"Game Development is more complex than you understand" is an industry deflection on poor management

[Norfleet]

Eventually, everything becomes a cargo cult, and things will fall apart, at first gradually, then at some point catastrophically (I'm thinking here particularly of Lysenkoism and crop disasters in the Soviet Union, and also a bit about Idiocracy).

This isn't an EVENTUALLY, this is a HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, with planes that fall out of the sky and shit.

 

[Pound Meat]

It's similar in my former field of music: creatives are ten a penny, great ideas are ten a penny; what's really rare and precious is good people managers.

Spoiler

Top image: Warren Spector holding Ultima Worlds of Adventure 2: Martian Dreams, 1991

Bottom image: TSR profile of Warren Spector appearing in Dragon Magazine #123, July 1987

I miss the early 90s. I was too young to really understand how great a time I existed in.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Wokeness and soyfaggotry is the problem, and that is because soy retardation is a disease of the creative people themselves, not the managers.

There is nothing you can think of that would account for the shit show that is modern gaming that didn't exist in the 90s already. Management problems, retards in charge, all that stuff always existed. Games were always problematic to make and developers were always at war with the publishers or some demented higher up who understood nothing about the product and never even cared to begin with.

Yet, some good games still got made. Why? Because despite the difficulty of pushing a title out the door there were still developers out there with good ideas and a love for the medium.

But what can you do when the developers themselves are retarded? You can have the most ideal working conditions possible and the best management in the world but if your talent is compromised you are shit out of a luck no matter what.

And let's not forget where those woke people come from and why they gravitate towards the gaming industry. It is not because those people love games. It is because they are people who either lack the talent or cannot cope with a real work environment so they end up in fields where they think they can escape the rigors of an actual corporate job, a place where they can be "creative" and "free". Truth is the gaming industry is just as brutal as any other corporate work environment if not more so.

The result is twofold. First, no good ideas are put forward because those people never actually cared about the games, they just thought they could get paid for doing jack shit basically. Second, because they believed working in creative fields meant doing nothing all day besides being "creative" and "networking" with people or whatever the fuck the second they are subject to the crunch of a normal working routine they suddenly fold and the whole team collapses.

 

[gurugeorge]

It's similar in my former field of music: creatives are ten a penny, great ideas are ten a penny; what's really rare and precious is good people managers.

Spoiler

Top image: Warren Spector holding Ultima Worlds of Adventure 2: Martian Dreams, 1991

Bottom image: TSR profile of Warren Spector appearing in Dragon Magazine #123, July 1987

I miss the early 90s. I was too young to really understand how great a time I existed in.

In retrospect, and having lived from 1959 till now, it was pretty much the last gasp of Western civ, where the curves of subverted civilization and rising poz intersected. Kids these days have no idea what a relatively happy time it was for most people, and how relatively trivial (or just time/tach-contextual) the problems people moaned about then were. It still seemed like there was a future ahead of us then ...

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

It's similar in my former field of music: creatives are ten a penny, great ideas are ten a penny; what's really rare and precious is good people managers.

Spoiler

Top image: Warren Spector holding Ultima Worlds of Adventure 2: Martian Dreams, 1991

Bottom image: TSR profile of Warren Spector appearing in Dragon Magazine #123, July 1987

I miss the early 90s. I was too young to really understand how great a time I existed in.

In retrospect, and having lived from 1959 till now, it was pretty much the last gasp of Western civ, where the curves of subverted civilization and rising poz intersected. Kids these days have no idea what a relatively happy time it was for most people, and how relatively trivial (or just time/tach-contextual) the problems people moaned about then were. It still seemed like there was a future ahead of us then ...

I was born in the early 60's but I see what you mean. At the time, we all thought the world was going to end because of nukes, or the miner's strike, or an IRA bomb. But we had so many more options then. You genuinely could just walk in somewhere, ask for a job and be in with a good chance of getting it if you looked sharp. As a lower class bloke, there was solidarity with your neighbours and co-workers. But we all wanted to better ourselves and not live on the fucking Dole forever. There wasn't as much reliance on Uni degrees and so people were less brainwashed and rigid. And things were cheap. Food, rent, you could live like a normal human being and work to better your circumstances. People don't realise just how much has been taken from ALL of us. The Dindu's are half way there. But like the narcissistic cunts they are they think it's only ever them that has the bulletproof glass ceiling.

