Fallout 3 as Deus Ex? Or Doom RPG (mobile game)?

[Elwro]

I'm playing that Doom Roguelike. I'm assuming English isn't this guy's first language.

Well, it isn't, but I think the game manages to recreate the Doom "feel" in a nice new way :D

 

[Section8]

Doom Roguelike is rough as guts, it's supposed to be bloody hard, and so it's very rewarding when you get through a few levels. Try experimenting with different feats, some are better to get early on than others.

 

[Drakron]

If they didn't care about the old fans, wouldn't they have invented a new post-apocalyptic world? I doubt that's copyrighted.
Wouldn't non-Fallout-fans be as interested in Nuclearo: Teh Apocalypse as they would be in Fallout 3?

Name recognition.

Bethsoft Fallout is not going to be a Fallout game, things changed too much in both player mentality (RT vs TB and IV vs FPV) and how the market works (Fallout 2 would be a AO game if released today) for Fallout games being done.

Of course they are going after the old fans with the same BS of "trust us" and "we loved Fallout" trying to make those fans buy the game but they are going after the current market and that means a toned down Fallout (due to ratings), a real time game (because "Turn Base sucks") in a FPV (because "isometric sucks").

 

[kingcomrade]

That's what I was thinking. Sorta like the Doom movie before people started complaining. No demons, not on Mars? Why are you calling it Doom?
Even now, I just saw the movie recently. It doesn't really take place on Mars. They just mention it once, then have someone look out a window once, later. Much less the original Phobos. Having a teleporter back to earth around kinda makes the whole "trapped on a moon base with a bunch of demons" feeling disappear.

 

[Brillo]

They could set it in a post-nuke city (or similar centralized location) rather than having a wasteland map. A realistically-scaled city could be a tremendous amount of locations.

That would be really cool.

Not for Fallout, of course, but it would be cool for a different IP.

Think it'd be just fine for Fallout. As long as it's realisticly scaled and set in a (previously) major metropolitan area, you could have just as many separate locations and the same kind of wastelands between them as fallout did. It's just be blocks and blocks of wreckage rather than miles and miles of brown desert.

Imagine trecking from a small 'village' located in one of the few still standing skyscrapers through miles of wreckage, past rows of nuked suburban houses and finally to some military base on the outskirts of town. Realisticly scaled, on foot, and past assorted mutants/wild animals/bandits (or whatever) and I think it'd give the same sense of scale and the numerous separate locations you got in the first two games.

The towns in FO 1 & 2 were seriously sparse, I'd love to see one fleshed out and scaled up in a realistic way. I don't see anything there that would be somehow contrary to the look, feel, or play of the originals.

Hell, Bethesda could set something like that right near where their offices- in and around Washington DC. Who wouldn't want to wander around a nuked DC for the next game?

 

[kingcomrade]

You know what I'm tired of in apoc movies? The Statues of Liberty getting blown up in various ways. You know why? First of all, we've seen it a million times. Secondly, it always blows up into chunks. People, THE STATUE IS MADE OF METAL, NOT ROCK.
Seeing monuments get blown up is so overdone it's boring. So I hope they don't do DC. You know what DC is? It's a bunch of national monuments surrounded by ugly slums.

I do like the idea of a major burnt out city, but it is a little restrictive in the locales you can have. They'd have to add in a bunch of extra locations. If they do this, I hope it's not New York or DC, those cities suck. Make it Dallas or something.

Also, we'd lose our beloved Outdoorsman skill.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Aren't phase-based and orders-during-pause mutually exclusive?

 

[Lumpy]

If they didn't care about the old fans, wouldn't they have invented a new post-apocalyptic world? I doubt that's copyrighted.
Wouldn't non-Fallout-fans be as interested in Nuclearo: Teh Apocalypse as they would be in Fallout 3?

Name recognition.

Bethsoft Fallout is not going to be a Fallout game, things changed too much in both player mentality (RT vs TB and IV vs FPV) and how the market works (Fallout 2 would be a AO game if released today) for Fallout games being done.

Of course they are going after the old fans with the same BS of "trust us" and "we loved Fallout" trying to make those fans buy the game but they are going after the current market and that means a toned down Fallout (due to ratings), a real time game (because "Turn Base sucks") in a FPV (because "isometric sucks").

Name recognition by whom?

 

[kingcomrade]

By people who hear "Fallout 3" and look around and find sites where people worship Fallout and thus get excited. It isn't guaranteed that they will also get the message by forums like this that it will not actually be a Fallout game.

 

[Lumpy]

By people who hear "Fallout 3" and look around and find sites where people worship Fallout and thus get excited. It isn't guaranteed that they will also get the message by forums like this that it will not actually be a Fallout game.

But how about the people who will look around and find sites saying that Fallout 3 is a disappointment, compared to Fallout 2? They might still buy Nuclearo, but not Fallout 3.

 

[kingcomrade]

They'll get cancer and die.

 

[Lumpy]

They'll get cancer and die.

Right...

 

[yipsl]

I care little for a game that is "not Fallout, but it could be enjoyable" as there are tons of that sort around already.

I'd rather have a game like Fallout that doesn't bear the name than the opposite.

Too much store is put in names in a license. Since Dark Messiah of Might and Magic won't be Might and Magic X (ie not a party based RPG), but will be Half Life Too, I won't get it at full price.

Ideally, Bethsoft should consider making the game closer to the originals in interface. They did fantasy strategy games that were isometric based on the XCOM engine, so they don't have to make Fallout 3 TES with guns.

Hasn't Brian Fargo acquired the license to Wasteland? He didn't exactly redo The Bard's Tale, but the game was still enjoyable. Maybe he'll do better by Wasteland. I played the original Bard's Tales and Wasteland back in my Commodore 128 days. Wasteland was more fun then I originally expected.

The name is that sacred eh?

Well, people want to defend what they consider to be their favorite games, and what they consider to be one of the greatest games (roleplaying games, in this case) of all time. To turn Fallout into a FPS would be horrible. It wouldn't be the same Californian post-apocalyptic universe we've all grown to know and love.

Think about it this way. I take it you like the Elder Scrolls series. Anyways, imagine that Bethesda went out of business and sold the Elder Scrolls license to Obsidian. Now, imagine if Obsidian turned around and make The Elder Scrolls V into a Final Fantasy Tactics type game with the morality system from Knights of the Old Republic. Sure, it could be one helluva game, but it wouldn't be the same Elder Scrolls, and you would probably feel cheated for having your favorite series turned into this whole other monster.

That's a good way of explaining it. I missed the Fallout games, but hate what Ubisoft is doing to Might and Magic. They're doing HOMM well, but nothing along the lines of a classic Might and Magic RPG. That series is my second favorite after The Elder Scrolls.

There's enough room for more post apocalyptic games, the Poles are doing several, I've heard. There's just no reason to make a first person RPG version of Fallout. Perhaps the classic games will only survive in mobile phone remakes? That is until mobile phone tech gradually morphs into the equal of today's desktops.

The qeustion though is, would you risk all the bad reviews they would undoubtedly get if they deviated too far from the originals qualities. Don't forget that Fallout is every RPG geek's pet. I thinke they will at least try to appeal to both "old fans" and new customers, just as they do with TES. Wether that is possible with the maniacs that call themselves Fallout fans I highly doubt. Certainly not with anyone who set foot in NMA, and not with most of you guys. But there are more Fallout fans than that...

So, tell me. Aside from a few old kvetchers like myself, who's out there dissing Dark Messiah of Might and Magic? It's generally getting very good previews and Valve is pushing it too, and they didn't even make it. I believe that will hold true for Fallout 3 from Bethsoft, no matter how much it deviates from the original in style and interface.

How far from the party based, first person, hybrid real time/ turn based combat with traditional stats RPG feel of Might and Magic VI and VII is a Source driven "Half Life Too" with 16 levels and up to 64 players online? Very far, i'd say.

Compare those 16 levels when the game goes gold to the vast continent in Might and Magic VI, where you could travel to areas you could not survive. I'd often just level up by hanging with my party's backs to the invisible wall, fighting monsters and then retreating. When I could handle the monsters and move on, then there was plenty of roleplaying, plenty of towns and NPCs to talk to and hire, and plenty of quests and dungeons.

Reviewers don't care about how true a new game is to the earlier games in the series, or even who owns the license. All they care about is how fun the game is for the demographic they write for. Most game magazines write for high school and college age kids, not the older gamer demographic.

While there were FPS games that used the M&M license with 3DO and New World Computing's consent, they weren't seen as Might and Magic by fans and tanked. Now, Ubisoft is going for a different market with an old RPG franchise name. They aren't calling it an RPG, but one guy over at the Elder Scrolls forum is claiming up and down that Dark Messiah is as much an action RPG as Oblivion. He's nuts, because Oblivion hasn't sunk that far into the FPS morass.

The whole thing with Fallout 3 as TES with guns is that, while it doesn't sink to the FPS morass either, it's too far from the subgenre of RPG represented by Fallout to be genuine. Yet the hype will call it a worthy successor to Fallout. They shouldn't have wasted money on the license and just done a nice first person RPG post apocalyptic game that we'd all see as a homage to Fallout.

 

[Atrokkus]

I like the idea of events taking place in some other part of the world. Not that I dislike USA: I enjoyed every bit of cultural background of FO1/2, but I just want some new backdrop for a change, some new social and cultural conflicts and alliances brought about. Europe, for instance.

Or.. Africa! One big Temple of Trials-kind of gameworld! ^)

 

[crpgnut]

Fallout needs to stay in the USA. Let someone from Europe create a good post-apoc game for the Europeans. Why? It's hard for someone from a different continent to nail the cultural references with any degree of accuracy.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

The qeustion though is, would you risk all the bad reviews they would undoubtedly get if they deviated too far from the originals qualities. Don't forget that Fallout is every RPG geek's pet. I thinke they will at least try to appeal to both "old fans" and new customers, just as they do with TES. Wether that is possible with the maniacs that call themselves Fallout fans I highly doubt. Certainly not with anyone who set foot in NMA, and not with most of you guys. But there are more Fallout fans than that...

So, tell me. Aside from a few old kvetchers like myself, who's out there dissing Dark Messiah of Might and Magic? It's generally getting very good previews and Valve is pushing it too, and they didn't even make it. I believe that will hold true for Fallout 3 from Bethsoft, no matter how much it deviates from the original in style and interface.

How far from the party based, first person, hybrid real time/ turn based combat with traditional stats RPG feel of Might and Magic VI and VII is a Source driven "Half Life Too" with 16 levels and up to 64 players online? Very far, i'd say.

Compare those 16 levels when the game goes gold to the vast continent in Might and Magic VI, where you could travel to areas you could not survive. I'd often just level up by hanging with my party's backs to the invisible wall, fighting monsters and then retreating. When I could handle the monsters and move on, then there was plenty of roleplaying, plenty of towns and NPCs to talk to and hire, and plenty of quests and dungeons.

Reviewers don't care about how true a new game is to the earlier games in the series, or even who owns the license. All they care about is how fun the game is for the demographic they write for. Most game magazines write for high school and college age kids, not the older gamer demographic.

While there were FPS games that used the M&M license with 3DO and New World Computing's consent, they weren't seen as Might and Magic by fans and tanked. Now, Ubisoft is going for a different market with an old RPG franchise name. They aren't calling it an RPG, but one guy over at the Elder Scrolls forum is claiming up and down that Dark Messiah is as much an action RPG as Oblivion. He's nuts, because Oblivion hasn't sunk that far into the FPS morass.

The whole thing with Fallout 3 as TES with guns is that, while it doesn't sink to the FPS morass either, it's too far from the subgenre of RPG represented by Fallout to be genuine. Yet the hype will call it a worthy successor to Fallout. They shouldn't have wasted money on the license and just done a nice first person RPG post apocalyptic game that we'd all see as a homage to Fallout.

Hmm, Dark Messiah might be an interesting case. Unfortunately I don't know the M&M series, so I have to just take your word on how it deviates from the original series. You said yourself that previous attempts to make FPS version of Might and Magic tanked and so did the attempt with TES (Battlespire). They are obviously trying to do it right this time with truly stunning graphics and combat. But as you said yoursef, they are NOT claiming it will be an RPG, which I think is a bit different from what we expect Bethesda to do. Even the worst sceptics expect "Morrwind with guns", not "Fallout-spire"
Also I would expect that the case is a bit different with Fallout, because it really has its name from being the ultimate non-linear RPG, and I just assume that they will want to cash in on that aspect. So if I were on the design team I would want to make sure it really appeals to the role players, but try to make it look really good in addition to lure in the new player generation as well. Since Fallout is played with guns, the only alternative is to eally make it a FPS, and that would be neither Beths expertise, nor a smart move, because the competition is much too stiff, with much better established strong franchises in that segment.
So I really can't imagine that they will go the Messiah route with Fallout 3. But we wil have to wait and see...

 

[kingcomrade]

Fallout needs to stay in the USA. Let someone from Europe create a good post-apoc game for the Europeans. Why? It's hard for someone from a different continent to nail the cultural references with any degree of accuracy.

I don't really even want them to move to a different area of the US, though the California area is kinda exhausted for plot options, seeing as how something already happened there.

 

[yipsl]

Hmm, Dark Messiah might be an interesting case. Unfortunately I don't know the M&M series, so I have to just take your word on how it deviates from the original series. You said yourself that previous attempts to make FPS version of Might and Magic tanked and so did the attempt with TES (Battlespire). They are obviously trying to do it right this time with truly stunning graphics and combat. But as you said yoursef, they are NOT claiming it will be an RPG, which I think is a bit different from what we expect Bethesda to do. Even the worst sceptics expect "Morrwind with guns", not "Fallout-spire"
Also I would expect that the case is a bit different with Fallout, because it really has its name from being the ultimate non-linear RPG, and I just assume that they will want to cash in on that aspect. So if I were on the design team I would want to make sure it really appeals to the role players, but try to make it look really good in addition to lure in the new player generation as well. Since Fallout is played with guns, the only alternative is to eally make it a FPS, and that would be neither Beths expertise, nor a smart move, because the competition is much too stiff, with much better established strong franchises in that segment.
So I really can't imagine that they will go the Messiah route with Fallout 3. But we wil have to wait and see...

Too bad the people here seem to have missed out on Might and Magic. I played World of Xeen (Might and Magic IV and V combined) onwards and my wife redwoodtreesprite has Isles of Terra (Might and Magic III) for one of her old consoles, and I've watched her play it. Aside from TES and Might and Magic IV through IX, there's nothing that has provided a first person perspective in a vast world where you can go anywhere, take any quest and advance your character skills however you want.

Wizardy was first person, but a more linear world and Betrayal at Krondor was one of the best RPGs ever, but it was like experiencing a Feist novel first person. You could go to most of the areas in any chapter, but some areas were closed until the specific chapter opened them up.

The unique advantages of RPG first person is why I think many Might and Magic fans are also TES fans, and why fans of isometric RPGs like Fallout, Baldurs Gate, and Arcanum missed out on both series. Too often, isometric is associated with RPGs and first person with FPS.

The smaller group of RPG fans sees the ideal as first person exploration in an immersive world, experiencing the quests and story arc while taking in the sights and the other sees the RPG ideal as an isometric god view of a party or solo character in a rich storyline. Yet, both are RPGs because of the complexity of stats, skills and character roles and development.

The isometric RPGs I've liked were Ultima III through VII, Wasteland, Magic Candle 1 through 3, and the Realms of Arkania trilogy (especially Star Trail, it had the best plot twist/red herring of any game I've ever played). Overall, no other isometric view has appealed to me. If only the recent The Bard's Tale had been closer to the original and not a third person linear console. Maybe Brian Fargo will do better by Wasteland, that was isometric at least. I'd love to see a party based The Bard's Tale game with first person travel with a hybrid turn based/ real time combat system like Might and Magic VII.

 

[Section8]

I played Might and Magic VII to near completion, and wasn't really all that impressed. It did have some interesting points, like the followers, the "prestige classes", the good/evil choice and some solid RPG elements, but it also seemed to have more than its fair share of ludicrously overpowered monsters (that I'd work into a corner and then pick off by putting a weight on the attack key and walking away for half an hour) and I don't remember much in the way of solid narrative.

But, that said, I would also assume the older titles are much better. I might have to see if I can find Might and Magic IV somewhere.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Might and Magic VI was the best of the series. The Xeen games were close, too. Don't really bother with anything else.

 

[Rat Keeng]

I liked M&M VII, except the endgame, why do so many games fail at making a decent endgame? M&M VIII is terribly uninteresting, and M&M IX is just plain shit. It bugs me that i haven't been able to find M&M VI, I really want to play that one.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Your prayers are answered.
Include the first five games, too!

 

[ILLeGaL]

I personally (not instead of anybody) think that Bethesda doesn't have enough IQ to add ingame humor like Black Isle did.

They'll kill the Fallout series by Fallout 3. Those are bastards.

 

[kingcomrade]

Haha great comparison.
Fallout 2's humor was much contrived compared to the original's. If you don't think Beth can live up to Black Isle's humor, then you must be expecting something like "LOL HOOKERZ 'N DRUGZZ!" plus a pointless pop culture reference every other line of dialogue.
edit: er, that's describing Fallout 3, not 2, I would understand if you got confused.

 

[ILLeGaL]

There are reasons for I shouldn't expect more. I played Morrowind series, which greatly and inevitably sucks. I didn't see any humor except one or two, and except a gay wanted a kiss for his vote.