B 1 IV
-
Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.
"This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
Europareich 2057 - A Cyberpunk CYOA
- Thread starter Hellraiser
- Start date
I don't mind that really. Translates to a more pen & paper-esque experience where the best we can do is try and minimise (but never truly eliminate) risks. Has the downside though where we can carefully pick the smartest option/painstakingly plot but still have it fail due to an unfortunate roll.
Monty
Arcane
Yes I agree with Oscar, even the best possible plan has a chance of failing due to random, unpredictable events which seems realistic to me (and adds interest) rather than turning the CYOA into merely a planning exercise. Of course it all depends on how weighted the odds are, if we choose the perfect plan it should only have a small chance of going wrong, not 50/50, say.
Esquilax
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2010
- Messages
- 4,833
Personally, I'm on the fence about it. On the one hand, I don't think that you can apply that P&P experience to a CYOA where stats are pretty fluid and you don't really have info on numbers. Also, it leads to absurd situations like having our break-in ruined by a stray cat, or having trained soldiers like Muller and Ida not being able to hit a single pirate and visa versa while the boat captain's gun jams at the same time. It does make the story stand out and creates some chaos, though. Plus it makes it different than the other CYOA's, so I guess it's a mixed blessing.
The problem is that we don't know what the risks are, how they are quantified, how our abilities are quantified, what we roll for, how we roll etc. We're, basically, stumbling around while Hellraiser gets off on our butthurt.
Monty
Arcane
I agree, the one-off McKay hack should be a last resort. In the best case scenario he wipes all the evidence of our mission and cleans up our tracks. Worst case, he would be last desperate hope if we get arrested.
Usually I would suggest we go back a different route to the one we came in on (5), but in this case I think it could work in our favour. We'll be heading into a war zone with Berbers and soldiers all over the place, I doubt a couple of civilian cops will follow us for long in that direction, particularly in response to a break in in a dodgy part of town. It's not like we just massacred a group of civilians, so I think self-preservation will make them give up soon as the front line is not far away and not clearly defined.
Now that the cops are involved we need to assume that the risks of being stopped at checkpoints have gone up dramatically, and they'll all have descriptions of our van. So options 2-4, 'safer' but with more checkpoints, have suddenly become very dangerous to us. Whereas 5, with the least checkpoints but the most danger from terrorists etc, hasn't really increased in risk IMO. So 5 gets my vote, and we'll have to keep our weapons obviously, can't see us wanting to discard them and we'll need them for the war-torn area we're heading into.
I think we should take a chance and let Borg take out the tyres of the cop cars. He's our best shot, and given their lack of resources I don't think we'll immediately have air support on us. Worth the risk as it may give us the time needed to escape far enough towards the front line. This will allow us to stick to the main road, the last thing we want to risk is getting lost or stuck in small roads in forests or fields.
A 1 V
I have to agree a bit with skuphundaku here. In a PnP session, you know what your rate of succes is, at least roughly, when attempting different things. You can estimate the chance for failure/succes as you go along, and each and every choice is weighed up against this scale.
Plus, bearing the results of how the die lands is easier if the hand throwing it is your own.
A CYOA with die rolling can work. We just need a bit more info on our and our teams' skills and what skills are involved in each choice to be able to make an informed decision. If not, then we're flailing around blind here, and while that can be amusing, it can also be extremely frustrating. M:
Plus, bearing the results of how the die lands is easier if the hand throwing it is your own.
A CYOA with die rolling can work. We just need a bit more info on our and our teams' skills and what skills are involved in each choice to be able to make an informed decision. If not, then we're flailing around blind here, and while that can be amusing, it can also be extremely frustrating. M:
Rumsfeld
Scholar
I think too much info on odds, 'quantification' and mechanics could mess with the flow of the story though, and interfere with suspension of disbelief. I agree it can be frustrating in that we could debate for hours on what the perfect plan is, and then have it ruined by a chance, low-probability event. But couldn't this also happen in any real special ops mission? I think a small amount of butthurt, and taking our failures with good grace, is not a bad exchange for the all the effort (and great writing) Hellraiser is putting in here.
edit: And the odds are something we'll just have to estimate in any decision. The odds on a cat on the stairs interfering in our ambush are surely smaller than Borg missing the tyres on a moving vehicle or hitting something else, so I suppose we'll just have to trust Hellraiser on being reasonable with the odds.
The cat didn't interfere with our mission. The cat was our fatepoint, it let us discover the hacker before she found us.
The fatepoint was spent because we rolled abysmally on the lockpicking and then perception/hearing rolls, otherwise she'd have barricaded herself even more. The cat let us have a chance at an ambush, which we then proceeded to roll equally abysmally on.
I don't want it spelled out. But a rough estimate as is already provided on the protagonist, rating people on a 1-5 scale in different skillsets is nice. And have the choices list what skills are pertinent for said choice would also help.
But I agree that taking this in good grace is a small exchange for the LP continuing.
The fatepoint was spent because we rolled abysmally on the lockpicking and then perception/hearing rolls, otherwise she'd have barricaded herself even more. The cat let us have a chance at an ambush, which we then proceeded to roll equally abysmally on.
I don't want it spelled out. But a rough estimate as is already provided on the protagonist, rating people on a 1-5 scale in different skillsets is nice. And have the choices list what skills are pertinent for said choice would also help.
But I agree that taking this in good grace is a small exchange for the LP continuing.
Hellraiser
Arcane
Oh come on, I am giving you as much information as a person in the said situation would have. Maybe I should have spelled it out that there is one door and it will probably be locked (the lock was fairly easy), maybe I should have mentioned (as Smashing Axe guessed correctly) that the hacker may be awake.
Breaking in wasn't the optimal choice though, it was the riskiest mostly due to all the things that could have gone wrong( K.I.S.S. applies due to Murphy's laws, fate points are supposed to prevent major bad rolls screwing you over, unluckily you got two in a row despite the odds), you also picked Oskaras who didn't really help much. Although he didn't hinder your efforts, at the very least you had somebody to drag the hacker back to the car as you scoured for data storage devices. Not that the other choices weren't risky, but until actually confronting the target you had little chance of attracting the police's attention, unlike here where the neighbors could have spotted you (they didn't) before hand or the hacker could have heard something (which she did, despite odds).
The problem here is that you went on a covert mission with people you know maybe for a week or so, not really knowing much about them. You know your abilities but don't know much about the rest of the squad for various reasons. Also a critical fuck up would have been if you would have gotten caught on the spot with a "rocks fall, everybody dies" like ending. You have a way out, you have the hacker tied up in your van, sure cops are on your tail but it is possible to lose them, don't panic. I don't want to screw Ida over with one unlucky roll, if she dies or gets imprisoned for life (or worse) it will be as a result of a series of bad choices. Although it is debatable whether going to Spain in the first place wasn't the first one of those.
Now, I understand the frustration over the vagueness of the mechanics. The reason for that is that I want you taking risks and analyzing them from an in-character perspective, rather than metagaming it based of the mechanics. If you want Ida's abilities view the character sheet, that's what I'm using and that is why I made it, so that you know your strengths and weaknesses. If you have the chance of getting to know how hard a lock or whatever may be, it will be mentioned in the chapter. I probably should have said it outright that everything is based of the character sheet in one way or another. After all it makes no sense for you to not know what can or can't you do and how well. As mentioned you know little about your squad mates, that is the most obscure part at the moment.
Now one thing I will do is readjust the current system as it does lead to far too many critical fucks ups (Sven being particularly prone to them, God hates swedes
), the odds of failure even when they should be low are too high and that is my fault. I apologize for that and will attempt to fix the current obviously broken failure mechanics, so that the execution is more along the lines of what I originally had in mind (and some of you already suggested) for a CYOA with built-in randomness. I don't want to screw you over with the mechanics when they are as obscure as they are.
Nigga' please!
Isn't this one of the excuse those so-called journalists make for all the shit games being released? "Think about how much work and how much money has been put into this! It must be good!" Nobody is forcing him to write it, nobody is forcing me/us to read it/take part in it, but if I'm going to rage-quit again, I'm not going to go silently and I'm going to call bullshit first. Sparing Hellraiser feelings is just going to lead to him not realizing that what he's doing is not quite as good as it could have been because he seems more intent on trolling us than anything else.
Monty
Arcane
Before Sven takes the shot at the tyres please! In his current form I can seen him hitting someone in our van or something despite being our sharpshooter.Now one thing I will do is readjust the current system as it does lead to far too many critical fucks ups (Sven being particularly prone to them, God hates swedes
Rumsfeld
Scholar
It's in no way self-explanatory that breaking in wasn't the optimal choice. You're making assumptions based on your way of thinking, which don't apply to the way others think, and on a narrative that you have in your head and we don't. That's why I'm saying that there is not enough information being provided in order to make informed choices. All of that is flushed down the toiled with all the dice rolling anyway because, once you add randomness, you can succeed with flying colors when choosing a sub-optimal (in your opinion) option or fail miserably when choosing the optimal (in your opinion) option. All of this turns everything into mush and we're just wading through it for pure masochistic pleasure. Well, I've had my fill of masochistic pleasure, thank you very much.
Hellraiser
Arcane
Oh and yes, the cat was only relevant mechanics-wise when the fate point was used. Its appearance after that is superficial as far as the chase after the hacker is concerned, I thought it would be a nice piece of flavor.
Some odds though can't be described for various reasons. You can't realistically guess how likely you are to hear the hacker from the outside, if you have never been inside the house, don't know how thick the doors or walls are, what they are made of etc. Now you can guess she may notice you (which I implied IIRC), but how likely she is to do that depends on factors nobody can be really aware of unless he knows the person personally and is inside the house at the moment (does she have hearing implants? is she upstairs or downstairs?). That's also a problem, but it is the kind of uncertainty that the PC would have to deal with if she was actual person in that situation. Nobody said Spain would be a cakewalk even if the plan was simple and the country is thirdworldia in this setting.
You still made it relatively effortlessly through the uplink in the library part, got through 2 pirate attacks without a scratch (well Sven got one but it wasn't anything major). Not 100% perfect as there were minor screw ups (mugging instead of pickpocketing the wallet), but it could have went a lot worse. That choice was one of the safer ones, though you would be surprised as how easy the "human element" in that chapter could have been if you picked the right person. But you couldn't know that as, like I mentioned before, you barely know the people you are with (though I did hint who might be good for that somewhere in the chapter, although indirectly).
Some odds though can't be described for various reasons. You can't realistically guess how likely you are to hear the hacker from the outside, if you have never been inside the house, don't know how thick the doors or walls are, what they are made of etc. Now you can guess she may notice you (which I implied IIRC), but how likely she is to do that depends on factors nobody can be really aware of unless he knows the person personally and is inside the house at the moment (does she have hearing implants? is she upstairs or downstairs?). That's also a problem, but it is the kind of uncertainty that the PC would have to deal with if she was actual person in that situation. Nobody said Spain would be a cakewalk even if the plan was simple and the country is thirdworldia in this setting.
You still made it relatively effortlessly through the uplink in the library part, got through 2 pirate attacks without a scratch (well Sven got one but it wasn't anything major). Not 100% perfect as there were minor screw ups (mugging instead of pickpocketing the wallet), but it could have went a lot worse. That choice was one of the safer ones, though you would be surprised as how easy the "human element" in that chapter could have been if you picked the right person. But you couldn't know that as, like I mentioned before, you barely know the people you are with (though I did hint who might be good for that somewhere in the chapter, although indirectly).
If you think a truly special ops outfit would leave so much to chance, than you're not talking about true spec ops but about a bunch of mall ninjas.
You are just confirming my hypothesis that everything is based on a narrative that you have in your head and that you assume that we have the same thought process as you, so we should be able to, somehow, follow that thought process in order to come to the right conclusion. All this implying this and implying that, which for you may be obvious because, well, you've already though about it, is a ridiculous way of communicating actionable information.
