Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Felipepepe's Videogame History Articles Thread

Drowed

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2011
Messages
1,744
Location
Core City
That's fundamentally different from FFXII, because you always execute an attack then wait for your turn to come up again.

How is this different from, say, Baldur's Gate? In both games, you can move around anytime by positioning the characters in the environment. In both games, time goes by, and at certain specific points within time, the characters perform their "actions". The actions of the characters do can/will be [instantaneous] and need some [recovery time] after it - or even, can happen after a [loading/charging period] in some games.

The only difference I can see between the two is that in FF XII, actions are done through a menu and that the "reload time" is visible with a bar; while in BG,the time to the next action of your character is "hidden".
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,310
Location
Terra da Garoa
Baldur's Gate actually has a bunch of rounds happening every 6 seconds. Compared with something like 7.62 High Calibre or even Pillars of Eternity, where time is fluid and not stuck to rounds, one can also argue that Baldur's Gate is not really "REAL TIME with Pause". FFS, you can go into the options menu and ask it to pause at the start of every round so you can give orders.

Still, BG it's the iconic RTwP game. Sometimes definitions just suck and the context / lineage takes a front seat. :/
 

Drowed

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2011
Messages
1,744
Location
Core City
I guess my point is that neither BG or FFXII can be considered turn-based - no more than a game of Tennis. You have a free movement of the characters that is done in "real time", but the specific action of them occurs at certain intervals (in the case of Tennis, when the ball is within reach). Since you have the ability to control your character - being able to move away from an enemy, coming out of their reach or leaving the area of damage from an attack or similar things -, you don't have any break in your interaction. There is no difference between "my turn / your turn", AKA, there's no "turn" here. Both the player and the enemy can interact with the world simultaneously, which literally breaks the definition of a "turn".

It's a real-time game where certain types of interaction happen at specific intervals - but if the world isn't frozen during your "time", or during your opponent's "time", you cannot really call it a turn. Hell, even Super Mario RPG can technically be considered something hybrid since you can act to escape the attacks in the turn of your enemies. And that's why people here are reacting to your claim that FFXII is a turn-based game, because it can't be. Your definition of turn is very strange.
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
4,334
Baldur's Gate actually has a bunch of rounds happening every 6 seconds. Compared with something like 7.62 High Calibre or even Pillars of Eternity, where time is fluid and not stuck to rounds, one can also argue that Baldur's Gate is not really "REAL TIME with Pause". FFS, you can go into the options menu and ask it to pause at the start of every round so you can give orders.

Still, BG it's the iconic RTwP game. Sometimes definitions just suck and the context / lineage takes a front seat. :/

Write an article "The best RTwP game is not really RTwP" and be smug and condescending about it :)
 

hilfazer

Scholar
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
224
That is your metric?
Yes, it is.
I used to think "sequential = turn based, simultaneous = real time" and was happy with that definition, but then i learned about simultaneous TB and had to change my mind.
I started to wonder again what makes combat RT and what makes it TB. I looked at RTwP and started to wonder why is it bashed so much? It has the advantage of infinite time to make decisions and advantage of avoiding problems inherent to sequential action execution. The best RTwP critique i've seen (it was here on Codex) was something like this:
"Pause kills action".
Makes sense. Real Time is about action, player's reflexes and fighting the time. Turn based is the opposite. RTwP has failed at being RT.
In FFs player fights the time, player's reflexes matter. Like in RT.

Then there is that 'Wait mode'. In my previous post i've explained that 'Wait mode' is actually an active pause. Why would a TB game need an active pause?! They hardly need a standard pause!

In RT games Wait option exist naturally. You perform Wait by doing nothing. In (sequential) TB games there is no natural Wait option, it has to be implemented and, fortunately, many TB system do this. To Wait you need to choose it as an action. In FFs you wait by doing nothing, do nothing long enough and you'll die. Sounds like real time to me.

