Grand MS-DOS gaming General MIDI showdown

[schru]

Bester, it is important to note that MIDI music was primarily composed on one specific module or card, so it will sound best on it, provided it can be identified. Even though SC-55 had been out for around two years when Dark Sun came out, it is possible that its composer still worked on an MT-32 or a CM module. In this particular case, the game uses sound effects found only on one of the CM synthesizers, so that might be the best choice for it: https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/List_of_MT-32-compatible_computer_games

As for the SC-55 samples in the video above, they sound quite wrong, even for a game that only has nominal Sound Canvas support. It's possible that it was recorded using Sound Canvas VA with one of the SC-88 instrument maps.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

It's possible that it was recorded using Sound Canvas VA with one of the SC-88 instrument maps.

I recorded it. It's the SC-55 mode in Sound Canvas VA.

 

[Rincewind]

I think you're a bit confused... Roland MT-32 / CM-32L is NOT General MIDI! The article is about General MIDI, not the MT-32 family of devices... The MT-32 family *predates* the General MIDI standard. To put it simply, generally old games only work on MT-32, then newer games were usually composed for General MIDI, but sometimes also support MT-32. In some cases, they support both, and the MT-32 version is superior — just like here.

Games originally composed for Roland MT-32 should be played on the MT-32/CM-32L, by all means.
Games originally composed for SC-55/General MIDI should be played on SC-55/General MIDI.

This list should help:
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/List_of_MT-32-compatible_computer_games

 

[schru]

Also, check out the CRT shader.

One more thing, now that I look at the shader and know which platform the game is for, is the shader set up correctly? It seems like the horizontal lines are too thick. The hardware which nineties DOS games ran on used double scanning for 320x200, so that the vertical number of pixels was doubled to 320x400. DOSBox has a setting for it, doublescan=true ; it typically needs to be added manually as it is omitted in GOG releases. Technically, it belongs in the [renderer] section, but it probably doesn't matter where the line is added.

It seems that the best scaler method to use (also in the [renderer] section) with C.R.T. shaders are the hardware_ ones. hardware_none works well if you just want to fill the whole screen vertically, but the scan lines will be scaled unevenly if the full-screen resolution is not an integer multiple of the original resolution.

 

[Rincewind]

Also, check out the CRT shader.

One more thing, now that I look at the shader and know which platform the game is for, is the shader set up correctly? It seems like the horizontal lines are too thick. The hardware which nineties DOS games ran on used double scanning for 320x200, so that the vertical number of pixels was doubled to 320x400. DOSBox has a setting for it, doublescan=true ; it typically needs to be added manually as it is omitted in GOG releases. Technically, it belongs in the [renderer] section, but it probably doesn't matter where the line is added.

It seems that the best scaler method to use (also in the [renderer] section) with C.R.T. shaders are the hardware_ ones. hardware_none works well if you just want to fill the whole screen vertically, but the scan lines will be scaled unevenly if the full-screen resolution is not an integer multiple of the original resolution.

Yes, VGA cards can only do 350, 400 and 480 line modes, basically*. 320x200 is emulated; it's line *and* pixel-doubled to 640x400. If you scale a 320x200 image up and display it in the 640x400 mode, there is *zero* difference from the monitors point of view — the signals are 100% the same.

Single-scan shaders on VGA games are inauthentic, that's right. It might be a cool effect though, but that's an entirely different discussion...

The next major version of DOSBox Staging will default to correct double-scanning in all VGA modes out of the box, putting all this fiasco behind us... No need to fuck around with the config, VGA will be VGA, period. I'm testing it as we speak Plus my *treatise* on period-correct DOS shaders is in the works, stay tuned (released at the same time as the next DOSBox Staging version).

* There are some custom tweaked modes too that some games and demos use, but those are just variations of these.

 

[Rincewind]

Just some teasers... Period-accurate, authentic VGA shaders in action (at 4K res; open in new tab, zoom in to view at 100% magnification):

Spoiler

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Games originally composed for Roland MT-32 should be played on the MT-32/CM-32L, by all means.
Games originally composed for SC-55/General MIDI should be played on SC-55/General MIDI.

Ah, I didn't know. So I assume the cut-off date is around 91-93 for most games then? If <1991, then automatically MT-32/CM, if older then research.

One more thing, now that I look at the shader and know which platform the game is for, is the shader set up correctly?

I can't set it up correctly, because I don't have a 4k monitor. So I make do with what I have, I just picked one that looked okay, I didn't do any research. It's CRT-Hyllian.
Waiting for Rincewind's article. Hoping there'll be some info on what's the best thing for a 1080 panel, not just 4k.

