting victim.

 

[Azrile]

Ughh.. my brain hurts reading this thread again..

´he is a nice guy´??

you mean he doesn´t swear while playing video games and doesn´t rez-kill you? This dude is living in his mom´s basement and collecting disability checks while doing nothing AS AN ADULT and apparently smokes a lot of weed..... yeah.. wow.. he is a great guy because he is so chill while spending all day playing video games.

They have deleted them ( of course ) but do people not remember all the lies they told when they took over the project. I posted here and MMO-champs about exactly what they were doing. When James quit GM, he never expected Jason to demand back all the licenses and software. The only reason he and Lumpyman took over the project is so they wouldn´t have to give the software back to Jason. Joel and Proctor promised the world ´all our effort..´ to launch GM... what did proctor do after getting all the licenses from Jason? Nothing except downloaded a new asset from Unity and did a video of a zombie game. Joel of the ´ I can probably self-fund GM at this point´ talked so much about those t-shirts.. because he was sure they didn´t exist... then when Jason actually sent them to him and called his bluff, Joel the ´self-funder´ did not even have enough money to mail out t-shirts.

James lied for years about the progress the game was making.. there was none. He lied about the size of the team.. there was none The video he finally showed in January was something you could download and show in a few days. He then showed his only ´game´ which was a broken space invader game... which would be a one-day project for most developers.

But yeah, he is innocent because while playing video games from his mom´s basement he talks nice to you over skype.

 

[GM_JamesPro]

I'm sorry I tried really hard to stay out of this debate and let everything die down but there comes a point I just HAVE to respond and this last post crossed the line...

First of all Azrile I'd really like to know what messed up source you get your information from or maybe your mind is just so twisted against me that it makes stuff up and passes it off as fact...

I smoke alot of weed? That is news to me. I have never even touched the stuff. I haven't even smoked, drank alcohol, or done any sort of Recreational drug. I prefer to stay in control of my actions thank you very much. And yes so what... I'm a disabled white guy living with his mom who is also disabled... Sure beats being a White disabled guy living on the streets because my disability income doesn't support my expenses. So what's your point? That because I'm a white disabled guy living with his mom makes me not a good person? At least I know my disabilities and am attempting to make a life for my self doing something I have a passion for which is alot more then some people collecting government aid. I'm also a Bible believing, gun loving, Constitution supporting, Conservative... Are you going to start calling me a Racist terrorist now as well? lol

For the record we didn't delete anything. We aren't the ones who actually shut down GM's website. Yes I closed the forum but it was still there until Jason closed the site down. I had no issues giving everything back to Jason... I was prepared to give up all of the assets and the code for the last working version of GM that we had on our servers. However I wasn't about to give Jason my MMO Framework and my Streaming Plugin that I had custom coded. I had discussed it all with Interdiction studios and I was going to hand it all over to them as soon as I got home and had access to my internet. I don't drive and I was stuck up north with crappy internet... My mom had been admitted into the Hospital and so was unable to drive to pick me up when she was supposed to. Interdiction Studios knew all of this and were fine with waiting. That night however they dropped GM. Jason and I got to talking after they dropped it and Jason offered it to us. We jumped at the chance however we wanted time to go over the paperwork with a lawyer and make sure the transfer was done right but Jason wanted to rush it through and wouldn't give us the time we requested.

We had no team? Ok once again that's news to me... At the start we had 3 or 4 World Builders, 3 Programmers, Some 3d Modelers, Some texture artists... You don't call that a team? We then got our Original World done and let the world builders go. We still had them as contacts that we could call on in the future if we needed to but we didn't have the money to keep them on if they were not actively doing something. The 3d Modelers did what we needed them to do for our pre-Alpha and then we let them go until we launched our Alpha. The texture artists created our UI textures, Icons, ect. and then we let them go. 1 of our Programmers we had hired to create and code our housing system. He created our initial housing assets and then we let him go until we needed more housing assets done. Our other Programmer there at the start created our initial Inventory system and then decided it was time for him to move on. We also had a couple volunteer Community Managers through out the time and our QA Team was made up completely of Volunteers and stuck with us through to the end. Even now they are still with us. Through out the 3 years we also hired other Programmers from time to time to work on specific projects. However yes at the end I was the only full time active developer working on GM but we still had our team of QA testers working with me.

