Eschalon: Book III

[Unkillable Cat]

This is a public service announcement from Basilisk Games.

Eschalon: Book III is a very challenging game, especially the first time through. If you are the type of person who, in real life, likes to explore abandoned factories with weak floors and crumbling ceilings, then Book III might be right for you. If you enjoy receiving puzzles that your very life depends on solving, or perhaps swimming in shark-infested waters with meat strapped to your legs sounds like a thrilling afternoon, then you might have fun playing Book III. If you always chose “dare” instead of “truth”, or if you are one of those people who does things your own way because your boss is an idiot, then you’ll enjoy Book III.

However, if your idea of a good time is snuggling up with a safe choose-your-own-adventure book and a hot mug of cocoa, then email us and we’ll direct you to a few mainstream RPGs that are more your speed.

Still unsure as to why they didn't send a press release to the Codex, what with them sporting this attitude.

 

[Gord]

I wonder if it's just an elaborate way of saying "our balance still sucks"...

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the game.

 

[Loriac]

This is a public service announcement from Basilisk Games.

Eschalon: Book III is a very challenging game, especially the first time through. If you are the type of person who, in real life, likes to explore abandoned factories with weak floors and crumbling ceilings, then Book III might be right for you. If you enjoy receiving puzzles that your very life depends on solving, or perhaps swimming in shark-infested waters with meat strapped to your legs sounds like a thrilling afternoon, then you might have fun playing Book III. If you always chose “dare” instead of “truth”, or if you are one of those people who does things your own way because your boss is an idiot, then you’ll enjoy Book III.

However, if your idea of a good time is snuggling up with a safe choose-your-own-adventure book and a hot mug of cocoa, then email us and we’ll direct you to a few mainstream RPGs that are more your speed.

Still unsure as to why they didn't send a press release to the Codex, what with them sporting this attitude.

Lol the quote is pure bullshit. Eschalon games 1 & 2 were extremely easy because the skill system is essentially broken; magic is too strong, too versatile, and too cheap compared to the other skills that if you build around a magic capable core you end up with a powerhouse that destroys whatever the game throws at you. I even tried to explain this on their forums after thoroughly playing through the 1st game a couple of times, but mostly what came back was omg this game is so hard if you play a pure mage or a pure thief or whatever; in other words, people were handicapping themselves and then twisting this into 'therefore the gaem must be hard !!one!'.

I'll still probably give the 3rd game a go, as they are enjoyable for what they are; however, take with a huge fistful of salt any claims that the games are hard in an oldschool sense.

 

[Minttunator]

I have to agree. I really enjoyed the first two games (and I'll be buying the third as well), but "difficult" isn't among the words I'd use to describe them - it was pretty easy to build an almost invincible character using magic. I played plate-wearing axe-wielding spellcasters myself, but a pure mage should be viable as well.

 

[Gord]

Indeed they are difficult if you stubbornly go for certain archetypes, but even then it usually gets better once you reach a certain threshold (e.g. once you gain special attacks in Book 2).
It's a typical issue with classless systems like the one Eschalon uses - if you know what to do, it's usually easy to exploit it and build a character that will make difficulty trivial, and being able to raise skills through trainers and books got you rid of the skillpoint limit that would otherwise restrict your characters progression.
Especially if you knew how to make money.

However, I liked the atmosphere of the games and the story was ok, too (for the most part, I'm still not sure what to think of the Orakur).
Also as far as indie rpgs go, the music and sound is really good (and graphics are far better than Vogel games).

 

[Luzur]

This is a public service announcement from Basilisk Games.

Eschalon: Book III is a very challenging game, especially the first time through. If you are the type of person who, in real life, likes to explore abandoned factories with weak floors and crumbling ceilings, then Book III might be right for you. If you enjoy receiving puzzles that your very life depends on solving, or perhaps swimming in shark-infested waters with meat strapped to your legs sounds like a thrilling afternoon, then you might have fun playing Book III. If you always chose “dare” instead of “truth”, or if you are one of those people who does things your own way because your boss is an idiot, then you’ll enjoy Book III.

However, if your idea of a good time is snuggling up with a safe choose-your-own-adventure book and a hot mug of cocoa, then email us and we’ll direct you to a few mainstream RPGs that are more your speed.

Still unsure as to why they didn't send a press release to the Codex, what with them sporting this attitude.

email them this "Come at me, Cocksucker."

 

[Loriac]

It's a typical issue with classless systems like the one Eschalon uses - if you know what to do, it's usually easy to exploit it and build a character that will make difficulty trivial, and being able to raise skills through trainers and books got you rid of the skillpoint limit that would otherwise restrict your characters progression.

Whilst this is true in general, Eschalon's system is broken because magic is able to replicate other skills almost entirely. For example, you're better off spending in magic to pick locks rather than build the lockpick skill (as the lockpick skill doesn't allow you to open anything that magic can't iirc). If you've spent those skill points in magic, suddenly you find you have access to various buffs that replicate 10+ skill levels in melee or ranged skills. You can also buff attributes significantly with magic, meaning that you can race directly at the start to the stats that maximise mana regeneration. And so on. You end up with a guy that has full magic, adequate melee and ranged capability that changes to excellent once you apply 3-4 buffs, and the versatility to do whatever else you want in the game.

One conversation I had on their forum was laughable - I was pointing all this out, and that my mid-level (level 10 or so iirc) character was pretty much unstoppable. Some guy got butthurt and stated that my mage wasn't a 'proper' mage who could throw around nukes etc. So I asked him how much mana and mana regeneration (I forget the name of the stat now, maybe it isn't called mana) his 'pure mage' build had, and it turned out to be a lot lower than my hybrid. I think he thought I was lying until I spelt out exactly how to create this overpowered monstrosity at which point he left the discussion.

The devs could have balanced all this in my opinion by rethinking their skill system, and creating 'expensive' skills [i.e. magic], 'average' skills [weapons skills], and 'cheap' skills [lockpicks etc]. The idea being that any character you build has to have broad capabilities in a singleplayer game like Eschalon, but you balance this by making versatile skills like magic cost you much more so the choice is to either get magic or to pick up the individual skills you want to use at a cheaper rate. I think I also suggested removing/depowering some spells or making the base skill able to do stuff magic couldn't. However, with all the feedback from people saying 'omg Escahlon is teh hard !!11!' I think the devs simply didn't see the problem with the game mechanics they'd designed.


Edit: I did a quick google to see if I could find my old posts, and found this thread http://basiliskgames.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=906

It was a poll put up by BW asking what people thought about class balance. In it, you can see the range of feedback from people who thought what was powerful and what not, but the impression I came away with on rereading it is that Eschalon players may think they're oldschool, but generally they don't have a clue about powergaming. Only 3 people out of 44 correctly responded that mages were overpowered, and I suspect this is because most players didn't properly optimise the rules as given to build a real monster.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I just saw that it was released today on GOG. I had no idea it was already coming out. Luckily I have a whole week of holiday so I'll have lots of time to play the hell out of this game.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

The Basilisk Games website is down, due to apparent server overload.

 

[Kruno]

Well you can move your character pretty quickly in the game, and combat feels faster too. Will get back to the game in 8 hours, I need sleep.

 

[Zed]

I am seriously considering grabbing this, even if I wasn't too fond of book II. I watch an LP and it piqued my interest.

 

[LESS T_T]

I'm about to download the demo, but their site is still down. It seems like their hosting company got serious problem and told them the site may be offline 24 hours more.

For temporary measure, developer tweeted download links.

https://twitter.com/BasiliskGames/status/434665095377854464

(You can play unregistered version i.e., demo)

 

[StaticSpine]

Why don't Basilisk put the demo to Steam?

 

[Hobo Elf]

Whilst this is true in general, Eschalon's system is broken because magic is able to replicate other skills almost entirely. For example, you're better off spending in magic to pick locks rather than build the lockpick skill (as the lockpick skill doesn't allow you to open anything that magic can't iirc). If you've spent those skill points in magic, suddenly you find you have access to various buffs that replicate 10+ skill levels in melee or ranged skills. You can also buff attributes significantly with magic, meaning that you can race directly at the start to the stats that maximise mana regeneration. And so on. You end up with a guy that has full magic, adequate melee and ranged capability that changes to excellent once you apply 3-4 buffs, and the versatility to do whatever else you want in the game.

One conversation I had on their forum was laughable - I was pointing all this out, and that my mid-level (level 10 or so iirc) character was pretty much unstoppable. Some guy got butthurt and stated that my mage wasn't a 'proper' mage who could throw around nukes etc. So I asked him how much mana and mana regeneration (I forget the name of the stat now, maybe it isn't called mana) his 'pure mage' build had, and it turned out to be a lot lower than my hybrid. I think he thought I was lying until I spelt out exactly how to create this overpowered monstrosity at which point he left the discussion.

The devs could have balanced all this in my opinion by rethinking their skill system, and creating 'expensive' skills [i.e. magic], 'average' skills [weapons skills], and 'cheap' skills [lockpicks etc]. The idea being that any character you build has to have broad capabilities in a singleplayer game like Eschalon, but you balance this by making versatile skills like magic cost you much more so the choice is to either get magic or to pick up the individual skills you want to use at a cheaper rate. I think I also suggested removing/depowering some spells or making the base skill able to do stuff magic couldn't. However, with all the feedback from people saying 'omg Escahlon is teh hard !!11!' I think the devs simply didn't see the problem with the game mechanics they'd designed.


Edit: I did a quick google to see if I could find my old posts, and found this thread http://basiliskgames.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=906

It was a poll put up by BW asking what people thought about class balance. In it, you can see the range of feedback from people who thought what was powerful and what not, but the impression I came away with on rereading it is that Eschalon players may think they're oldschool, but generally they don't have a clue about powergaming. Only 3 people out of 44 correctly responded that mages were overpowered, and I suspect this is because most players didn't properly optimise the rules as given to build a real monster.

While I agree that Magic-Users are stupid powerful (although I think it's fine because they are very reminiscent to D&D Wizards), there are some little advantages to disarming traps and picking locks without magic, like you get bonus XP for it. Although this, too, is flawed because the bonus XP is way too small. Also, not everyone is interested in powergaming and will want to LARP some kind of stealthy guy for kicks. I know I did and even though it wasn't optimal, it was entirely doable and fun.

I guess what I want to say is that even though I agree with you, I don't think nerfing magic and removing spells would be the right way to go to make other skills more viable. Being able to knock locks and divine area maps have always been Wizard staples before they were mutated into banal fireball flinging glass cannons. I just think the devs should've given more unique options for the skills to make them more appealing. I'm kinda disappointed that they've been running with this same skill system for so long even though it's been all kinds of fucked up. Especially the skill training. It practically screams to be exploited where you just hoard your skill points and spend gold to train the early levels and then skyrocket into obscene levels of power. Not to mention having a choice of spending a whole level worth of skill points to learn a new skill, or spend 100 gold to train it. I saw so many people complain about this but nothing has been done. I like Eschalon, but their attitude on insisting shit design because it's what they did in the past makes me worry for their future projects.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Have they given an ETA when their website will be up?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

So I downloaded the demo and decided to give it a try. Install works fine, I get to the settings window and stupidly make the mistake of selecting "OpenAL X-Fi" or something similar in sound settings. The game starts, but the music keeps cutting out, I got as far as the character screen before I decide to quit the game and change the sound settings and launch it again... except now I get an "access violation" error whenever I try to launch the game. Tried re-installing, no dice.

And the game's website is down. And Steam apparentely has no support for this game.

Assuming that I'm not the only one having trouble with the game, the sole fact that their website is down is causing Basilisk Games all kinds of trouble, to the point that it may cost them many sales. I'm certainly not forking over any money for this game for the time being.

EDIT: My Steam-Fu is sorely lacking, but I found a fix to my problem, deleting the .cfg file which is buried deep in the appdata/roaming/*** folder on my system. Basically, don't touch the sound options at start.

 

[flushfire]

tried the demo, first quests aren't really encouraging - they're either simple goto, collect or kill. some skills changed for the better, most are the same from 2. non-magic combat seems unchanged, which is bound to get boring after some time. one thing that annoyed me greatly from even book 1 is the lack of exact information about character stats/skills which is made worse by some stat gains being non-retroactive. not much has changed. back when there weren't multiple worthy rpgs being released it would've been a passable buy but right now not so much.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Did ANYTHING really change from Book 2? Any improvements to the game engine, anything "new" added? From my time with Book 3, I'm not seeing it.

It's even gotten stupidly predictable right off the start. Oh look, if I take this obvious sidepath guarded by a roach, there's a chest at the end. The moment I open it two roaches spawn at the start of the path to "block" my exit.

Also, calling it now:

Spoiler

One of the last cruxes (the one hidden deep underground, I'd guess) is in/under the starting map, but you won't be able to find it until you "learn" that fact from somewhere else.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Did anyone find the Spring? I have the 3 other items, bolt, wedge and fence-looking thing, but I cannot find the Spring anywhere.

Nvm I literally just figured it out. Kinda bullshitty how it was hidden, but oh well. Dat old skool hardcore design, eh?

Edit: And then the game just kind of ended. Meh. I felt like I was in the final stretch of the game, but the ending just came so suddenly I didn't even expect it. The whole game just felt rushed. This is certainly the weakest entry of the series.

 

[StaticSpine]

by far

is the game worth playing? I'm not familiar with the series - the things which caught my attention were the pretty 2d isometric style (reminded me of Arcanum) and TB combat system.

 

[Luzur]

so, anyone have any hint/tip or cheat to defeat the roach boss? she hands my LVL 4 ass back to me everytime (even tried to lead her back to the porticullis, but Basilisk clearly anticipated that tactic and blocked it..), and i have cleared most maps i can handle of enemies to LVL-up on.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

StaticSpine I never listen to reviews except if they're on the codex. And even then, it's only so far.
I'd say give it a whirl. I felt both the first and second were damn good for Indy games, but that's me and I certainly enjoyed the play-style and feel.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I can heartily recommend Eschalon 2, but I wouldn't recommend Eschalon 3 unless you want to beat it just to complete the series. Start with the second one. This last one is very linear, hardly any optional stuff to do (many things what may seem optional at first turns out to be mandatory to beat the main quest) and lacks any kind of replayability.

so, anyone have any hint/tip or cheat to defeat the roach boss? she hands my LVL 4 ass back to me everytime (even tried to lead her back to the porticullis, but Basilisk clearly anticipated that tactic and blocked it..), and i have cleared most maps i can handle of enemies to LVL-up on.

I just lured the roach into one of those explosive barrels and shot at it from a distance. Killed her good.

 

[StaticSpine]

StaticSpine I never listen to reviews except if they're on the codex. And even then, it's only so far.
I'd say give it a whirl. I felt both the first and second were damn good for Indy games, but that's me and I certainly enjoyed the play-style and feel.

I can heartily recommend Eschalon 2, but I wouldn't recommend Eschalon 3 unless you want to beat it just to complete the series. Start with the second one. This last one is very linear, hardly any optional stuff to do (many things what may seem optional at first turns out to be mandatory to beat the main quest) and lacks any kind of replayability.

so, anyone have any hint/tip or cheat to defeat the roach boss? she hands my LVL 4 ass back to me everytime (even tried to lead her back to the porticullis, but Basilisk clearly anticipated that tactic and blocked it..), and i have cleared most maps i can handle of enemies to LVL-up on.

I just lured the roach into one of those explosive barrels and shot at it from a distance. Killed her good.

what is gameplay similar too? are the games long and tedious?

 

[Luzur]

I can heartily recommend Eschalon 2, but I wouldn't recommend Eschalon 3 unless you want to beat it just to complete the series. Start with the second one. This last one is very linear, hardly any optional stuff to do (many things what may seem optional at first turns out to be mandatory to beat the main quest) and lacks any kind of replayability.

so, anyone have any hint/tip or cheat to defeat the roach boss? she hands my LVL 4 ass back to me everytime (even tried to lead her back to the porticullis, but Basilisk clearly anticipated that tactic and blocked it..), and i have cleared most maps i can handle of enemies to LVL-up on.

I just lured the roach into one of those explosive barrels and shot at it from a distance. Killed her good.

what barrels? those back in the other tunnel?