Engagement System Questions

[Hobo Elf]

I tried armor and shields but then I was hard pressed to cast anything. I died a wee bit slower, but I was also put in a situation where I wasn't able to do dish out enough damage to kill them either. In the end I just lumped everyone in a blob and said a silent prayer to RNGesus. I eventually got through the dungeon, but it wasn't that fun. All other encounters vs normal enemies who don't teleport range from medium difficulty to almost trivial. This was the only ime I had a problem and it was because I was fighting against an enemy who existed in a dimension where the engagement system wasn't a thing lol.

 

[Bubbles]

If the casters don't have the per-rests and disables to wipe the shadows before they become a threat, then they aren't doing very much anyway. It's not like the shadows can drop you from full to nothing within the first seconds of the battle.

 

[Hobo Elf]

They can on Hard.

 

[roshan]

Your first point is mostly bullshit. Yes you COULD position fighters in the way of enemies, but it was not reliable at all. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. It was more successful if you had a door or something to funnel enemies THROUGH, but if you didn't, prepare to micro manage the hell out of the fight keeping your squishes running for their lives.

This is an exaggerated issue that was never an actual problem in the IE games. You could block the enemies path with one or two fighters (they will usually turn to fight the fighters) and the cast one of myriad disabling spells.

I sort of agree with your second point. Breaking engagement is supposed to have penalties. I get that desire from the design, and I agree with it. My problem with it is that the enemy will never break engagement with my characters, or at least I have never seen it - so my characters are the only one who get hit by the free attack. This does not feel like a problem with the "lockdown" portion of the engagement mechanic, but the free attack part. BTW, the AoO in IWD games was bullshit too then to by your own "instant attack" argument as well - not that I remember enemies ever letting themselves get AoO'd.... again a penalty that only players usually paid.

What AOO are you talking about? There were no attacks of opportunity in the Icewind Dale games....

I don't agree with your 3rd point as it is written. RtwP games, the IE games including NWN, are simulationg turn based mechanics. Everyone is on the same 6 second round. Not to change the point, but there is plenty of other messed up shit in the 2nd edition IE games, for example, you could shoot bows and other ranged weapons, point blank, into enemies without penalty. I'm not seeing how that combat system is superior.

There was a -4 penalty for using ranged weapons in melee in all the 2nd edition IE games.

 

[Shevek]

The system does not seem complicated to me, and it doesn't seem hard. We've received tons of feedback and emails from OTHER players who get it and LOVE it. They are vastly in the category of, "thank God, I can now protect my casters instead of kiting enemies around like a Benny Hill skit." I wanted to try and understand, but I like it. I do.

Obviously, it's great to engage, but it's not as great when you're the one being engaged. You need to look at it from both directions.

This may not be the popular opinion but I LIKE being engaged. I enjoy needing to think about what I need to do to earn the mobility I may need in combat. That adds a nice layer to character/party creation and to how I approach combat in general.

 

[Anthony Davis]

If it's a good initiate, you got it, if not, you wipe.

The game has always played this way (although not always wipe, I just reload if a character goes down, because that's a failure to me).

I don't play that way. When I was streaming on Hard Mode, I went right through the front gates of Raedric's Castle. Several tough fights there, and yes, I had people go down, but I still won. Having one character go down be a trigger for reload seems like an unreasonable response.

 

[Sensuki]

Why? I consider it a personal failure.

I don't struggle either, because I'm good at the game. I agree with Hobo Elf that when I do fuck up it's because I fucked up my initial opener.

 

[Bubbles]

They can on Hard.

Played through the temple on PotD at level 3 with a Cipher main, and this never happened to me

 

[Anthony Davis]

Shades and Shadows are tough, no lie. I was struggling with it myself on Hard Mode in my stream, then the chatters were telling me to use fire.

Then the fights got a whole lot easier.

They are also susceptible to Holy Radiance I believe if your reputation is good enough.

 

[tuluse]

Why? I consider it a personal failure.

You have to admit this is a bit extreme.

 

[Bubbles]

Aloth's Fan of Flames is great, yeah. I generally use it on every larger group of remotely dangerous enemies during the early levels - it's not that hard to aim if you only have one front liner.

 

[Sensuki]

Why? I consider it a personal failure.

You have to admit this is a bit extreme.

It's not. I want to beat all of the encounters without losing anyone. Someone dropping is failing that goal.