As for starting the Zombie Survival game after we took over GM... Before we took over GM we had been approached by the developer of one of the assets we were using (not going to say which one or who). They offered to fully fund the development of GM through to launch and help us in any way we needed help in. They wanted to use GM as a showcase for their product and were willing to do what was needed to see us launch. Several times through out the process of signing the paperwork and finalizing everything with Jason I checked back with this person to make sure the offer still stood. I was reassured that it very much still stood but we needed to be the sole owners of GM before we could take it any further. The papers were signed and we became the owners of GM. We attempted to enter into talks with this person and were told the offer was no longer on the table. That left us with no funding at all since Jason didn't give us any of the KickStarter money. It left us to scramble to come up with an alternative funding stream so we could build our team and get GM finished. We started discussing developing a smaller game that we could get developed in a short amount of time and use the revenue generated to help fund GM. I then started messing around with some different ideas and looking to see what was available on the asset store. The Survival Template stood out and with zombies being so popular I figured it was something we could develop and get some revenue from. So I got the pack and started doing some coding on it. I integrated my Multiplayer/MMO Framework, added a Lobby, created a Standalone Server, Integrated UniStorm, and we had ran a couple internal tests. I was messing around in game and took some pretty cool screenshots that I decided to upload to my facebook page to show my friends what I was working on. I had some people as friends that I shouldn't have had and they leaked the photos. At that point it was still just an idea we were messing around with it wasn't even close to being ready for us to announce it publicly.

Ok well I have taking some time to address some things here and that's all I have time for right now. I have tons of Skype discussions to back up most of what I'm saying here that I will release if I really have to... But whatever. What's done is done. We attempted to make the most out of a bad situation and we fell short. Future projects will be managed much differently... For starters you guys won't even know about them until we have something worth showing off...

 

[Immortal]

Check out his website btw, it's lovely.
http://www.jasonappleton.com/

 

[Jigawatt]

For starters you guys won't even know about them until we have something worth showing off...

And that's the last we ever heard of James

 

[DarKPenguiN]

Ughh.. my brain hurts reading this thread again..

´he is a nice guy´??

you mean he doesn´t swear while playing video games and doesn´t rez-kill you? This dude is living in his mom´s basement and collecting disability checks while doing nothing AS AN ADULT and apparently smokes a lot of weed..... yeah.. wow.. he is a great guy because he is so chill while spending all day playing video games.

They have deleted them ( of course ) but do people not remember all the lies they told when they took over the project. I posted here and MMO-champs about exactly what they were doing. When James quit GM, he never expected Jason to demand back all the licenses and software. The only reason he and Lumpyman took over the project is so they wouldn´t have to give the software back to Jason. Joel and Proctor promised the world ´all our effort..´ to launch GM... what did proctor do after getting all the licenses from Jason? Nothing except downloaded a new asset from Unity and did a video of a zombie game. Joel of the ´ I can probably self-fund GM at this point´ talked so much about those t-shirts.. because he was sure they didn´t exist... then when Jason actually sent them to him and called his bluff, Joel the ´self-funder´ did not even have enough money to mail out t-shirts.

James lied for years about the progress the game was making.. there was none. He lied about the size of the team.. there was none The video he finally showed in January was something you could download and show in a few days. He then showed his only ´game´ which was a broken space invader game... which would be a one-day project for most developers.

But yeah, he is innocent because while playing video games from his mom´s basement he talks nice to you over skype.

Ummmmm.... *raises hand* You are getting james and I mixed up.

I'm the one who smokes cannabis- copious amounts of some of the finest cannabis in the World, I might add. Legally, as well. I also make a fantastic income providing cannabis to those with medical cards (i.e. i'm a licensed grower and provider). Police just did a random inspected my building 2 days ago and im on the up and up so legally,morally and ethically I am in the same category as someone who makes and drinks fine wine. Dont like it? Tough. I'm also involved heavily with the campaign to bring full legalization to the herb.

If james was in my State on disability and had a medical card - i would provide the cannabis to him for nearly free as I am a caregiver to several disabled people on fixed incomes and thats the way we do things here. See iuf big Pharma has the same compassion for the poor.

I'm not on disability either- And the fact I smoke cannabis in no way makes me a "bad person"- Although other things I do might, =P

James is straight edge. Doesnt do anything- Also ,isnt judgmental towards those who do.

-I also need to say (since james pretty much already said it) that when all this shit was going down there was a game designer who said they would provide funding IF jason wasnt involved at all. I've seen the Skype chats along with a whole plethora of other information that isnt public about all of this mess. I always thought that taking GM was a bad idea but in James defense he believed there was funding from this source (based on conversations I personally saw) and if that fell through Joel would "fund it himself" . James is taking all kinds of shit for believing two people who didnt come through.

Again- I will stress- I thought it was a bad idea regardless. And counting on cash that isnt in hand isnt wise- BUT, thats what happened here (along with other shit)

I make no excuses for anyone- But again, I will reiterate- james is a nice guy who had no intention of ripping anyone off and is a dreamer who saw an opportunity to make his dream a reality.

I understand the position people are taking in blaming James for being shady- But you're wrong. James is alot of things , but his intentions here were good although poorly planned and based on the belief he had funding from either the un-named source or joel. In Joels case he claims to have been a victim of identity fraud and that explains his financial status in not being able to fund the game- take that for whatever its worth.