No matter how fast you are with menus, you can't do shit while Sephiroth is casting his 5 minute-long spells - because it's his TURN.
Same thing happens in PS:T, which is RTwP. Game pauses to show player its awesome animations.
Animations don't matter much. They could be removed and system would not change a bit. We have ToEE - sequential TB game, but there is an option to allow simultaneous enemy animations. IIRC it doesn't make action execution simultaneous, it's just for animations.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,310
Location
Terra da Garoa
I guess my point is that neither BG or FFXII can be considered turn-based - no more than a game of Tennis. You have a free movement of the characters that is done in "real time", but the specific action of them occurs at certain intervals (in the case of Tennis, when the ball is within reach)
It's a fair point. I would argue that in tennis you *can* act any time you want - it's just that you'll miss - but the point about movement stands.

So we have an issue: one could say that in BG2 and FFXII movement is real-time but attacks are still restricted to turns/rounds, so what do we call them?

Write an article "The best RTwP game is not really RTwP" and be smug and condescending about it :)
BIOWARE LIES: YEAR ONE
 

Zenith

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
296
XEWiynf.png
Engaging a blue frog up close, wtf are you doing felipepepe

Also seems you fucked up the resolution, here as well. The game stretches from either 800x450 or 1600x900 without any filtering. Here's an article you might find useful.
 

Momock

Augur
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
666
simultaneous TB
It's real time with mandatory pause every X time, there isn't any turns here. Turns, by definition, are "rotatives" (don't know how to put it... it's like your turn, then my turn, then his turn, etc).
 

Lahey

Laheyist
Patron
Joined
Jun 10, 2017
Messages
1,467
Grab the Codex by the pussy
So we have an issue: one could say that in BG2 and FFXII movement is real-time but attacks are still restricted to turns/rounds, so what do we call them?
Hiroyuki Ito called FF12's "Active Dimension Battle": https://www.giantbomb.com/active-dimension-battle/3015-685/
First appearing in Final Fantasy XII, the ADB system is a cross between the ATB (Active Time Battle) system used in offline Final Fantasy games and the RTB (Real-Time Battle) system used in the online Final Fantasy XI. In ADB, the battles are seamless, with no battle transitions or separate battle maps. The gameplay mechanics of ADB are a mixture of Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy Tactics, and Final Fantasy XI. A major feature in games that use ADB is Auto-Attack replacing manually entering basic attacks.
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,831
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Baldur's Gate actually has a bunch of rounds happening every 6 seconds. Compared with something like 7.62 High Calibre or even Pillars of Eternity, where time is fluid and not stuck to rounds, one can also argue that Baldur's Gate is not really "REAL TIME with Pause". FFS, you can go into the options menu and ask it to pause at the start of every round so you can give orders.

Still, BG it's the iconic RTwP game. Sometimes definitions just suck and the context / lineage takes a front seat. :/

Nah BG is definitely a real-time with pause game, through and through. Unit movement is always executed immediately (after a small random delay that eliminates synchronized animations), and all non-movement unit actions are structured in a similar manner to the other games you mentioned, but the number of frames (or length in time) of the segments of performing an action are governed by different rules than the other games.

edit: after reading a few resources on pathfinding this weekend, the small delay to unit movement in the Infinity Engine games may actually be the unit waiting for the pathfinder to calculate a path.
 
Last edited:

Hirato

Purse-Owner
Patron
Joined
Oct 16, 2010
Messages
4,001
Location
Australia
Codex 2012 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Baldur's Gate actually has a bunch of rounds happening every 6 seconds. Compared with something like 7.62 High Calibre or even Pillars of Eternity, where time is fluid and not stuck to rounds, one can also argue that Baldur's Gate is not really "REAL TIME with Pause". FFS, you can go into the options menu and ask it to pause at the start of every round so you can give orders.

Still, BG it's the iconic RTwP game. Sometimes definitions just suck and the context / lineage takes a front seat. :/

But that option just effectively makes it pause every second if you have a full party; it doesn't pause every 6 seconds as anyone would reasonably expect from such an option, as the turns aren't synchronised but rather haphazardly strewn all over.
I've tried to play BG with that option and it just makes a confusing clusterfuck an even more confusing and disorienting clusterfuck.