Of course, the middle and upper classes don't care. All this SJW and other bollocks benefits them the most. And for whatever bizzare reason most game devs come from middle to upper class families and have the gall to pretend to be poor. Whilst the wages aren't great they have families they rely on which is how they're even able to live in affluent areas of LA, and other metropolitan cities. And this creates the complacany I've talked about. No one is hungry. No one wants to work for money. Because you get looked after by the bank of Mum and Dad. So you can afford to be a pretentious prat who makes a game about a bulldyke beating the shit out of a ugly lesbian pregnant woman and call it high art. Because you never struggled and had to make hard decisions in order to keep working and earning so you can eat for the week.

 

[Gregz]

Having recently returned to the game industry just as people decided a virus with a 98% survival rate amongst it's core demographic was worthy enough to derail everybody's livelihood, I've been seeing this deflection more and more when games either come out shit or some disaster has struck. Recently I tried watching this video, which basically encapsulates this stupid deflection. The rage of someone too old for this fucking bullshit has been unleashed. The answer is much more simple than you realise. And this is coming from someone with experience both in and out of the industry with managing projects



There's a wilful ignorance here that is all too common within an already rotten industry. Don't let any of the wokeskalds steer you wrong with their disingenuous bullshit. Let creepy old man Trans-Financial Man set you straight.

Okay so in games, you HAVE to manage everyone effectively. Historically even before wokeness game devs were awful at this. Put a bunch of low T arrested development manchildren in a room and tell them to manage several million dollars worth of assets and see what happens. Another excuse they like to give is that "no plan survives contact with the enemy." Absolutely true. But you've been tasked with delivering a product to a standard. Not deliver excuses. And the industry delivers excuses far more than products.

No one seems willing to be the big bad bastard anymore.

"No, I know you're attached to that feature but it won't be done by the deadline. We're cutting it."
"No you can't spend money on R&D six months before we're supposed to go gold. Get the game done."
"I don't give a fuck about Allah or your gash wound. I am not firing my top programmer with high productivity for an untrained intern from a "gaming college", what the fuck is that by the way?"

You're not going to get called up by the HR in your own company. Especially if you have a proven record of money making. The high profile firings you hear about in the corporate world are over far more than "Sexual Harrasement". You stand and stop capitulating to bullshit you soy fueled cretin.

Things happen, plans change. But you deliver your product as best you can. Even if you can't plan around every disaster you've organised your team in such a way that they remain professional and react to any disaster as best as possible. And you have the experience to at least anticipate the majority of expected difficulties. But delays are a symptom of poor management. They may well happen. But SHOULD only happen in the most dire of mitigating circumstances. Like a global pretend pandemic that governments are overreacting to, or your entire staff walking out due to your shitty management. Game cancellations happen because the team and the product they are making cannot be salvaged. STOP MAKING EXCUSES. Stop blaming the mean old publisher, YOU got into bed with them. They just want a product that makes money.

Wokeness is a symptom of the larger problem. Of course it's causing issues but on it's own it's not inherently forcing soy guzzling CEOs from firing their men for diversity quotas. Whilst other IT jobs have not been spared the woke lash, Game dev has always been considered a joke job. The thing you do when you still have some passion but not actual talent or skill. Most other fields in IT are still result driven. And the ones that aren't are quickly being stomped on by the pandemic. We laugh at game devs all the time. If we take a contract, some work for hire, or sign on with a publisher we are expected to produce a product within a satisfactory time-frame. And if not their better be a good reason why.

TL/DR: The biggest problem in the industry is no one has a spine and everyone makes excuses instead of addressing real problems.

Excellent post, and it’s all true, but software development is notoriously risky and difficult to manage. It is very unlike most other human endeavors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month

 

[J1M]

Small correction: wokeness is not a disease, it is a cult. The daily call to praise diversity, the systemic work to convert new followers, root out and punish unbelievers, and so on has more in common with a religion than a virus.

 

[Savecummer]

It's similar in my former field of music: creatives are ten a penny, great ideas are ten a penny; what's really rare and precious is good people managers.

Spoiler

Top image: Warren Spector holding Ultima Worlds of Adventure 2: Martian Dreams, 1991

Bottom image: TSR profile of Warren Spector appearing in Dragon Magazine #123, July 1987

I miss the early 90s. I was too young to really understand how great a time I existed in.

In retrospect, and having lived from 1959 till now, it was pretty much the last gasp of Western civ, where the curves of subverted civilization and rising poz intersected. Kids these days have no idea what a relatively happy time it was for most people, and how relatively trivial (or just time/tach-contextual) the problems people moaned about then were. It still seemed like there was a future ahead of us then ...

I was born in the early 60's but I see what you mean. At the time, we all thought the world was going to end because of nukes, or the miner's strike, or an IRA bomb. But we had so many more options then. You genuinely could just walk in somewhere, ask for a job and be in with a good chance of getting it if you looked sharp. As a lower class bloke, there was solidarity with your neighbours and co-workers. But we all wanted to better ourselves and not live on the fucking Dole forever. There wasn't as much reliance on Uni degrees and so people were less brainwashed and rigid. And things were cheap. Food, rent, you could live like a normal human being and work to better your circumstances. People don't realise just how much has been taken from ALL of us. The Dindu's are half way there. But like the narcissistic cunts they are they think it's only ever them that has the bulletproof glass ceiling.

Of course, the middle and upper classes don't care. All this SJW and other bollocks benefits them the most. And for whatever bizzare reason most game devs come from middle to upper class families and have the gall to pretend to be poor. Whilst the wages aren't great they have families they rely on which is how they're even able to live in affluent areas of LA, and other metropolitan cities. And this creates the complacany I've talked about. No one is hungry. No one wants to work for money. Because you get looked after by the bank of Mum and Dad. So you can afford to be a pretentious prat who makes a game about a bulldyke beating the shit out of a ugly lesbian pregnant woman and call it high art. Because you never struggled and had to make hard decisions in order to keep working and earning so you can eat for the week.

ok boomer

 

[Alpan]

We laugh at game devs all the time. If we take a contract, some work for hire, or sign on with a publisher we are expected to produce a product within a satisfactory time-frame. And if not their better be a good reason why.

I call bullshit on this, and consequently on this guy. Either that, or the kind of game devs you laugh at are probably Unity developers or hobbyists. Most business and IT software is dog-shit, fueled by dog-shit development practices, the slowness and crumminess of which is subsidized by advances in hardware and tolerated by the client base who has no conception or understanding of what quality or fast software looks like, and are only interested in solving some trivial business case.

What you call "result-driven" software would be laughed out of the building in any game studio that takes its job seriously. It takes much, much more effort, and real engineering to make something like this look great and work fast than whatever crap you managed to conjure up in X scrum meetings or whatever:

 

[Straight elf]

The reality is, as usual, a bit more complicated. The issue with covid is not that it kills two percent of senior citizens but that it can overwhelm even the most developed healthcare systems if left spread unchecked in the population. Putting restrictions in place is not just good economics (there is now pretty much a consensus on that among serious economists) but also good politics (surely Trump wishes he had not lost the seniors in the Midwest over his mishandling of the epidemic). All the Trumps, Bolsonaros, Orbans who tried to play tough guys in the pandemic got royalty fucked by it and might be soon out of power because of that. Meanwhile, a careful evaluation of evidence and listening to experts seems to be the right approach, even though success is not guaranteed either way. The same can be said for game development.

Becoming a living embodiment of mid 20 century hard but fair boss is not going to cut it in the information economy. Game developers are for the most part highly technically skilled professionals with decent reservation options with competitor developers and outside of the industry. Yet, they likely prefer to develop games over doing something else - and also possibly prefer working on their game as opposed to some other game. So that gives you a bit of leeway when you need it (and you are going to need it for the pre-release crunch). But in the end the way to successfully manage professional teams requires a manager who can level with his people and gain their trust not a cliched "tough guy".

Nor is making decisions so easy. It's funny to read Codex calling for cutting features to make the deadline. It was a common wisdom here that cutting features is something that evil capitalist fat cats force the devs to do in order to earn more shekels. If only were the poor developers allowed to implement everything they want to see the game and then sit down and "spit and polish" their masterpiece for years, then all games would be wonderful and bug free. Bullshit? Indeed. But the opposite is also not true. Not all features can be simply cut, some absolutely need to be in the game otherwise the whole thing fall apart. Not every deadline needs to be made. But some features can and indeed should be cut and deadlines can't be failed all the time. In reality it is super difficult to get game development right even for skilled developers with all the right motivations. Failure is inevitable from time to time that has always been the case even though we tend to remember only the success stories from the past due to survivorship bias.

So indeed, game development is fucking complex. That's inherent to any creative activity. Has little to do with feminists, testosterone levels, diversity, women and whatnot.

 

[Gerrard]

We laugh at game devs all the time. If we take a contract, some work for hire, or sign on with a publisher we are expected to produce a product within a satisfactory time-frame. And if not their better be a good reason why.

I call bullshit on this, and consequently on this guy. Either that, or the kind of game devs you laugh at are probably Unity developers or hobbyists. Most business and IT software is dog-shit, fueled by dog-shit development practices, the slowness and crumminess of which is subsidized by advances in hardware and tolerated by the client base who has no conception or understanding of what quality or fast software looks like, and are only interested in solving some trivial business case.

What you call "result-driven" software would be laughed out of the building in any game studio that takes its job seriously. It takes much, much more effort, and real engineering to make something like this look great and work fast than whatever crap you managed to conjure up in X scrum meetings or whatever:

That thumbnail, obligatory wet floor because otherwise you would have nothing to show off.
Raytracing is such a fucking joke and devs pushing it should be euthanized, along with nvidia jews.

 

[Sweeper]

My interest in vidya has long since been relegated to some autists developing their autism projects, and the occasional AA or AAA game that has thematic allure... like WH40K.
I couldn't give a fraction of a shit for 99.9% of AAA titles, because they're mechanically and creatively bankrupt.
Make money to make games, not the other way around.

What you call "result-driven" software would be laughed out of the building in any game studio that takes its job seriously. It takes much, much more effort, and real engineering to make something like this look great and work fast than whatever crap you managed to conjure up in X scrum meetings or whatever:

You know, several autists have managed to create better games in their basements than most of the shit the entire vidya industry puts out. If you set out by prioritizing graphics over everything else, then you've failed at game development.
I don't give a fuck how photorealistic your game is.

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

We laugh at game devs all the time. If we take a contract, some work for hire, or sign on with a publisher we are expected to produce a product within a satisfactory time-frame. And if not their better be a good reason why.

I call bullshit on this, and consequently on this guy. Either that, or the kind of game devs you laugh at are probably Unity developers or hobbyists. Most business and IT software is dog-shit, fueled by dog-shit development practices, the slowness and crumminess of which is subsidized by advances in hardware and tolerated by the client base who has no conception or understanding of what quality or fast software looks like, and are only interested in solving some trivial business case.

What you call "result-driven" software would be laughed out of the building in any game studio that takes its job seriously. It takes much, much more effort, and real engineering to make something like this look great and work fast than whatever crap you managed to conjure up in X scrum meetings or whatever:

Spotted the salty game dev. Get back to work. You're next on the chopping block.

Your deflection is that "everyone else is as shit as I am!"? Really? I can't speak for the entire IT field but everywhere I've worked has had some level of professionalism above game devs and laugh at you lot constantly. But I don't work in Silicon Valley so maybe being in the kingdom of the blind has given you a fucked perspective.

 

[Alpan]

That thumbnail, obligatory wet floor because otherwise you would have nothing to show off.
Raytracing is such a fucking joke and devs pushing it should be euthanized, along with nvidia jews.

I actually agree, it's just an example. I could have shown any AAA game that runs well. And the point is not that ray-tracing is amazing tech (it's actually old tech), but that making all that run at 60 frames per second is much, much more challenging technically then whatever hack job the imbecile OP is probably saddled with in his day job.

 

[Savecummer]

CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs(https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/01/30/1017086/cdc-44-million-vaccine-data-vams-problems/)

 

[Savecummer]

The TSA Randomizer iPad App Cost $1.4 Million
Posted on April 3, 2016


You may have seen the TSA Randomizer on your last flight. A TSA agent holds an iPad. The agent taps the iPad, a large arrow points right or left, and you follow it into a given lane.

How much does the TSA pay for an app that a beginner could build in a day? It turns out the TSA paid IBM $1.4 million dollars for it.

 

[Savecummer]

Elon Musky, the Chris R of the software wurld, waiting for patch 3.14 with world sharding!

December 2015: "We're going to end up with complete autonomy, and I think we will have complete autonomy in approximately two years."

January 2016: "In ~2 years, summon should work anywhere connected by land & not blocked by borders, eg you're in LA and the car is in NY"

June 2016: "I really consider autonomous driving a solved problem, I think we are less than two years away from complete autonomy, safer than humans, but regulations should take at least another year," Musk said.

March 2017: "I think that [you will be able to fall asleep in a tesla] is about two years"

March 2018: "I think probably by end of next year [end of 2019] self-driving will encompass essentially all modes of driving and be at least 100% to 200% safer than a person."

Nov 15, 2018: "Probably technically be able to [self deliver Teslas to customers doors] in about a year then its up to the regulators"

Feb 19 2019: "We will be feature complete full self driving this year. The car will be able to find you in a parking lot, pick you up, take you all the way to your destination without an intervention this year. I'm certain of that. That is not a question mark. It will be essentially safe to fall asleep and wake up at their destination towards the end of next year"

April 12th 2019: "I'd be shocked if not next year, at the latest that having the person, having human intervene will decrease safety. DECREASE! (in response to human supervision and adding driver monitoring system)"

April 22nd 2019: "We expect to be feature complete in self driving this year, and we expect to be confident enough from our standpoint to say that we think people do not need to touch the wheel and can look out the window sometime probably around the second quarter of next year."

April 22nd 2019: “We will have more than one million robotaxis on the road,” Musk said. “A year from now, we’ll have over a million cars with full self-driving, software... everything."

May 9th 2019: "We could have gamed an LA/NY Autopilot journey last year, but when we do it this year, everyone with Tesla Full Self-Driving will be able to do it too"

Dec 1, 2020: “I am extremely confident of achieving full autonomy and releasing it to the Tesla customer base next year. But I think at least some jurisdictions are going to allow full self-driving next year.”

 

[Savecummer]

Darkunderlord is updating to Xenforo2 since it came out!

 

[PrettyDeadman]

video game development is one of the hardest things there is.

 

[Nutria]

I just find it weird that as incompetent as game devs are, they can always come up with a better UI than any other kind of software.

 

[Savecummer]

video game development is one of the hardest things there is.

My cock is much harder.

 

[Savecummer]

I just find it weird that as incompetent as game devs are, they can always come up with a better UI than any other kind of software.

Together with NWN games, havent seen a worse design anywhere else, ever.
Radials are not supposed to have multiple fucking layers!
Fanning out leaflets in non linear, circle fashion that is not centered on the previous element.
Leaflets of uneven size and position making it a point and click target practice.
It fucking reorders itself too! (when items give extra spells of abilities)
Absolutely horrific for memorization.
And if you have to hold down the mouse button for them not to collapse - than its teh pinnacle of retardation.

 

[Vormulak]

I just find it weird that as incompetent as game devs are, they can always come up with a better UI than any other kind of software.

Together with NWN games, havent seen a worse design anywhere else, ever.
Radials are not supposed to have multiple fucking layers!
Fanning out leaflets in non linear, circle fashion that is not centered on the previous element.
Leaflets of uneven size and position making it a point and click target practice.
It fucking reorders itself too! (when items give extra spells of abilities)
Absolutely horrific for memorization.
And if you have to hold down the mouse button for them not to collapse - than its teh pinnacle of retardation.

>he unironically hates the ease of use and convenience of radial dial menu
let me guess you wanna spend 300 hours opening and closing some gay ass pop-up style menu.

 

[Savecummer]

Can you read what I wrote, you mental midget?

 

[Twiglard]

Radials are not supposed to have multiple fucking layers!

They're actually meant to, since it works with muscle memory unlike normal menus. The problem is that the menus differ depending on the character and level, and aren't sufficiently distinctive.