 

[EJoe]

Penguin and James - can I request all the chats be released?

Release it and let the matter close. Then others can see what's happening.
Release all the chats.

You can then move on in your life...

For that vendor, if it's not worth your time, it's time to throw him under the bus and move on.

Seriously... think about it...

My gut feeling is that, whoever this vendor is, is one of Appleton's minions, and if you expose him/and or his chats messages, other people can check him and find his association with Appleton...

BTW, I harbour no ill feeling against you.

Only thing I can state is, I'm happy for you, whatever it is. Try to improve your coding quality.

and... I don't deal with some of the modellers and concept artists on Greed Monger, as they are without a portfolio, you know what I mean?

 

[GM_JamesPro]

I could release them... However the Majority of the details discussed with this 3rd party were done so over Skype Video Conference so there are no actual Chat Logs. There are chat logs of me asking if the offer still stood however and a couple other mentions of the offer but the actual discussion we had detailing what the offer entitled were done over voice.

I can also say with pretty good certainty that Jason had nothing to do with this 3rd party. Jason hardly had anything to do with him after he pitched us his product. And my dealings with him goes back to the days we were both using the same engine long before I even knew Jason. My take on it is that We were both making similar games and he wanted to try and take his competition out of the equation... I could be wrong but that's effective what ended up happening by him not coming through.

[3/24/2015 10:18:22 AM] *** Call from Jacques Rossouw ***
[3/24/2015 10:19:16 AM] James Proctor: Hold on give me some time... I have my Mic headset somewhere I just need to find it
[3/24/2015 10:19:37 AM] James Proctor: Who Jason?
[3/24/2015 10:19:50 AM] James Proctor: He's still with us just been busy
[3/24/2015 10:20:14 AM] James Proctor: I'm going to end the call until I can find my mic.
[3/24/2015 10:20:30 AM] *** Call ended, duration 02:08 ***
[3/24/2015 10:20:38 AM] Jacques Rossouw: k
[3/24/2015 10:24:39 AM] James Proctor: ok call me again
[3/24/2015 10:24:46 AM] *** Call from Jacques Rossouw ***
[3/24/2015 11:17:57 AM] James Proctor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDOxcqd9rbk
[3/24/2015 11:20:35 AM] *** Call ended, duration 55:48 ***

So not much there but it during that conference call that we discussed the deal... This was before I left GM... I shelved the idea since at the time there was no way I was getting GM from Jason. Then Dark posted this post and everything blew up... April 3rd I left GM and I told Jacques that I had left:

[4/3/2015 3:29:48 AM] James Proctor: GM is done.
[4/3/2015 4:05:32 AM] Jacques Rossouw: as in ready to get released?
[4/3/2015 4:05:56 AM] James Proctor: No as in it's time for Jason to face the music and I've left...
[4/3/2015 4:06:31 AM] Jacques Rossouw: Yeah well tahst good on you as you where basicly keeping it all togetehr
[4/3/2015 4:49:47 AM] James Proctor: Yeah...
[4/3/2015 4:54:40 AM] James Proctor: Got a question... You had talked about doing a Business deal to help get GM done. You wanted Jason gone though... Jason owns the GM IP though so unless he willingly gave it up there would have been no way to get the IP from him. However now that I am gone my Business Partner and I are free to start our own company up again and we are going to be working on our own IP very similar to GM. Jason actually used our Design Document for the Design Document for GM so the 2 games are pretty much identical. I was just wondering if you would still be interested in doing something together just using our own IP instead of GM.
[4/3/2015 4:55:51 AM] James Proctor: We are also planning on Compensating the GM Backers in our own game.

There I ask him if he would be interested in doing the business deal but with our own IP instead of GM which was still out of reach for us at the time...

I then left GM and Jason and I got into a HUGE fight... Jason kept insisting I was working on some secrete project the whole time which wasn't true... Yes toward the end I was getting fed up with how things were going and so in my free time I was starting to lay the ground work for RoH so I could leave GM and get right back to work on RoH as soon as I left. I wanted something to fall back on if GM failed. But really who can blame me... Things were going no where with GM at the end there... I was working by my self trying to make it work but the PR was shot and nothing was being done to try and fix it. I was also being told by everyone around me that I should cut ties with Jason and do my own thing. So during that fight Jason first offered us GM if we gave him money... I told Joel about the offer and we started discussing it with the team trying to see if there was any way we could work out some deal with Jason to get it...