 

[Rincewind]

Games originally composed for Roland MT-32 should be played on the MT-32/CM-32L, by all means.
Games originally composed for SC-55/General MIDI should be played on SC-55/General MIDI.

Ah, I didn't know. So I assume the cut-off date is around 91-93 for most games then? If <1991, then automatically MT-32/CM, if older then research.

Correct.

But beware of this! Quite confusingly, there’s an alarmingly large list of games that falsely claim MT-32 compatibility in their setup utility, but they in fact require a General MIDI module to sound correct. Before you configure any game for MT-32 sound, you should definitely check the list of games that falsely claim MT-32 compatibility too, no matter what the game’s manual says (quite often, the information contained therein is simply wrong).

I can't set it up correctly, because I don't have a 4k monitor. So I make do with what I have, I just picked one that looked okay, I didn't do any research. It's CRT-Hyllian.
Waiting for Rincewind's article. Hoping there'll be some info on what's the best thing for a 1080 panel, not just 4k.

Hyllian is one of my favourites, very nice shader and performant too.

On 1080p, you actually can't emulate double-scanned VGA properly; there's not enough vertical resolution. You need 1440p minimum. The best you can do is to just use the default "sharp bilinear" shader of DOSBox Staging and that's it. You can't get much more accurate without tricks on 1080p (more about that in my article). Pixels on VGA are supposed to be blocky because they're really 2x2 pixel rectangles in 640x400 res, as I explained. VGA is "hardware 2x integer upscaling" 320x200, effectively.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

Seems like a good place to ask: let's say I want to make music that sound like early 90s DOS BOX games or something like that, how do I start? Are there soundfonts that emulate the old cards and you can just plug your MIDI in it and it works? I know some cards where more popular than others, like the Soundblaster, but I'm unsure how to proceed. I've played music for a long time, both analog and digital (mostly using DAW) but I'm by no mean a professional and I have limited knowledge related to the arcanes of this thread other than I really like old music and I'd like to try my hand at it. Thanks.

 

[Rincewind]

Seems like a good place to ask: let's say I want to make music that sound like early 90s DOS BOX games or something like that, how do I start? Are there soundfonts that emulate the old cards and you can just plug your MIDI in it and it works? I know some cards where more popular than others, like the Soundblaster, but I'm unsure how to proceed. I've played music for a long time, both analog and digital (mostly using DAW) but I'm by no mean a professional and I have limited knowledge related to the arcanes of this thread other than I really like old music and I'd like to try my hand at it. Thanks.

I recommend the Yamaha S-YXG50, that's your best pick and it's completely free. That's an authentic recreation of the Yamaha MU80 from 1994, effectively. It sounds 95% identical.
https://veg.by/en/projects/syxg50/

If you want SoundFonts, I recommend Creative 4GMGSMT (that's 100% authentic, done by Creative themselves), GeneralUser GS, or Fluid R3.
The smaller the better, actually, for that "90s" feel! The total sample sets on these 90s MIDI boards were somewhere between 2 and 4 MB (yes!).

Check out these SoundFont comparison recordings:
https://github.com/dosbox-staging/dosbox-staging/wiki/MIDI#comparison-recordings

Links to them here:
https://github.com/dosbox-staging/dosbox-staging/wiki/MIDI#soundfonts

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

Thanks a lot, super appreciated. It's for a future game we are developing, so thanks a lot!

 

[Rincewind]

Thanks a lot, super appreciated. It's for a future game we are developing, so thanks a lot!

For extra "authenticity" you might wanna keep the compositions to 8 tracks max (that's a common limit used in General MIDI / MT-32 soundtracks), and only use the built-in reverb & chorus of the Y-SXG50. No extra effects, post-processing, no nothing. Check the recordings from my linked article in the OP; these old DOS soundtracks still sound glorious.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

Thanks a lot, super appreciated. It's for a future game we are developing, so thanks a lot!

For extra "authenticity" you might wanna keep the compositions to 8 tracks max (that's a common limit used in General MIDI / MT-32 soundtracks), and only use the built-in reverb & chorus of the Y-SXG50. No extra effects, post-processing, no nothing. Check the recordings from my linked article in the OP; these old DOS soundtracks still sound glorious.

I'll do just that, thanks!

Our current game (hasn't been fully announced yet but you can still see it on our website) is an NES game (on a real cartridge), so we use the real tech for the chiptune. For the next game, it will be more a retro-DOS game. I just feel it's more complicated to get the proper sound and tech working, so your help is very appreciated.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

I'm on a game MIDI kick lately, having figured out how to properly configure the excellent Foobar2000 music library organizer/player to use the actual Roland Sound Canvas VA and Yamahah S-YXG50 soft synths, so just thought I'd bump this topic and mention Rincewind's comparison article, which I read yesterday and was very informative indeed (I didn't even know that was our own Rincewind so that was a surprise). Even did a few A/B comparisons myself to see if my Roland Sound Canvas VA installation sounds the same as his. It did, but his MP3s sound clearer. He must have all sorts of hardware shit to get the best it can be. But seriously, I've given up on soundfonts. Once you hear the System Shock score on the original hardware used to compose it (almost indistinguishable from the CD score), old Microsoft synths and soundfonts just don't cut it anymore.