 

[tuluse]

Why? I consider it a personal failure.

You have to admit this is a bit extreme.

It's not. I want to beat all of the encounters without losing anyone.

But someone going down isn't losing them, that's the whole point of the health system.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Why? I consider it a personal failure.

I don't struggle either, because I'm good at the game. I agree with Hobo Elf that when I do fuck up it's because I fucked up my initial opener.

That honestly sounds like a personal and OCD issue to me then. Sorry, but there it is. I think it's ridiculous that you believe yourself some sort of tactical genius that SHOULD be able to beat ANY fight on ANY difficulty with NO casualties! That's fucking extreme man and I'm not gonna be held hostage to this ridiculous standard.




I'm able to beat fights on Hard mode that I've never fought before - sometimes with and sometimes without casualties, and many times I can beat them on the first shot.

 

[Sensuki]

Why? I consider it a personal failure.

You have to admit this is a bit extreme.

It's not. I want to beat all of the encounters without losing anyone.

But someone going down isn't losing them, that's the whole point of the health system.

Couldn't give a fig.

That's fucking extreme man and I'm not gonna be held hostage to this ridiculous standard.

What the fuck? This is my personal standard for me. I don't require anyone else to play like I do and it has nothing to do with anything in this thread. Don't understand why you guys are getting mad about it.

You're starting to get a little bit defensive.

 

[Hobo Elf]

They can on Hard.

Played through the temple on PotD at level 3 with a Cipher main, and this never happened to me

'kay.

 

[Bubbles]

I also categorically reload on knock-outs, even for the temp party members at the start. It just stings hard to see the enemy "defeat" one your party, especially if you know that you can do better.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Why? I consider it a personal failure.

You have to admit this is a bit extreme.

It's not. I want to beat all of the encounters without losing anyone.

But someone going down isn't losing them, that's the whole point of the health system.

It's a fucking ridiculous statement to make Sensuki , and you are the loudest one about it - but now we get the true reason. PoE is an insult to your tactical ability because you can't beat the fights, every fight, without casualties - therefore the problem MUST be with PoE.

I'm actually angry you even said that. You are so loud and poisonous on this ONE thing - and it turns out it's all because of YOUR OWN RIDICULOUS standard!

 

[Sensuki]

Could you please fucking read what I said and stop making up bullshit assumptions.

I honestly don't understand why you are getting angry at something that isn't even related to the engagement discussion. What are you so angry about, that you have to start flinging insults at me for?

I fucking smash encounters in this game WITH engagement. I'm playing with it right now on my playthrough.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Why? I consider it a personal failure.

You have to admit this is a bit extreme.

It's not. I want to beat all of the encounters without losing anyone.

But someone going down isn't losing them, that's the whole point of the health system.

Couldn't give a fig.

That's fucking extreme man and I'm not gonna be held hostage to this ridiculous standard.

What the fuck? This is my personal standard for me. I don't require anyone else to play like I do and it has nothing to do with anything in this thread. Don't understand why you guys are getting mad about it.

You're starting to get a little bit defensive.

I am mad! You go EVERYWHERE, to numerous forums across the internet, pouring poison into anyone who will listen, many of those listeners haven't even PLAYED the game, about this one issue, over and over again. That's so not cool. I'm not defensive at all, I'm pissed off. All this time I thought it was because there were issues with it - now it sounds like the only issue is that you can't beat the fights without casualties?

I apologize for getting mad at you, I should be better about it, because you are cool, but man. Tell me I misunderstood you! Please!

 

[Sensuki]

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Is anyone else reading this?

 

[Infinitron]

Anthony, bro, chill.

 

[Hegel]

Yeah, he's so poisonous he's been wasting hundreds of hours beta-testing the game.

 

[Seari]

 

[Grunker]

Let's take a step back here and review how the system actually works.

I appreciate that you're having a conversation on many fronts here, but declaring the system a success while ignoring every single one of my points - even the one central one I bolded to show the real consequence of the system - is not an indication of "not trying to troll anyone here, and I'm not trying to blindly defend Josh".

They can on Hard.

Played through the temple on PotD at level 3 with a Cipher main, and this never happened to me

Huh? If my casters get engaged, they're dead. Swiftly. I don't think that part is really that bad, I'm just miffed that you're playing on a higher difficulty and that's not the case for you.