Jason Appleton

If you want you can keep it all, and just pay me back for all of the server bills you've ran working on what has apparently been your secret project as well as all of the license fees and asset costs

When I told Joel about this Joel, Dark, and My self went into a voice conference and started discussing it. The Pros, the cons, ect. I told them about the offer that Jacques had made if we could get ownership and so we really wanted to make a go of it. Joel, Jacques, and my self then had a discussion:

[4/4/2015 1:47:49 AM] James Proctor: Jacques are you available to talk with us?
[4/4/2015 1:48:35 AM] Jacques Rossouw: sure
[4/4/2015 1:48:59 AM] James Proctor: ok I guess my Business Partner is having to leave...
[4/4/2015 1:49:43 AM] Jacques Rossouw: k we can chat another time as I have a few thinsg im working on at the moment so works betetr for me
[4/4/2015 1:50:15 AM] James Proctor: BUT does your offer still stand? If we can get a hold of GM's IP are you still interested in helping with it?
[4/4/2015 1:50:29 AM] Jacques Rossouw: yip
[4/4/2015 1:51:13 AM] James Proctor: Ok then when Joel is available I'll get the 3 of us to discuss things.
[4/4/2015 1:51:22 AM] Jacques Rossouw: k
[4/4/2015 1:52:40 AM] James Proctor: Would we be able to rebrand GM since the GM name is so connected to Jason and the scam he pulled off...
[4/4/2015 1:54:05 AM] Jacques Rossouw: dont know, will ahve to chata nd see what can be done.
[4/4/2015 1:54:13 AM] James Proctor: ok
[4/4/2015 1:54:51 AM] James Proctor: Joel would like you to add him on skype... jrhager84
[4/4/2015 1:55:52 AM] Jacques Rossouw: done
[4/4/2015 1:55:59 AM] James Proctor: ok cool

Here I asked if the offer still stood and Jacques said that it did... I then asked if we would be able to rebrand GM if we took the offer... Part of the offer would have been that his company would have taking partial ownership of GM so they would have had a say in what happened to GM which is why I asked about the rebranding.

We then take over GM, tell Jacques, and come to find out the Offer no longer stands...


[4/5/2015 10:45:51 PM] James Proctor: Joel and I now own Greed Monger...
[4/6/2015 10:22:21 PM] James Proctor: Are you around?
[4/6/2015 10:26:20 PM] Jacques Rossouw: hey
[4/6/2015 10:26:24 PM] James Proctor: Hello
[4/6/2015 10:26:46 PM] James Proctor: So now that we own GM... Are you still interested in moving things forward?
[4/6/2015 10:28:07 PM] Jacques Rossouw: I just started a massive project yesterday, so might not be able to spend any time to do something with GM. But you guys have the license now for Atavism from Jason right so am good to make it?

 

[PoppinBy]

[4/3/2015 4:06:31 AM] Jacques Rossouw: Yeah well tahst good on you as you where basicly keeping it all togetehr

>actually considering to conduct business deals with someone who's spelling is consistently that bad.
Not that anything surprises me by this point.

jrhager84

Might wanna not leak personal info, though I'm not sure anyone can really be bothered to chase after Lumpy.

I wanted something to fall back on if GM failed. But really who can blame me... Things were going no where with GM at the end there...

Damn, this is just... Here, maybe a picture will help express my feelings better:

I'm pretty sure that when you're the sole person working on a game you don't really get to say "oh it's going nowhere, better cover my bases by working on something else". That's, again, dishonest to everyone else who has a stake in the matter. It's the point where you talk to the project leader with your concerns and if you feel they can't be resolved tell them you quit.
Oh, but I almost forgot, quitting would prohibit you from using the resources under Appleton's name.

[4/6/2015 10:28:07 PM] Jacques Rossouw: I just started a massive project yesterday, so might not be able to spend any time to do something with GM. But you guys have the license now for Atavism from Jason right so am good to make it?

So is this Jacques fellow someone who works for / owns Atavism?
How far-fetched would it be to suggest that Jacques simply wanted to see the license for his product transferred to some schmuck who would never seek a refund for it? (Can you even get refunds for licenses for that kind of software?)
Am I reading too much into this here?

I guess I'm just that reluctant to consider the alternative, that someone was actually seriously planning to make that offer considering the state the game is in. Although, thinking about it, it's more likely the guy was under the impression that the game had made far more progress than it had back when he made that offer and then during the fallout from Proctor leaving GM - the precursor to Proctor being able to accept the offer now that Appleton was no longer involved - he saw it for what it was and quickly made a u-turn.

Still, another guy involved in this mess whose first name begins with the letter 'J'. This is some conspiracy tier shit right here.
Anyway, tempting as it is to address the latest slew of posts in greater detail I think I'll just be repeating what I've said with plenty enough words already.

 

[GM_JamesPro]

I'm sorry but yes I do get to say that the game is going no where considering I was under no Contract to do anything and I wasn't being paid a dime at that point. And like I said it was being done in my spare time when I wasn't working on GM so it was having NO impact on GM's development. But anyways that's all in the past... Personally I'd rather look to the future and leave the past in the past... What happened happened and nothing can be done to change that.