 

[Rincewind]

I'm on a game MIDI kick lately, having figured out how to properly configure the excellent Foobar2000 music library organizer/player to use the actual Roland Sound Canvas VA and Yamahah S-YXG50 soft synths, so just thought I'd bump this topic and mention Rincewind's comparison article, which I read yesterday and was very informative indeed (I didn't even know that was our own Rincewind so that was a surprise).

Glad you enjoyed my OCD-fuelled article

Even did a few A/B comparisons myself to see if my Roland Sound Canvas VA installation sounds the same as his. It did, but his MP3s sound clearer. He must have all sorts of hardware shit to get the best it can be.

I recorded the MIDI output of DOSBox into ".mid" files, then rendered the SCVA results in a DAW (REAPER). So no hardware was involved in that, that's a 100% software path.

But seriously, I've given up on soundfonts. Once you hear the System Shock score on the original hardware used to compose it (almost indistinguishable from the CD score), old Microsoft synths and soundfonts just don't cut it anymore.

Yeah, exactly. FluidSynth is not capable of reproducing what the SC-55 is capable of, it's always gonna be an approximation (there are insurmountable technical limitations for that; it's simply not possible even if we 100% understood the workings of the SC-55). It's a fallback option; there's zero reason for using SF2 files if you can use SCVA or the S-YXG50. I was considering doing an SF2 shootout too as part 2, but they're so much off the mark compared to the SC-55 it's rather pointless (like "in what particular way do you want your game music to sound completely wrong?").

The S-YXG50 is a dream come true; it is very faithful to the Yamaha MU80 and it's completely free. I know people are able to use it under Linux too via WINE.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

But seriously, I've given up on soundfonts. Once you hear the System Shock score on the original hardware used to compose it (almost indistinguishable from the CD score), old Microsoft synths and soundfonts just don't cut it anymore.

Yeah, exactly. FluidSynth is not capable of reproducing what the SC-55 is capable of, it's always gonna be an approximation (there are insurmountable technical limitations for that; it's simply not possible even if we 100% understood the workings of the SC-55). It's a fallback option; there's zero reason for using SF2 files if you can use SCVA or the S-YXG50. I was considering doing an SF2 shootout too as part 2, but they're so much off the mark compared to the SC-55 it's rather pointless (like "in what particular way do you want your game music to sound completely wrong?").

The S-YXG50 is a dream come true; it is very faithful to the Yamaha MU80 and it's completely free. I know people are able to use it under Linux too via WINE.

I checked out Falcosoft MidiPlayer with his included custom soundfont and it sounded pretty good but still not close to the official Roland and Yamaha soft-synthesizers. I still think Roland Sound Canvas VA sounds better than the S-YXG50 for GM files (the Yamaha can have too much of that "synthesizer" sound with GM, imo) but, man, that S-YXG50 sounds best of all, magnificent in fact, with MIDIs composed with the extended XG format. My Foobar2000 program requires you to select a MIDI "flavor" (eg GS SC-55, XG, GM, GM2, GS SC-88, etc.) for proper playback of MIDIs for the authentic sound and it's a pain in the ass to have to manually select that since I have so many different MIDI formats in my collection. I wish there was a way to have Foobar2000 auto-detect the format since they can sound radically different (and just plain WRONG) if you select the wrong "flavor".

 

[deama]

Is there a way to download it? It just sends me to some streaming platform, I don't like those.
I don't see a download button there on the streaming platform.

 

[Ahnx]

Speaking of MIDI, that reminds me...

1987

 

[Jack Of Owls]

Is there a way to download it? It just sends me to some streaming platform, I don't like those.
I don't see a download button there on the streaming platform.

Aye, matey. I would just do a search for Roland Sound Canvas VA v1.1.3 and be done with it. Don't be letting those Roland cutthroats be giving you the hornswaggle. You know what to do, you know where to go.

 

[deama]

Is there a way to download it? It just sends me to some streaming platform, I don't like those.
I don't see a download button there on the streaming platform.

Aye, matey. I would just do a search for Roland Sound Canvas VA v1.1.3 and be done with it. Don't be letting those Roland cutthroats be giving you the hornswaggle. You know what to do, you know where to go.

I already have the VSTs.