And I wouldn't call Final Fantasy X-2 or XII turn-based, and I hold that the former would've been a much better game if it were like X before it.
Its implementation of combat just irritates me.
Let's say the enemy consists of 2 elementals and some coyotes.

I notice one of my characters is getting a bit low on HP, so I queue a cure, and just before this is cast, the cast gauge completes for the enemy elementals.
So as a result, my entire party is frozen in place, while the enemy delivers their magic attacks
E1; unleashes fire; fire; fire on the party
Coyotes: all of them attack the party, the first while the fire spell was still being cast
E2: unleashes fire; fire; fire on the party,
Coyotes: All of them attack the party
E1: next cast about 60% complete as E2's spell ends
R: Finally attacks
Coyote: All of them attack the party
Y: Finally casts cure on paine - animation had to restart due to coyote attack
P: finally attacks no longer frozen due to being a spell target

Notice how many attacks the coyotes get, because by using regular attacks the game doesn't make them wait for the other actions to finish.
IMO, it's bullshit and unfair, and it's one of the key reason I would never ever refer to it as a turn-based system.
If they changed is to that the coyotes had to wait their turn like my party had to, I would begrudgingly accept it when people referred to it as a TB system.

I'd apply the same to FFXII - just take any group spell
One it's ready to cast, it sends out this slow travelling orb that goes to each target in the circle one by one by one.
I have lost count of how many deaths I had that could've been prevented had the cura spell affected all targets within 1s, instead of spending 3s per target
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,310
Location
Terra da Garoa
If anyone is interested in the story behind Legends of Istanbul: Tulip Warriors, an obscure Turkish RPGs: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Feli..._The_story_of_Turkeys_video_game_pioneers.php

Digital Tulip Warriors: The story of Turkey's video game pioneers

Sadly, I can't read Turkish. You, dear reader, probably can't read it either.

This means that we can't properly play İstanbul Efsaneleri: Lale Savaşçıları – aka Legends of Istanbul: Tulip Warriors – a first-person dungeon crawler first released for the AMIGA in 1994. But that's not really what's important here. What makes Tulip Warriors so fascinating is not its gameplay – is everything else.

One of the first games developed in Turkey, Tulip Warriors is an RPG that takes players to modern-day Istanbul, where your party of workers, teachers, punks, prostitutes, intellectuals and government officers join forces to battle against a wave of ignorance & lies taking over the city.

CsVwEQ3.jpg


Made by Turkish & for Turkish, it features very niche cultural references, such as how the game's spells are nothing more than local slangs and insults. For example, "gel babana" (come to papa) works as a "Dominate" spell, being checked against the target's "Superstition" stats.

It's an extremely unique oddity: not only it's an RPG set in the modern era, but it's the direct result of local social, cultural and political anxieties. All made by a small team in a developing country, struggling with the lack of access to technology and information. As a Brazilian, I can relate to that.

Since there's almost no information about this game in English, I reached out to its designer, Özgür Özol, who graciously replied to all my questions and told a fascinating tale.

I struggled at first, trying to edit this into a shorter and more streamlined read, but soon gave up. Mr. Özol is a great storyteller, and I would be doing readers a disservice. Thus, here's the full interview:

- Legends of Istanbul: Tulip Warriors first came out in 1994 and was one of Turkey's first computer games. What were the challenges of developing a game in Turkey back then?

Özgür Özol: The development of Tulip Warriors was a two staged process. The first version was developed for AMIGA platform by our amateur group named Siliconworx – myself and Özgür Doğu Gürcan and the art and graphics were created by Tuncay Talayman. That version can be regarded as a "garage project".

haueZnK.jpg
Özgür Özol in the AMIGA version of the game

After about 1 year of its release (and by "release", I mean us literally visiting game shops in Istanbul, with backpacks full of game boxes that were hand copied and assembled by us and our families) things got different. Turkey's largest music production company back then was RAKS and they were entering the computer gaming market. Tulip Warriors was their choice of "local brand" for this new field. They really did not have that much choice of brands anyway, because it was a rare thing to develop computer games in Turkey.

