Factorio - a factory building game - now with Space Age expansion

[Mark.L.Joy]

If you don't look at any guides I think there's creativity the 1st time you do it, and this 1st time will last dozens of h, after that yes it's a matter of fitting in modules in efficient manner

 

[Kitchen Utensil]

There's just no way a suboptimal solution is more desirable than a more (or the most) efficient one in Factorio (or at least I don't see it). In SimCity4 for example, you can strive to make nice real-looking suburbs, slums, favelas etc., and eventhough none of them are most efficient, profitable or sustainable, it's still satisfying to achieve those goals. And there a countless more examples for something like that in SimCity4. There is no such thing in Factorio, instead in theory there is one optimal solution. That's unsatisfying.

 

[anvi]

Don't forget Cities Skylines and the Anno series. But really any building game is better than this piece of shit.

 

[Urthor]

Wtf is this shit, 7 hours of my life just imploded.

I didn't think they made video games this addictive holy christ. 20 years of gaming and this is absolutely something else.

 

[Jaedar]

There's just no way a suboptimal solution is more desirable than a more (or the most) efficient one in Factorio (or at least I don't see it). In SimCity4 for example, you can strive to make nice real-looking suburbs, slums, favelas etc., and eventhough none of them are most efficient, profitable or sustainable, it's still satisfying to achieve those goals. And there a countless more examples for something like that in SimCity4. There is no such thing in Factorio, instead in theory there is one optimal solution. That's unsatisfying.

Eh. I mean if it's not for you, it's not for you. For me it is deeply satisfying to make a solution. Return to it two hours later to see how I can make it faster with small tweaks, then return 5 hours after that, tear it all down and replace it with something better. Repeat.

I haven't played simcity, but I assume there is a theoretical best city layout there too. A lot of the fun in factorio is in looking at your design and realizing all the tiny mistakes you made and fixing them and the satisfaction of deleting bottlenecks.

It's "engineering" creativity, as opposed to artistic creativity.

 

[Kitchen Utensil]

The difference is, in SimCity4 the most efficient solution to some problem or task is not the most satisfying to build or look at. The most satisfying thing is to have an idea for a place or solution of some kind, a small rural town with agriculture, a suburb, a shopping district, financial highrise district, low cost housing district with high crime rate (or the same with low crime rate), a subway from A to B to C and D etc. and make it work. There are countless possibilities and viable solutions for every given idea or problem. Factorio has one optimal solution and you basically optimise until that solution is achieved and then start with slightly different parameters (new map). That's something I'd do at work, not in a game. So in short: yeah, I guess it's not for me.

 

[Jaedar]

Are there any puzzle like scenarios for Factorio, for example you are given a limited amount of power, space and resource tiles and you have to reach a certain output of item x with it ?

These are the scenarios

In order

• With limited space, use conveyor belts to move input items to output chests
• With limited space, produce certain amount of items within a timer.
  
• Launch a rocket/destroy all enemy bases before the attack waves destroy your base. Similar to freeplay but no research
  
• Freeplay but you also have to output some items into a bin by specific times
• It is pvp
• Pvp, whoever makes most items wins
• Sandbox
• No research, start with huge amounts of stuff, try and go fast

None of these are great imo, but your enjoyment may vary.

The difference is, in SimCity4 the most efficient solution to some problem or task is not the most satisfying to build or look at. The most satisfying thing is to have an idea for a place or solution of some kind, a small rural town with agriculture, a suburb, a shopping district, financial highrise district, low cost housing district with high crime rate (or the same with low crime rate), a subway from A to B to C and D etc. and make it work. There are countless possibilities and viable solutions for every given idea or problem. Factorio has one optimal solution and you basically optimise until that solution is achieved and then start with slightly different parameters (new map). That's something I'd do at work, not in a game. So in short: yeah, I guess it's not for me.

I could argue there is similar in factorio, you might set up a belt only base, only bots, more or less modules, low/high buffer rates.... The idea that there aren't multiple viable solutions in factorio is just wrong. The most optimal solution in factorio is also probably not the one that is prettiest... And of course there are some "free" optimization concerns, mainly power. If you sprawl your production you'll need less power, whereas hypercompact megamodule factories builds will require insane amounts of power for the same output.

But you have to be able to see beauty in some abstract industrial landscape of input/output devices, rather than an imaginary city. Sucks you don't like it I guess.

 

[Silly Germans]

Are there any puzzle like scenarios for Factorio, for example you are given a limited amount of power, space and resource tiles and you have to reach a certain output of item x with it ?

These are the scenarios

In order

• With limited space, use conveyor belts to move input items to output chests
• With limited space, produce certain amount of items within a timer.
  
• Launch a rocket/destroy all enemy bases before the attack waves destroy your base. Similar to freeplay but no research
  
• Freeplay but you also have to output some items into a bin by specific times
• It is pvp
• Pvp, whoever makes most items wins
• Sandbox
• No research, start with huge amounts of stuff, try and go fast

None of these are great imo, but your enjoyment may vary.

Thanks, i haven't played Factorio since 2 years ? or so. In only played it in freeplay in Lan mode with some buddies but have never felt the urge to play it alone.

Are there any puzzle like scenarios for Factorio, for example you are given a limited amount of power, space and resource tiles and you have to reach a certain output of item x with it ?

Quite a few, although it's been ages since I've fooled around with them.

If you want more structured puzzles, I'd suggest looking into Zachtronics games (not that I'm saying you should avoid Factorio, but structure, in my opinion, isn't its long suit).

The entire freeplay game is, in essence, a freeform logistics puzzle from beginning to end, one that grows more complex as it progresses.

I have played Factorio so i know what to expect and i think it should be possible to design interesting scenarios, i was mostly wondering whether some good ones exist or not.

 

[Blaine]

The idea that there aren't multiple viable solutions in factorio is just wrong. The most optimal solution in factorio is also probably not the one that is prettiest... And of course there are some "free" optimization concerns, mainly power. If you sprawl your production you'll need less power, whereas hypercompact megamodule factories builds will require insane amounts of power for the same output.

But you have to be able to see beauty in some abstract industrial landscape of input/output devices, rather than an imaginary city. Sucks you don't like it I guess.

He's not only mistaken that there's only one optimal solution to any given problem, but also that there are no possibilities for designs that are aesthetically pleasing. In fairness, you may need mods to make the most of aesthetic possibilities. I use Asphalt Roads, Dectorio, Nixie Tubes, Text Plates, and Factorissimo. With these, you can create road systems, parking lots/vehicle pools, designated walkways, armories, supply depots, ammo dumps, and even tasteful gardens, greenways, and reflecting pools.

I've lost/404'd a lot of my "aesthetic" screenshots over the years, but never this. This is my masterpiece, to date. Nuclear setups are a good example of both principles, and this (which is from ~2 years ago) incorporates no mods. There are countless approaches to designing nuclear power setups, and they can be aesthetically pleasing in wildly different ways.

There were many factors in creating this, but the principal three were ease of maintenance access, minimal heat loss, and symmetricality.

 

[Hellraiser]

So they spent the last 18+ months of development since 0.17 on what, bugfixes and general polish? I kind of get why they would want to polish out all the micro issues before pushing out 1.0, but there's barely any difference content wise, just the spidertron. It looks like a dud release to me. Did the Czechs find better projects to work on and set the development of this game aside or what?

The core mechanics are decent, but the problem from my side is replayability. There are only a few cases where there are real alternative ways of obtaining resources (energy and fuel being the most obvious) so you end up building mostly the same production chains on other playthroughs. You can't really skip resources on the way to the victory condition with the exception of uranium so progression does feel railroaded. There is just one type of threat/concern for the player (space bugs) other than producing enough stuff to keep the industrial machine going.

 

[Kitchen Utensil]

Yes, the game is optimisation shit.

Zero creativity, 100% frustration, because you'll never build the most efficient factory.
Complete shit.

 

[Silly Germans]

You can play it in lan coop multiplayer. Merging the work of different people is challenging enough to keep you busy. I've played it a bunch of times with 2-6 people and its pretty good. Although that was also 1-3 years ago versions 0.15-0.17 i think. I haven't touched the full release yet.

 

[Blaine]

...you'll never build the most efficient factory.

Of course not. Perfection is an unachievable ideal, except of course in the conversion efficiency of matter/antimatter annihilation.

You can play it in lan coop multiplayer. Merging the work of different people is challenging enough to keep you busy.

Yeah, it was great fun playing with one of my online pals.

 

[Kitchen Utensil]

Yeah, maybe I only hate the game because I'm a perfectionist.
But I do hate it. There's nothing creative you can do that'd be satisfying.
It's a nightmare this game.

 

[Blaine]

Yeah, maybe I only hate the game because I'm a perfectionist.
But I do hate it. There's nothing creative you can do that'd be satisfying.
It's a nightmare this game.

Like I always say: Factorio is a free-form logistics/optimization puzzle game. Some people mistake it for a sandbox survival game, a tower defense game, or in your case something that should scratch the same itch filled by creating good-looking districts in a city management sim. The game is none of these things.

You get to choose which puzzle to solve and when (to an extreme degree), and your solutions are allowed to range from caveman-tier to brilliant, but it is a puzzle game about solving logistical problems, preferably elegantly.

It scratches the engineer's itch yet can be enjoyed by non-engineers. To wit, the engineer's itch is to solve interconnected problems as they arise (or, better yet, anticipate and avoid them), iterate, test, and improve until the system in question (in this case, an assembler complex producing output) works more-or-less properly. As with real-life engineering endeavors such as automobiles, airplanes, etc., the end result, efficiency of design, hardiness and redundancy when something goes wrong (one chewed electric pole bringing down your entire grid is no good), modularity, et cetera can vary wildly depending on who engineered it.

 

[Hellraiser]

I think it is a stretch to call it a puzzle game. That would be like calling the Settlers 2 a puzzle game and on a basic level the games share a lot of gameplay elements such as moving goods from A to B and turning them into other goods/resources as part of a production chain.

Also there is a part of me that does not like the idea of calling it a puzzle due to the subjective lack of challenge in getting that rocket launched in freeplay ("the way it is meant to be played").

 

[Blaine]

Also there is a part of me that does not like the idea of calling it a puzzle due to the subjective lack of challenge in getting that rocket launched in freeplay ("the way it is meant to be played").

It becomes a puzzle when you set certain criteria for yourself. With enough persistence and enough time on their hands, probably anyone with a few brain cells to spare could kludge something together that would launch a rocket. One guy on the Factorio official forums mentioned playing for 800 hours before ever launching a rocket.

The "bar to launch a rocket" is set very low due to near-infinite space and time constraints, as well as the availability of online guides and resources. Bumbling just barely over the finish line and then collapsing in a pool of your own diarrhea is entirely possible, but streaking across and looking good doing it is far more satisfying. You can technically finish a golf course by hitting a ball thousands of times, but you'll feel frustrated and stupid. It's much better to at least learn the fundamentals and then try to do it well.

It's possible to beat this game in under eight hours, solo, which is why that achievement exists. That's most likely beyond my ability despite how many times I've finished the game (and beyond), because I can't think quickly enough at the required scale. Frankly, it's beyond the abilities of >99% of people.

"I need this, so I put this down... and now I put this down... and now this...." is an extremely painful way to play. If you think it through for a while and experiment, you can instead build a compact, modular setup with near-exact ratios, plonk it down, blueprint it, and have plenty of X and/or Y outputs forever—and additional modules if you need more, or you can tear them all down and move them elsewhere if restructuring or relocating. Cavemanning doesn't allow for this.

 

[Blaine]

Forgot I made this. It's one of my favorite blueprints, because I designed it entirely on my own; I almost certainly re-invented the wheel (heh), but it was very satisfying, because it was the result of my own understanding of the game's rail system. As rail traffic intensifies and the number of destinations increases, you must invent increasingly complex solutions in order to minimize travel time for all of the trains while avoiding collisions.

If anyone thinks that properly laying track and signals for efficiently moving large amounts of rail traffic is easy, you are quite simply wrong. This roundabout is no fancy frippery. It was an absolutely necessary step to reach the "launching multiple rockets per hour" stage at all.

At the moment, I no longer know exactly how my own fucking blueprint works, because it's been a long time since I've played. I do know that it allows trains moving either direction on any of the four parallel tracks to change direction at will using the roundabout, and without ever causing a jam.

 

[Twiglard]

After doing a main bus design (4 blue belts of iron, 7 copper added in ugly ways), I was able to output 250 science per minute. But now I need to start again due to mismanaging train rails. I found out that:

a) multiple trains going both ways on the same rail are never a good idea
b) trying to add stations directly onto the rail is just asking for trouble
c) also, the main bus layout just doesn't scale

At the same time, I learned how to do several things over this game -- compartmentalize every assembler complex; make some cool blueprints; prevent LTN train stations from confusing themselves.

Now I need to spend some time in creative mode to make a rail design that works well with my 100x100 blocks.

 

[anvi]

You don't 'need' to

 

[Blaine]

You don't 'need' to

You don't "need" to post on this forum, and you certainly don't "need" to continue your years-long campaign of monitoring and shitposting in this thread because Factorio isn't a tower defense game.

Do you know what I do when I don't like a game? I don't think about it at all. Oh, I might post once or twice in a relevant Codex thread to express my opinion when I first realize that I don't like it, and why—but I most assuredly won't squat on the thread for years, screeching and bitching about it for hundreds of posts.

No, this game is very important to you, which is why you've been here for years. You clearly recognize its depth, complexity, and quality, but are frustrated that it doesn't also contain the features that you prefer. Though you now pretend to believe that the entire game is shit, in actual fact, anyone can read your earliest posts in this thread indicating that you enjoyed the game but were upset that it didn't contain X and Y feature.

The kind of game you want actually exists, by the way: https://anuke.itch.io/mindustry

 

[anvi]

> because Factorio isn't a tower defense game.

I think it is more that it IS a tower defense game, just a really shitty one. And it is also shit as a logistics sandbox too. I played through it this year and launched the stupid rocket. Dumbest game ever. I tried Mindustry, it was ok. Maybe it is better by now. Someone will eventually get it right or a mod will.

 

[Jaedar]

I played through it this year and launched the stupid rocket. Dumbest game ever.

Plays the game a dozen hours, decides it is shit.
Plays the game a few dozen hours more, declares it is the dumbest game ever.

Are you a tsundere by any chance?

 

[Blaine]

I think it is more that it IS a tower defense game....

At least you've stopped trying to claim that Wube Software initially billed Factorio as a tower defense game. I called you out on that before, and you were never able to find the tiniest scrap of evidence to support your argument.

As a genre, tower defense games are shallow, simplistic, easy, and very cookie-cutter. Like hidden object games, the entire genre is thoroughly casual. I played a few of them years ago, realized this, and then stopped playing them altogether. Mindustry is actually the only one I've played in many years, for obvious reasons.

On the whole, I'm very glad that Factorio isn't a tower defense game, because they fucking suck. I also once asked you to name a tower defense game that was actually good, and you refused to do that, too.

 

[anvi]

It was another annoying game which had tower defense in their tags. But this game did sort of bill itself as tower defense too by having a td mode.. and having towers, and having things to defend against... If you just wanna build, why not play Anno or Skylines or whatever? I play those games and they are nice, sedate. But I wanna use my money to slaughter something and this game could have done that.

TD games are not any of those things you are talking about. I already told you, go get Defense Grid is is practically free on Steam. The last level of that is satisfying af. And then the DLC too. There is also one called Dungeon Warfare which looks pixel and cheap but is very good too. And lots of more complex ones but these ones were my favorite. TD games are basically just a spin off from RTS games. And there is no reason for them to be different.