As for this whole "you don't know your team" thing, that's bullshit. Do you think a team going behind enemy lines would not talk amongst each other and find out what each one's strengths and weaknesses?
Finally, the fact that we made up to this point without major problems just goes to prove that adding dice rolls makes debating about what is the optimal choice meaningless. The dice rolls are meaningless because, as I said previously, we don't know what we're rolling for. So, we, actually, have almost no control of what is going to happen.
EDIT: Our level of control is almost at the level of screaming at the screen "Don't go into that room!" during a horror movie.
Hellraiser
Arcane
That has already been taken into account when I thought of that choice. Either way you didn't really have a chance to see him shoot in combat, his failures would be less of the "friendly fire - headshots the CO" variety and more of the "damn gun jammed" or "suddenly a big wave shook the boat as he was trying to shoot" variety.
Was it spelled outright that it was the worst choice? No. Was it mentioned that the neighbors can be a problem? Yes. Was it mentioned that getting inside quietly won't be easy? Yes. Should I still have described it in more detail? Yes I should have.
The thing I did fuck up which I can admit, is that I didn't describe the other options in more detail. That was my mistake I now see, hindsight is always 20-20. You had no way of making a properly informed choice, as the other choices were even more of a gamble with next to none information apart from what you will do in general. Once again I apologize for that, the criticism is valid (I appreciate the feedback), I am aware that this CYOA is far from perfect in different aspects and I do want to improve it. The current chapter explains the options you have better.
Now, I understand why you do not like the randomness. And I understand that my line of thinking doesn't really apply to any other person, that is an issue with writing a CYOA even with non-random action results, see how Heracles died in the Mutiverse one for a good example of a choice that was obviously suicidal according to me but not by anyone else.
However I am a firm believer in Murphy's laws and the assumption that nothing ever goes according to plan, look at how Mossad agents got into a firefight with Lebanese cops in Beirut, the plan was the cops don't spot the dressed as club-goers (including a few cross-dressing males) agents. Sure it's Mossad, but even they had a fuck up and even they had casualties despite performing well overall.
One other reason I added the randomness, was because it allows me to play out different scenarios depending on the outcome where one isn't exactly clear. There were and will be deterministic choices as there will be and were ones with the element of luck (however I will make a better job at describing the odds), that was and is the plan I had for this CYOA. If you wish to cease following this CYOA because of that feel free to do so and I won't blame you, however I will greatly miss your feedback.
Furthermore I wanted to add, that if anyone somehow think of something I didn't think off (a common occurrence), that makes a choice more likely to succeed if there is a random element to it or 100% guaranteed it to succeed if the reason is good enough.
Rumsfeld
Scholar
Calm down dear, it's just a CYOA.
It sounds like you always want to be proved right and told how smart you are, and when things don't go the way you expect you throw your toys out the pram. I find it entertaining, I'm glad Hellraiser writes it and I'm guessing from the contributions here that others find it entertaining too. If you want everything to be predictable and mechanical perhaps playing a board game in your room would suit you better. We'll miss your contributions and your little tantrums though.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
- Messages
- 2,835
I'm just going to echo Rumsfeld. I appreciate what you're doing Hellraiser, but do agree that the critical failure system might be coming into play a bit too much. It's nice to be there but shouldn't be coming up every second choice. It reminds me somewhat of playing a fighter in one of my old PnP games. Under the DM's rules, every 1 is a critical failure and could involve dropping your sword, or a host of other penalties. This presented a problem however, as the more attacks per round you gained, the greater your chance of critical failure, despite you ostensibly improving in combat. At close to 20th level you're dealing 5 attacks a round with effectively 25% chance of failure instead of 5%. Just a suggestion, but perhaps you should separate critical failure from regular failure. Our solution was to just have the first attack of every full-round attack be subject to the critical failure rule, instead of every attack. Instead perhaps roll for critical failure only once an update, separate from skills and other abilities?
All that said, I'm loving this LP. Please don't be discouraged from continuing it, it's greatly entertaining and a real show of your writing talent.
All that said, I'm loving this LP. Please don't be discouraged from continuing it, it's greatly entertaining and a real show of your writing talent.
oh, you! OK, I won't leave but I'll keep quiet for a while and see how it goes because, as I said an update ago, I get so pissed when Hellraiser fucks up because I think he's doing a great work but, if he could improve here and there, it would be so much better. If I would have thought that what he's doing is shit, I wouldn't have bothered in the first place. That's what they call "tough love" :D.
Seerix
Arbiter
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2012
- Messages
- 235
Taking into the account that Hellraiser gonna make his mechanics less prone to critical failures:
I think that B is the safest choice, we'll be away from any potential additional cops and it's much safer than C where we may end up in a hole or just stuck in a mud. D is just begging for a fuck up and getting more cops or crashing into a wall(imo more lethal than crashing into a tree). Plus, there are probably security cameras on the streets deeper in town, even simple stuff like cameras taking shots at people riding over red lights will be a problem as it will mean more work for McKay(he may be a valuable resource in the future, pissing him off with our "inefficiency" is imo bad idea).
Also, with B we can try to shoot at them without having to worry about any reinforcements they may call as even a chopper will take a while before getting to the city outskirts. So 1.
And Path IV, seems the best choice still. Other paths have bigger chances of our car turning into a burning wreck, I think.
Are we recognized as some terrorists or whatever? If not then I don't think that military will be warned about some random criminals doing the kidnapping and shooting at police cars with small arms.
So, B 1 IV.
I think that B is the safest choice, we'll be away from any potential additional cops and it's much safer than C where we may end up in a hole or just stuck in a mud. D is just begging for a fuck up and getting more cops or crashing into a wall(imo more lethal than crashing into a tree). Plus, there are probably security cameras on the streets deeper in town, even simple stuff like cameras taking shots at people riding over red lights will be a problem as it will mean more work for McKay(he may be a valuable resource in the future, pissing him off with our "inefficiency" is imo bad idea).
Also, with B we can try to shoot at them without having to worry about any reinforcements they may call as even a chopper will take a while before getting to the city outskirts. So 1.
And Path IV, seems the best choice still. Other paths have bigger chances of our car turning into a burning wreck, I think.
Are we recognized as some terrorists or whatever? If not then I don't think that military will be warned about some random criminals doing the kidnapping and shooting at police cars with small arms.
So, B 1 IV.
Monty
Arcane
I think it's extremely likely that if the cops give up the chase, knowing we are heading towards various military roadblocks, they would make a quick call to the military warning them that we were potential terrorists who had already fired on police, and provide a description of the van. That's certainly what I would do in their situation, and it also covers their asses - ie they can inform their superiors that they handed over the problem to the military when they gave up the chase. I think it's entirely reasonable to assume that any checkpoint we encounter from now on will have a description of the 'Raul's Cleaning' van.
Seerix
Arbiter
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2012
- Messages
- 235
I wouldn't be so quick to assume they would even have our car's logo, it is night after all and if I'm to get very technical: visibility of "Raul's Cleaning Goods" depends on the colors that were used for it so if our game master Hellraiser tells us what they are we can estimate the probability of cops managing to read our logo, in the night and with orange lights illuminating it. 
But I agree with rest of what you said, so...
Let's say that military gets warned. Then Path V is our only option. Smugglers we can fight and have sufficient equipment, not so much proper military.
But it all depends on whether or not cops call the military, so...
B 4 IV for now. Still not sure about the what path to choose but we should indeed refrain from any potential escalation and just rely on our driver's ability to lose the pigs in the forest.
But I agree with rest of what you said, so...
Let's say that military gets warned. Then Path V is our only option. Smugglers we can fight and have sufficient equipment, not so much proper military.
But it all depends on whether or not cops call the military, so...
B 4 IV for now. Still not sure about the what path to choose but we should indeed refrain from any potential escalation and just rely on our driver's ability to lose the pigs in the forest.
Hellraiser
Arcane
You can assume that they only saw the back of the van and could barely read your license plate.
As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.