Around the time this company offered us to produce the game for PC platform on CD (complete with movies and all sorts of shiny stuff), we were already on the way of developing a PC version, with the addition of new staff from another amateur group (Compuphiliacs): Gökhan San, Cengiz Günay, Aleks Pamir, while Emre Erdur was recruited to recreate the concept artwork. This also was an amateur, garage project until the company entered the scene.

The main challenge for the first period was us (18-20 year olds) trying to handle our lives, college and all the teenager stuff, while maintaining the development process. Almost every aspect of developing a computer game was a challenge: The market was tiny, people didn't really play computer games, let alone developing them. We had no source of technical help - the internet was merely an experiment those days. We did not have any financial support besides our families, and had no real means of mass producing and distributing. So it was an amateur challenge, one which proved to be real creative and fun. All three of us, with the help of many friends, had to contribute to the script, rules, maps, concept art, coding and even marketing.

KQhEEf0.jpg
Tulip Warriors is a first-person dungeon-crawler, with tactical turn-based combat

The challenges of the second version (RAKS, PC platform, 1995) were somewhat different. The team was larger and all the new recruits were talented, hardworking people. As the company handled the production and marketing aspects, the team (now 9 strong) concentrated on the artistic and technical stuff. We worked in RAKS studios and had some technical and financial support. The challenge of this period was to enhance the game to a level that could compete with the rapidly developing computer games of its time, while trying to cope up with concepts like "budget" or "deadlines" which were totally alien to the team. Besides the rules, every aspect of the game was recreated.

But though we had somewhat improved conditions, it should be noted that all the technologies we used were new and unknown to us. A perfect example on our confusion: The game would be printed on CD-ROMs but none of us in the team had a CD reader, let alone a CD writer. The CD reading routine had to be written blindly, depending solely on theory, without access to actual hardware and could only be tested months later, when we had access to actual CD readers. This can be said for most of the technological advances of the day (which were rapidly expanding) and we could not have instant access and support in Turkey for some time.

CKzQu0b.jpg
The team behind Legends of Istanbul: Tulip Warriors

So, in summary, the first challenge was to assemble a group of young people, crazy enough to develop a computer game with almost no formal training and technical support, in an environment that would certainly treat them as madmen. The second was to rapidly train and equip this team to the level that they could cope up with contemporary competition, while persuading the environment (Turkish market) that computer games were a thing and that we could even develop them. All of these were considerable challenges and we were glad and proud to be able to handle every one of them.

- The game is a first-person dungeon-crawler with tactical combat, somewhat like Realms of Arkania. Which games inspired the team?

The inspiration came from varied sources, of course. The main problem about this inspiration was also the fact that Turkey was following the gaming world from behind. Supply and promotion of games was erratic, even random. Many of us gamers in Turkey bought and played a game, only to discover in surprise that it was in fact the expansion pack of the second episode of a quadrilogy. So, the games that inspired us followed a somewhat random pattern.

Realms of Arkania was absolutely one of the games we played. But as I recall, it was the third episode (Shadows Over Riva). I played the first episode, Blade of Destiny years later. Other games that inspired us followed a similar pattern. The SSI Dungeons & Dragons series had an absolute impact. In fact, Tulip Warriors has a quest (the quest in Sarıyer) of getting rid of the "old school" SSI game characters that emerged from a broken AMIGA. As I recall, Death Knights of Krynn, Legend of Darkmoon, Pools of Darkness and Shadows Over Riva had the most impact on us. As the computer gaming market developed rapidly in the country, we realized that every one of these games were part of a series but none were the first episode and we played all of these series from scratch.

MKFLsXx.jpg
Eye of the Beholder II: Legend of Darkmoon (1992) & Realms of Arkania: Shadows over Riva (1996)

Also, those were the days we discovered that somewhere in the world, people were playing a tabletop game called Dungeons & Dragons (yes, we discovered this about one year after playing the computer game versions). Up until this day, we all remember the first D&D product that we could get our hands on(Tales of the Lance boxed set). As always, we realized that this was not a stand alone game in itself but an expansion to a much larger game "after" we bought it. So the usual cycle of learning from scratch restarted. The PC version of Tulip Warriors was developed while we were frantically playing tabletop AD&D2nd edition.

HUapD7Y.jpg
The Tales of the Lance boxed set

- While most RPGs are set in fantasy or sci-fi settings, Legends of Istanbul is all about the city of Istanbul and its inhabitants, with characters like teenagers wearing Helloween T-shirts, teachers, government officials, etc. Why did the team choose this setting?

In fact, the setting is not entirely about the city of İstanbul, but rather is a reflection of most of Turkey at the time, melted in a fantasy land we called "İstanbul".

The reason we chose İstanbul was because we were living in it. It is a huge metropolis, with millions of people rooted from very different cultures living together in a miraculous relative rapport. The city is a writer's dream which contains many interesting stories by itself and never hesitates to spill out some of these to your face if you get close enough.

ExaLolw.jpg
The game opens with the heroes playing soccer, kicking the ball into a building and finding a portal

The main monsters ("dragons") of the setting were social and economical problems of Turkey like "Inflation", "Ignorance" and "Mismanagement". These were not our inventions, it was already being called as the "inflation monster" by the media and everybody was used to many of these terms. We merely pulled them a little out of context and the humour was standing right in front of us.

The characters were also symbolic manifestations of sociocultural groups. The endurance capability of the overworked civil servant, the harsh attitude of the desperately underpaid teacher, the coarse and uncivilized manners of the man from the slums were not our inventions but merely reflections of what we experienced in everyday life.

xnzkWtM.jpg
Fantasy tropes were replaced by modern day Istanbul and its social classes.

In short, the setting in which we were living and the fact that this setting was actually working, was already "fantastic" enough that we probably did not need any other place to draw interesting ideas from.

- Legends of Istanbul is a humorous, but also very political game. It talks about how the city has fallen to bigotry and fanaticism under the rule of the evil "Sheik Ignorance". Please tell us a bit about the political climate at the time.

First of all, in the game, the city has not fallen to bigotry and fanaticism... Yet.

In fact, as the story opens, the city is just slightly different from its normal state, but is on the verge of falling under the influence of Ignorance if someone does not stop him, but nobody is aware of this imminent, insidious danger. His evil plan is convoluted but basically depends on some windmills blowing the "winds of ignorance" to the whole city. If this occurs, the agents of Ignorance will spread all kinds of lies and malarkey to the populace and everyone will believe any bullshit they are told. The heroes succeed in stopping this malignant plan, thus, save the city. So, the plot mainly carries a concerned, intervening theme.

cA5Hoa5.jpg


This, of course is about the political and social climate of those days. The country, and the the city was in a very similar state in the 90's. While the general populace was not fully aware of the situation, the country was tumbling down into an under-education, under-awareness crisis.

In order to understand the transformation and its throes, one needs to study Turkish history deeply and it is a long story, indeed. In short words, a newly prospering and thriving wealthy class was emerging rapidly and they lacked the cultural tools to sustain and maintain the social and political direction of the country. Things were bound to change fast and any learned person could sense the potential dangers and traps lurking in this rapid change. The story of the game was meant as a warning to those probabilities.

- Games with such strong political tone are rare, as companies don't want to lose sales to offended customers. What was the main goal behind Legends of Istanbul? Sending a political message, starting a business or just having fun?

Well, it certainly was not starting a business, I can tell you this much. I don't believe any of the team members considered what we were doing "business". On the other hand, as we all invested so much time and effort (years, literally) to the project, "just having fun" wasn't the main goal neither. In fact, I guess during the years we were involved in the project, total number of times that we had "fun" was much less and shorter than we had problems, fights, struggles and general distress.

So, I guess this leaves sending a message. And that message was simply: "Hi everybody, how about we all stop acting like dunderheads?" This was not a political message, because the political climate of Turkey in that time (last decade of the century) was not restricting nor inhibitive. The main problem we felt was not political but it was rather social and psychological. We were young and to be honest, we too were somewhat ignorant. So, with our limited knowledge and limitless courage, we dared to share that vague feeling of "something rotten cometh this way" in a humorous manner.

MlZBUax.jpg


Time proved us right and in the following decades people saw that "thing rotten" was mainly the wayward and antagonistic postures of various social structures in Turkey. In the end, I feel every smart person in the country began to understand that the problem was not in one particular group, but rather in the minds of everyone who firmly believed they were "right". This is the definition of ignorance in the game.

- How was the reception to the game? Was there any problems with people being offended or threatening you?

To my personal astonishment, the game was received as a real marvel right off the start. This accelerated in the coming years and even after 25 years, it is still held in great regard and respect.

The idea of some young Turkish students coming up with something like that with so limited resources, excited even the mainstream media (there was little exclusive media on the computer gaming subject anyway). People appreciated the presentation of a valid social issue in creative humour. Totaling the release, second printing and bundling of the game, a total of 50.000 people (so large a number for its day) played it and nearly every one had positive feedback. After the dust settled, it came to pass as the "first and last humorous game made in Turkey, featuring many catchy characters and a visionary social message".

hoOvsXR.jpg
An article about the game in Turkey's Aktüel magazine, from August 1995

In truth, I cannot say many people were offended or we were really threatened. Even after this many years, I still encounter people wishing to listen to the stories of the developers being threatened by "fundamental evil powers", but saying that would be an exaggeration. Of course, as seen against all forms of criticizing humour, some minor and local "rigidity" arose in the early days but none were real, solid threats.

The reason of that reaction was generally the false notion that the game had a statement specifically against religion. But the game quickly proved itself that it was not religion that created the problem, but stupidity and ignorance. Throughout the story, our heroes had to struggle with the pompousness of highbrow types, as well as the ignorance of roughnecks and louts. So, those sensibilities calmed down quickly, as it became clear that the game was not against a specific political or social group, it was rather satirizing any and all kinds of ignorance and illiberality.

- The game ends in a cliffhanger. Was there plans to make a Part 2?

Of course there was! The main storyline of Part 2: Time of the Tulip was already in discussion at the time of release of Part 1.

Tulips have been the symbolic flower of İstanbul for three centuries; since the so called "Tulip Era" (early 18th century) of the Ottoman Empire. It was a period in which scientific innovation and fine arts were being promoted as a government policy. A grueling effort to transform the elite into a European-like bourgeois, while keeping the moral values of the society mainly intact was underway. The social preservation aspect of the movement was unsuccessful and the elite was quickly alienated from the common people. This era ended in a fanatical uproar and the effort was delayed for almost two hundred years.

Part 2 was to be set in that time of İstanbul, right in the middle of the social uprising. After transforming into the Ignorance Monster, the defeated Sheik Ignorance enters a portal he creates and of course the heroes follow him. They enter an İstanbul of the 1700's and try to make their way back, while constantly battling against the problems set by this brutal uprising.

wVaGNBz.jpg


This project was abandoned because of two reasons: First, the team was dispersing, mainly going to colleges abroad. Second, despite the obvious fun that being in an İstanbul of 300 years ago would bring, we felt the message of the series should be expanded, not shrunk. So, in the coming years, another project was formed gradually. Legends of İstanbul Part 3 was a vivid subject for many years among the team, which was then scattered all around the world. It had the motto: "ignorance never dies, it merely transforms" and the main plot was about to find out what the heck happened to Part 2.

This is the last known position and vision of the project and is still valid as a distant dream. So, I should not give away too much information, I guess. But I can safely say that the approach is a less localized, more global approach to the concept of ignorance in the 21th century. Of course, the city of İstanbul is still at the heart of all things.

- Do you feel that Legends of Istanbul is still relevant in today's Turkey?

Legends of İstanbul is not all about İstanbul, nor Turkey per se. It is about the concept of ignorance and ignorance has many faces. The social, economical and cultural problems of Turkey at the end of the century has transformed, so has all the world. In my opinion, even if Turkey (and Middle East in general) suffered in the decades following the release of the game from the problems we pointed out, nowadays ignorance in another form has rooted more firmly in the Western cultures, especially after the spread of social media.

The Turkish people and government has suffered from the effects of the dangerous blind acceptance that we were trying to point out, in the last 30 years. They are gradually realizing the errors of that way and struggling to find means of reversing them. Meanwhile, for example in the USA and Britain, people are not even beginning to consider the destructive effects of the ignorance their cultures are tumbling down in the guise of security and stability. So, maybe we should try to warn them, like we tried here 30 years ago, that the problem is not all about religion or fundamentalism as they are taught to believe, but it is in the feeling of "righteousness".

My definition of ignorance is: "not knowing that you do not know". It is a dangerous condition and is often accompanied by a sense of pride, comfort, security and uniformity.

iBj9F4l.jpg
Sheik Ignorance, the game's villain.

So in summary, today's Turkey may still be suffering from the aftershocks of these symptoms but I believe it is on the verge of recovery, while the common people of many "developed" countries are only just beginning to enter an era of not knowing that they actually do not know. Given the political and military might of these countries, I am sincerely hoping for the whole world, that I am a bit over-pessimistic.

- What are you working on today? Did you make any other games?

Tulip Warriors was in fact the second computer game I made. The first one was Fields of Hope (in Turkish: Umut Tarlaları) which was published in 1993. It was a strategy game about farming which was inspired from corporation running games of the day, like Oil Imperium and Ports of Call. It is still considered to be one of the first "real" games made in Turkey.

After the release of Tulip Warriors, I started on Fields of Hope 2: Revenge of the Farmer, with some members of the team. This project was abandoned right after the research phase, because we decided to start up the first gaming cafe of Turkey in İstanbul.

It was called "Sihir Kafe" (magic cafe) and became the rallying point of gamers from all around the city. First started as a club of tabletop roleplayers, it quickly evolved into a gaming center, filled with RPG, boardgame, miniature wargaming, LARP and computer gaming fans. It lasted for 7 years (1997-2004) and during that period, I developed many board games, as well as RPGs but these were not published, rather distributed among the patrons of the club.

JZ4qjPn.jpg
Özgür Özol in 2014, teaching about game design

After that, I started developing a fantasy world named ILGANA. The setting is based on nomadic Turkish culture and Ancient Anatolian history. The first product of the setting was a novel that I wrote, was published in 2010. We gradually formed a core team composed of a historian (me), a linguist, and two concept designers. Besides the novel, we developed an RPG tabletop game two years ago but we were not satisfied with the result and abandoned it.

Nowadays, I am starting to work on a sequel novel, as well as another tabletop game that has much simpler rules and is more compatible with the setting itself. Maybe one day, when our over-perfectionist team finally decides it is ready, we will make a computer game out of it.

- Thank you very much for your time, and for this amazing story.

*I would also like to thank Yamaç Kurtulus for the help and passion in researching about this game.
 
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
891
Location
Canuckistan
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
I love these writings about how CRPGs developed in the non-anglosphere. IT's always fun to see what actually made it over, and what bits people latched onto.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,310
Location
Terra da Garoa
A minor detail is how memory & interviews are often unreliable... he mentions that he was influenced by Realms of Arkania III: Shadows over Riva, but that game came out in 96, two years AFTER his own game.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,310
Location
Terra da Garoa
I've noticed that some people are still reading this thread, so here's a last update: I moved my articles to Medium, which is much more flexible and doesn't depend on the Gamasutra editor liking my article or not.

Since the CRPG Book came out I've been looking into the stuff that was missing, mainly non-English RPGs and MMOs/MUDs:

- History of MMOs & MUDS: https://felipepepe.medium.com/roblox-is-a-mud-the-history-of-virtual-worlds-muds-mmorpgs-12e41c4cb9b

- History of Chinese RPGs: https://felipepepe.medium.com/before-genshin-impact-a-brief-history-of-chinese-rpgs-bc962fc29908

- History of Korean RPGs: https://felipepepe.medium.com/rpgs-...-package-online-and-mobile-games-759478508a1c

There's also a bunch of French-only RPGs from the 80s to explore, but the CRPG Addict already reviewed most of them, so there's probably not much I can add there.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,310
Location
Terra da Garoa
doesn't depend on the Gamasutra editor liking my article or not.
Please reveal some tasty drama behind the scenes. You said something bad about a corporation and a corporate cocksucker got upset?
No, I don't mean it that way. Gamasutra is almost entirely made of content done by bloggers, but an editor choses which ones are "experts" and which ones are "members", which one appear on the top of the front page as "Featured post" and which ones won't even appear on the front page, and so on. Also, they sometimes take several days to approve a post, and you don't have access to metrics to see how things are going, where clicks come from, etc...

The advantage of publishing there is that their front page had a lot of traffic, but I feel like it went down A LOT in the last years. No point in submitting myself to the whims of editors if tweeting about it gets more views.

Lastly, it really wasn't the place for the kind of articles I'm doing. Gamasutra is basically video game LinkedIn, I love the post-mortems there but 95% of their content nowadays is people going "Here's how I'm very skillful, smart and successful, please hire me / publish my indie game". And medium's layout is more flexible and better for posts full of images like I do.
 

Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Messages
5,737
Location
Perched on a tree
There's also a bunch of French-only RPGs from the 80s to explore, but the CRPG Addict already reviewed most of them, so there's probably not much I can add there.

A list would be nice, at least, i don't think i ever heard of any french only cRPG from the 80s and i don't feel like reading, let alone digging, crpg addict articles.
 

Grauken

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
13,173
There's also a bunch of French-only RPGs from the 80s to explore, but the CRPG Addict already reviewed most of them, so there's probably not much I can add there.

A list would be nice, at least, i don't think i ever heard of any french only cRPG from the 80s and i don't feel like reading, let alone digging, crpg addict articles.


Even if you won't read the articles, check out the pictures. From what I gathered, they are mostly weird with terrible GUIs and not really worth playing (though that's true for many French games, not just RPGs)


Tyrann (1984)
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2016/01/tyrann-won-with-final-rating.html

Mandragore (1985)
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2016/04/game-221-mandragore-1985.html

Les Templiers d'Orven (1986)
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2017/03/game-245-les-templiers-dorven-1986.html

Tera: La Cité des Crânes (1986)
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2017/03/tera-won-with-summary-and-rating.html

Fer & Flamme (1986)
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2016/12/game-238-fer-flamme-1986.html
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2017/01/fer-flamme-enigme-ennui.html

L'Anneau de Zengara (1987)
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2017/05/game-249-lanneau-de-zengara-1987.html

Inquisitor: Shade of Swords (1987)
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2017/09/inquisitor-shade-of-swords-won-with.html

Karma (1987)
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2017/10/game-264-karma-1987.html

Le Maître des Âmes (1987)
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2017/11/revisiting-le-maitre-des-ames-1991.html

Le Maître Absolu (1989)
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2018/12/game-310-le-maitre-absolu-1989.html

Ishar: Legend of the Fortress (1992)
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2020/03/ishar-legend-of-fortress-won-with.html
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,310
Location
Terra da Garoa
Grauken also these:

Oméga: Planète Invisible (1985)
https://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2020/10/game-386-omega-planete-invisible-1987.html
https://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2020/11/omega-planete-invisible-won-with.html

Muryaden (1989)
http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2020/05/game-365-muryaden-1989.html

Saga (1990)
https://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2014/10/game-167-saga-1990.html

And there's even more stuff he didn't cover, like L'Antre de la Peur (1984), Le Fer d'Amnukor (1986), Le Labyrinthe d'Orthophus (1989), Zone (1988) and Phalsberg (1987). I doubt any of them can be considered a classic - or even a good game - but it's crazy how many RPGs the French were making in the late 80s... and then basically stopped and only did Darkstone and EYE: Divine Cybermany.
 
Last edited:

Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Messages
5,737
Location
Perched on a tree
And there's even more stuff he didn't cover, like L'Antre de la Peur (1984), Le Fer d'Amnukor (1986), Le Labyrinthe d'Orthophus (1989), Zone (1988) and Phalsberg (1987). I doubt any of them can be considered a classic - or even a good game - but it's crazy how many RPGs the French were making in the late 80s... and then basically stopped and only did Darkstone and EYE: Divine Cybermany.

It finally brought us KotC and KotC 2 so it was all worth it.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom