Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Fallout Fallout 4 Thread

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,628
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
This argument about whether Bethesda counts as "true AAA" is kind of cringe, but very much agree with the assessment that they were a poorly run publisher.
 

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,625
Oblivion was made by a team of around 70 people. It was not even kind of what would be considered a AAA title unless you’re just using AAA as some stupid buzzword to mean every game released by a major publisher that was sold for the average retail price...which is kind of how some people seem to use it. It’s stupid to call Oblivion a AAA title when it’s coming out alongside games like Grand Theft Auto 4 and Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. Nobody would say a movie that cost $100 million and a movie that cost $10 million fall into the same budgetary umbrella. You wouldn’t even say a $40 million or $50 million thing fell under the same budgetary umbrella as something that cost $10 million. Bethesda was not making big budget games until maybe Starfield. Fallout 4 had a team of around 100 people, Assassion’s Creed games at the same time had teams around 1,000 people. These two things do not occupy the same space.
That's irrelevant, it makes no difference to me, as the consumer, whether you spend €5 million or €50 million if the end product looks like it offers that €50 million experience, a comparable scope and level of finish. As consumers, we're only interested in the development budget because it typically indicates the scope of the product on offer, but it's the latter that interests us, not the former in and of itself.

Kingdom Come: Deliverance was made for something like €15-20 million, by that definition is should be a "AA" title, and yet I see absolutely nothing in terms of what it offers that makes it a "budget" title compared to, I dunno, Skyrim or Deus Ex: Human Revolution. If Warhorse managed to achieve a similar grade of experience for a fraction of the budget, all the better for them. Similarly, despite Larian's multiple studios around the world, you can be damned certain they spent a lot less making Baldur's Gate 3 than BioWare do on whatever they crap out of late, but that didn't translate to a compromise in the experience (well, the interfaces are atrocious, but that's not a budgeting issue) and indeed it's sold as a "full price" AAA game.

In reality, "AAA" is first and foremost a price segment classification which serves marketing purposes, same way that film has the term "blockbuster", they both indicate the highest tier of entertainment in their respective mediums (and movies have their own exceptions, see District 9's $30 million budget). In normal circumstances, this should correlate to production budgets and competing products in the genre, the scope of the investment scales with what you can ask at the till, though sometimes you have exceptional circumstances, either for the better (Kingdom Come: Deliverance punching above its weight) or for the worse (No Man's Sky's devs lying through their fucking teeth). Bethesda had a somewhat similar thing going, their specialised tools and expertise allowing them to keep a relatively lower headcount while their titles, at least since Oblivion, were absolutely "blockbusters" - hell, Fallout 4, for example "broke Grand Theft Auto V's record for having the most concurrent online players in a Steam game not developed by Valve."

A flagship Bethesda release is most certainly an "event" in videogaming and even Starfield's reception proves that - when was the last time people spent three months raging over an Assassin's Creed being shit?
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
4,633
Oblivion was made by a team of around 70 people. It was not even kind of what would be considered a AAA title unless you’re just using AAA as some stupid buzzword to mean every game released by a major publisher that was sold for the average retail price...which is kind of how some people seem to use it. It’s stupid to call Oblivion a AAA title when it’s coming out alongside games like Grand Theft Auto 4 and Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. Nobody would say a movie that cost $100 million and a movie that cost $10 million fall into the same budgetary umbrella. You wouldn’t even say a $40 million or $50 million thing fell under the same budgetary umbrella as something that cost $10 million. Bethesda was not making big budget games until maybe Starfield. Fallout 4 had a team of around 100 people, Assassion’s Creed games at the same time had teams around 1,000 people. These two things do not occupy the same space.
That's irrelevant, it makes no difference to me, as the consumer, whether you spend €5 million or €50 million if the end product looks like it offers that €50 million experience, a comparable scope and level of finish. As consumers, we're only interested in the development budget because it typically indicates the scope of the product on offer, but it's the latter that interests us, not the former in and of itself.

Kingdom Come: Deliverance was made for something like €15-20 million, by that definition is should be a "AA" title, and yet I see absolutely nothing in terms of what it offers that makes it a "budget" title compared to, I dunno, Skyrim or Deus Ex: Human Revolution. If Warhorse managed to achieve a similar grade of experience for a fraction of the budget, all the better for them. Similarly, despite Larian's multiple studios around the world, you can be damned certain they spent a lot less making Baldur's Gate 3 than BioWare do on whatever they crap out of late, but that didn't translate to a compromise in the experience (well, the interfaces are atrocious, but that's not a budgeting issue) and indeed it's sold as a "full price" AAA game.

In reality, "AAA" is first and foremost a price segment classification which serves marketing purposes, same way that film has the term "blockbuster", they both indicate the highest tier of entertainment in their respective mediums (and movies have their own exceptions, see District 9's $30 million budget). In normal circumstances, this should correlate to production budgets and competing products in the genre, the scope of the investment scales with what you can ask at the till, though sometimes you have exceptional circumstances, either for the better (Kingdom Come: Deliverance punching above its weight) or for the worse (No Man's Sky's devs lying through their fucking teeth). Bethesda had a somewhat similar thing going, their specialised tools and expertise allowing them to keep a relatively lower headcount while their titles, at least since Oblivion, were absolutely "blockbusters" - hell, Fallout 4, for example "broke Grand Theft Auto V's record for having the most concurrent online players in a Steam game not developed by Valve."

A flagship Bethesda release is most certainly an "event" in videogaming and even Starfield's reception proves that - when was the last time people spent three months raging over an Assassin's Creed being shit?

What the fuck are you even going on about?

I say Bethesda games ARE NOT big budget titles, and I’m pointing out that Fallout 4 and Skyrim had developed teams of around 100 people and you just bring up Kingdom Come Deliverance like I was making the total opposite point. Looking at it, it seems that KCD at peak development may have had a larger team working on it that Skyrim.

Outside of the Star Wars MMORPG, and maybe that Anthem game, I’m not sure BioWare spends way more on their games than Larian did. And that’s not even to say Larian spent a ton. But BioWare don’t make huge big budget games. You might think they would because BioWare is a “big” known developer. But there were those tweets from some former Dead Space developer a number of years ago, and I think he brings up Mass Effect 2’s budget as being something like $40 million. It outperformed the bigger budget Dead Space 2... which is also why Dead Space 3 was like it was. They may have gotten a bump in budget for ME3 since the second game did well, but I doubt the other games got budgets bigger than that. EA probably wasn’t jumping to dump $40 million or more into a third Dragon Age game. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Andromeda cost the same or less than ME2 despite the seven years between them.

Why bring up Fallout 4’s 2015 Steam charts in relation to GTA5? The wiki page has more exact numbers. Fallout 4 shipped 12 million units in 24 hours, and then two years later Peter Hines said it sold better than Skyrim in the same amount of time without giving an exact number...so over 20 million it seems. But not so much over 20 million to give an exact number. The wiki page for GTA5 says Take-Two shipped 29 million in the first six weeks, and by the end of its second calendar year out was at 45 million. That Fallout 4 Steam chart record has been beat by a number of games, including Capcom Arcade Stadium.

I also did not say Bethesda’s games don’t sell well. I think I’ve even said they do sell well.

I still randomly come across new Youtube videos of people complaining about Assassin's Creed Valhalla from three years ago.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,777

Only they weren’t big stuff. Their games sold well, but these games weren’t huge on the production side of things for their time. And they especially weren’t before Oblivion. Morrowind was around 40 people and was made by a Bethesda on the verge of going under. The original 1996 Resident Evil had a team almost double the size of Morrowind. The first Devil May Cry game has double the staff size of Morrowind. About as many people worked on the original 1991 Street Fighter 2 as worked on Morrowind.

Those credits also list every role a single voice actor does as its own unique credit for that count. Although it’s fairly easy to find Todd or someone from Bethesda saying: Fallout 4 had a development team of a little over 100 people. Which was not a huge team for a game coming out in 2015.

For a comparison, Final Fantasy 13 comes out in 2009 and had 200 people working on it at its peak. The game had more artist on the team than Fallout 4 had people developing Fallout 4.
You're using some really weird metrics and comparisons and I'm not gonna even venture into how reliable the data you're using is, since the number of people working on resident evil is as irrelevant as you can get. Since Daggerfall, their games share most of these characteristics: huge scope which was completely outside of reach for vast majority of other titles, extensive media coverage with multiple awards won and strong presence on different events, extensive marketing which was very noticeable even in my neck of the woods (that already at a time when 90%+ games had zero marketing), huge numbers of units moved and accordingly large communities, usage of famous actors, recognition outside of gaming community, push for multiplatform angle with great success and so on. I'm not sure on what planet do you need to live in to look at crpg/gaming landscape at a time of daggerfall's/morrowind's/oblivion's release and not think they were as big as you can possibly be.
 

Kev Inkline

(devious)
Patron
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
5,480
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I read that for Skyrim it was 85 millions for development, 15 for marketing.
Completely unrealistic ratio, to put it mildly.
Yeah, that makes it look like they didn't do much marketing at all besides game journos and conventions for Skyrim at the beggining.
With F4 they upped their marketing game by the order of the magnitude.


Typical indie studio marketing approach. A real AAA studio would've used Leno or Letterman instead, right?
:neveraskedforthis:
 

ropetight

Savant
Joined
Dec 9, 2018
Messages
1,731
Location
Lower Wolffuckery
I read that for Skyrim it was 85 millions for development, 15 for marketing.
Completely unrealistic ratio, to put it mildly.
Yeah, that makes it look like they didn't do much marketing at all besides game journos and conventions for Skyrim at the beggining.
With F4 they upped their marketing game by the order of the magnitude.


Typical indie studio marketing approach. A real AAA studio would've used Leno or Letterman instead, right?
:neveraskedforthis:

Then Leno is their go-to guy, since he outfoxed both Letterman and O'Brien out of their shows.


And he has nasty habit of collecting expensive cars, so he won't turn down average AAA studio.
 

Late Bloomer

Scholar
Joined
Apr 7, 2022
Messages
3,946
Jay_Leno_2019_crop.jpg
 

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,625
What the fuck are you even going on about?
You said that "Bethesda doesn't make AAA games" based on their relatively smaller headcount and budgets. I disagreed because "AAA" is just videogaming's equivalent of the film industry's top-tier "blockbuster" market classification (which often but not always correlates directly to staffing) and that Bethesda's releases have certainly made that kind of splash.
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,702
avalanche makes AA games, not that it can't look better than AAA:


.

And why make a car game instead of silver shroud you can also play as ordinary character?

Who cares about avalanche n+1 deferred looking rendering engine that did fuck all with its realtime focus while John's RAGE has unmatched vista and distance rendering? Give me RAGE 1 with prerender weather anytime over "alsoran" deferred engine games.

Homefront 2 has prerender and it was obviously worth it . Will be the same on mobile, realtime AAA was just corner cutting.

(...)You’re planning on contracting a studio that makes open world sandbox games to do a new title. Do you have them make a follow-up to the older thing that sold terribly and isn’t well remembered by the few people that even played it, or do you have the same studio make some open world sandbox action game in the setting that’s sold over ten million copies for each of the three games you’ve released in that series so far? I’d say the smart money would be on Avalanche and id making a Fallout: Something. But Bethesda is apparently run by morons, so they had them make Rage 2.
(...)


Thing is realtime graphics and sandbox are maybe good match on a first sight but it's not really. The more you look it's less so.
AA also kinda rules out sandbox.
You don't have meaningful weather to act as sandbox feature-set. You don't even have meaningful transition from interior to exterior let alone weather. Realtime graphics is usually one thing: shit and barely runs.

Here are some of my posts highlighting AA+A sandbox issues:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/why-arent-there-more-skyrim-clones.141645/post-8747585
 
Last edited:

tritosine2k

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,702
You don't have meaningful weather to act as sandbox feature-set.

Well it's interesting thought experiment what Far Harbor would be when you don't want to accept certain compromise because realtime.

Note it's a popular "global illumination" "optimization" ( HACK) to omit fog (participating media).
Also note that's not a "thing" in movie quality cgi.
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
11,974
Location
Flowery Land
Played F4 for first time to get a feel for vanilla game before I mod it into something else entirely.

Everyone (rightfully) complains about the fixed voiced protag, but I don't see anyone mention how utterly schizophrenic they are during mandatory dialog. Player character goes from paniced and freaked out at state of Vault 111 to suddenly admiring a piece of loot even though they have no idea what (if anything) it does, and back again before suddenly abandoning a unwillingness to touch corpses to rip off a dead man's arm and magically know how to work the complicated device they just looted.

I did like the first raider firefight I got into.

Any recommendations besides
SE
Unofficial Patch
FallUI
Extended Dialog Interface
Horizon
? What's the best no PC voice mod now?

Also any guides on how to get SE+mod organizer working on Linux?
 
Last edited:

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,625
Any recommendations besides
A couple looks & feel-wise:
- Desperados Overhaul will make the game look like Fallout. Just keep in mind it'll probably make most custom settlement mods incompatible due to previs;
- any of the STALKER soundtrack mods to trick your brain with pleasant associations;
- Immersive HUD will let you look at the game that looks like Fallout and disable that stupid stealth indicator;

Gameplay-wise, I dunno what Horizon does, but my top suggestions would be:
- play in Survival but use a mod to configure it to your liking, the defaults are batcrap, my pick was Unlimited Survival Mode;
- I'd started toying with the Level Cap mod, though I didn't get too far. Anyway, set it to around 35 and suddenly the game has builds, almost like an RPG! You'd be locking yourself out of some top perks, but most gear should be on the drop lists by that point;
- No Combat Music: coupled with Immersive HUD, you might actually have an enemy get the drop on you, who knows.

And a couple of nice tweaks:
- Get Out Of My Face (Push Away Companions and NPCs): helpful in a (literally) tight spot and, more importantly, satisfying to use!
- QuickTrade lets you skip dialogue (and animations) with merchants when you don't feel like having the same exchange for the hundredth time;
- Bullet Counted Reload: in Bethesdaland, you load five bullets into a lever-action rifle, fire two, then load five more... this lets you leave Bethesdaland;
- Classic Holstered Weapons System isn't a big deal if you don't spend a lot of time in 3rd person, but when you do, it's nice not to have to pull a machinegun out of your ass.

Dunno about MO on Linux, but if you are using MO, you might wanna take advantage of its profile features and make a separate, encapsulated copy of the game. Todd's coming for your mods. There's only three things certain in life - death, taxes, and Todd automatically updating the shit out of your decade-old games.
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
11,974
Location
Flowery Land
This guide seems to work for getting running on Linux. Only the slightest bit more effort than Windows would be (install needs you to cd to directory and run a simple command which launches GUI).

Edit: Is there a key command in MO2 to bring a mod up/down one slot? Dragging and dropping mostly works, but I have to right click to get mods to release from mouse.

Edit:
Any idea how to get xedit working on Linux?

Suggestions for weapon mods with Horizon? Currently
Bundle of Tape (mostly for Varmint Rifle)
Service Rifle
Grease Gun SMG
9mm Pistol (Browning Hi-Power) Redux
Riot Shotgun (Fallout 4 Edition)
Glock 86
LAER
Caravan Shotgun

Vanilla weapon replacers:
Thompson SMG Replacer
Nina's Proper Pipe Guns Replacer
(Any 10mm, Combat Rifle, Assault Rifle or Combat Shotgun replacements that are Horizon compatible welcome)

Edit:

After playing with it for a few dozen hours, I can tell you Horizon is crap. It does one thing, rebalance combat/weapons/armor, really well but suffers from an intense case of modder megolomania.

Even the combat suffers from your character getting a BAC of 0.5 anytime you try to aim down a weapon with a scope (and only if it has a scope). This isn't even a choice to force closer encounter distances either, as a scoped rifle still has VATS will have an 80+% chance for long distance head shot. Time delayed bandages and doctor skill instead of just stimpack spam is great, but this is one of the mod's many instances of its overcomplicated rules only applying to you: The only bandages that exist are those made by the player, those stocked in super low quantities at few vendors, and some randomly spawned in first aid boxes. You can kill hundreds of thugs and none of them have even rudimentary first aid kits to find forcing you to cut up their clothes, hope you find enough soap (itself super rare), and hike off to a crafting bench. Keep in mind Horizon expects you'll be using 5-10+ bandages items to recover your health.

Merchants still suffer from how there's still only two+near mutually exclusive faction HQs worth of civilization in the entire game world, all of which are concentrated in the center east of the map, supplemented by a few wandering traders and NPCs who randomly stock stuff. Horizon just compounds this problem with a trading skill that aside from influncing prices (OK) just arbitrarily locks off vendor inventory (again, not documented anywhere) if it's not super high (skills are effectively capped if you aren't level 15+). Now everything is rare not because it's actually scarce, but because merchants decide their best customer with thousands of caps to spare doesn't deserve to buy from them at any price. This even applies to vendors who are parts of quests and are explicitly super grateful to you, or are struggling to get any customers. This isn't even unlocking unique items for sale, it's literally just vendors force a 3 per customer rule if you aren't skilled enough in trade.

The settlements are still pointless except for a few resources that aren't common enough in the world (adhesive, pure water, maybe clean food) can be generated by them. You still just build a few things and get the resources you need then forget about settlements, except now instead of a few steps to generate those resources there's twelve, a bunch more unique resources (including freshly drilled crude oil for some reason) and a fucking tech tree to deal with. None of this makes the game fun, just even more tedious.

The most blatant case of changes because changes is that it overwrites the body model. It does nothing, it's not documented as being changed in mod description. There's absolutely zero benefit to changing this. Changing this makes it incompatible with the most popular mods without another mod to overwrite it. Why was this changed? Who knows!

Mod author is Civil War Overhaul tier nutcase. Incredibly hostile to anything but cocksucking.
 
Last edited:

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,807
Beth should switch over to making survival/crafting systems and a large world map and letting modders fill in the quests and storylines like the RPG Maker series. This would also sidestep technical limitations for consoles and all the obvious censorship that the government forced into their games (like, for instance, Oblivion not having levitation and Starfield not having FUCKING ALIENS).

Nobody wants to buy Fallout 4, but if the "Fallout 4 Creation Kit" were the actual game and the main quest was just a tech demo like Shadowrun Returns, it would have gone over better. Making the Creation Kit more like Halo's Forge Mode should have been the focus, not giving the protagonists voice acting. The settlement system and AI improvements would be trivially easy to refine into a more systems-based game like Dwarf Fortress.
 

EtcEtcEtc

Savant
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
417
Beth should switch over to making survival/crafting systems and a large world map and letting modders fill in the quests and storylines like the RPG Maker series. This would also sidestep technical limitations for consoles and all the obvious censorship that the government forced into their games (like, for instance, Oblivion not having levitation and Starfield not having FUCKING ALIENS).

Nobody wants to buy Fallout 4, but if the "Fallout 4 Creation Kit" were the actual game and the main quest was just a tech demo like Shadowrun Returns, it would have gone over better. Making the Creation Kit more like Halo's Forge Mode should have been the focus, not giving the protagonists voice acting. The settlement system and AI improvements would be trivially easy to refine into a more systems-based game like Dwarf Fortress.
This is a terrible idea. Have you played modders quests for 3, NV, and 4?
 

CthuluIsSpy

Arcane
Joined
Dec 26, 2014
Messages
8,687
Location
On the internet, writing shit posts.
Enclave Remnants

Enclave Remnants brings the Pre-War cabal, The Enclave, into the Fallout 4 storyline. In this new quest, “Echoes of the Past,” can you stop The Enclave from spreading their dangerous ideology and gaining a foothold in the Commonwealth?

Along with workshop items and the Enclave Colonel uniform, we are including the following previously released Creation Club content:

  • Enclave Weapon Skins
  • Enclave Armor Skins
  • Tesla Cannon
  • Hellfire Power Armor
  • X-02 Power Armor
  • Heavy Incinerator
Wow, Beth is really trying to milk the Enclave. I guess they saw the fan demand.
Also
>"Stop the Enclave from spreading and gaining a foothold in the commonwealth"
Now why would I do that, especially in Fallout 4?
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
5,957
Pathfinder: Wrath
And all modders rejoice

Said no one ever

This is probably to inject the paid mod system like they have in Skyrim
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom