Engagement System Questions

[Athelas]

You left out the most important bit of that quote:

Actually, I think it is overstated. AoOs are an integral, and contested, part of 3E combat. Not necessarily "great". They work reasonably well in a tabletop turn-based environment. They work less well (and make a lot less sense) in a real-time CRPG environment. For an example that supports this, NWN's handling of AoOs felt very haphazard due to when they went off and how they were executed. They were great in ToEE because they were modeling the tabletop environment very closely.

 

[Ellef]

I don't really see what that link shows except JES slapping down some fool.

 

[Roguey]

"some fool"

You left out the most important bit of that quote:

Actually, I think it is overstated. AoOs are an integral, and contested, part of 3E combat. Not necessarily "great". They work reasonably well in a tabletop turn-based environment. They work less well (and make a lot less sense) in a real-time CRPG environment. For an example that supports this, NWN's handling of AoOs felt very haphazard due to when they went off and how they were executed. They were great in ToEE because they were modeling the tabletop environment very closely.

Oh he's been nastier than that. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-go-to-new-thread.93694/page-320#post-3730954

 

[Ellef]

So what's with engagement then if he's not a fan of real time AoO's?

 

[Grunker]

So what's with engagement then if he's not a fan of real time AoO's?

Read the thread. I point out how retarded it is, and Roguey makes an apologetic "but they're not haphazard" remark (whatever that's supposed to mean). In game they're actually a bit different since there's less movement-related retardo (like NWN2 AoOs), but fundamentally the arguments Josh make can be applied to engagement as well.

 

[Ellef]

So I'm gathering he was bitter that aggro mechanics were rejected out of hand, but got his revenge with an engagement system.

 

[Grunker]

lol

 

[hiver]

How good AoOs in any system are only depends on how exactly you implement them.
As any other mechanic.

If the idea and execution is bad then of course they will not work well. Its extreme stupidity then to assert that AoOs dont work in any specific environment at all.
Same as this idea and implementation of engagement. Its simply planned and executed badly. That does not mean its absolutely bad.

Thats just extreme nonsense idiot thinking.

 

[Athelas]

So I'm gathering he was bitter that aggro mechanics were rejected out of hand, but got his revenge with an engagement system.

Well, those quotes are about a decade old. Maybe he's warmed up to AoO's in the meantime. People change...sometimes for the worse.

 

[ArchAngel]

My eder has 65 def... not sure if that's bug buffed or not. 43 without his door/shield

Now that you mention it, I could not find a place to see what the Bash ability does given by that shield.

I think it turns the shield into a weapon that does a small amount of crushing damage. You can see a character gaining a secondary attack if they equip it.

Yes, but still there is no place to see the exact description. And that shield attack seems to be super slow.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Disengagement abilities do not matter if the enemy can just teleport to you over and over again.

I think there's some bugs with some of the companions stats. I think my Eder's defenses are a bit higher than they should be.

heh shadows. Yeah those fuckers are annoying. Especially since that teleporting ability picks random party member not their target of attack.
Aside from shadows i saw this ability only on some rogues.

Annoying ? Yes. Problem ? Not really.

They don't teleport to a random party member, the AI seems rigged so that shadows will always teleport to a mage.

 

[Grunker]

Disengagement abilities do not matter if the enemy can just teleport to you over and over again.

I think there's some bugs with some of the companions stats. I think my Eder's defenses are a bit higher than they should be.

heh shadows. Yeah those fuckers are annoying. Especially since that teleporting ability picks random party member not their target of attack.
Aside from shadows i saw this ability only on some rogues.

Annoying ? Yes. Problem ? Not really.

They don't teleport to a random party member, the AI seems rigged so that shadows will always teleport to a mage.

I don't have a mage. They teleport to my Backline, but they seem to switch between Durance, Kana and Sagani.

 

[hiver]

If you know where the enemy will teleport, it should be nothing easier then to exploit that.

 

[tdphys]

If you know where the enemy will teleport, it should be nothing easier then to exploit that.

For what it's worth, I have broken engagement with Eder once with 3 enemys, to go and knock down something that was tormenting aloth. Only cause he still had some spells that needed to be used, otherwise, he makes good bait. I'd do it more, if I could assume that the cost-benefit was legitimate, which it would be if disengagement was just a regular melee attack, maybe with a -.2 or -.3 multiplier.

 

[Mangoose]

How good AoOs in any system are only depends on how exactly you implement them.
As any other mechanic.

If the idea and execution is bad then of course they will not work well. Its extreme stupidity then to assert that AoOs dont work in any specific environment at all.
Same as this idea and implementation of engagement. Its simply planned and executed badly. That does not mean its absolutely bad.

Thats just extreme nonsense idiot thinking.

I completely agree.

I was just venting. Obviously there's no possibility of changing that much in such an embedded part of the engine.

But I am sincere and serious in that RTWP needs more macromanagement, not micromanagement. Though I will concede that mages/clerics are okay with micromanaging spells.

I do have to admit I haven't played the game. So I'm not truly biased on way or the other. I did buy the game. I'll judge later for myself, when I have time. But right now the feedback seems very disappointing mainly, because I had been dearly hoping the engagement system was one of my biggest mechanics that I was looking forward to.

 

[hiver]

Or you can just have someone stay with Aloth, give him that wizard double spell, or Durance cast a trap spell he has, or have Aloth put down some traps, etc, etc.
The only problem with that dungeon part is that it comes too early in the game where you dont have that much abilities and spells.

But its not like you have to do it right away.

 

[Roguey]

So what's with engagement then if he's not a fan of real time AoO's?

Tamerlane (among other people) requested it.

I want to make something clear, though: while I make games with a bias toward what I think is good/enjoyable, I do not make games for my own personal tastes. Few game developers working at mid- to large-sized studios have the freedom to drive a development process without catering to an idealized market.

Read the thread. I point out how retarded it is, and Roguey makes an apologetic "but they're not haphazard" remark (whatever that's supposed to mean). In game they're actually a bit different since there's less movement-related retardo (like NWN2 AoOs), but fundamentally the arguments Josh make can be applied to engagement as well.

That was in the past. I was optimistic enough to believe he could make it work, but it didn't happen.

 

[Bubbles]

They don't teleport to a random party member, the AI seems rigged so that shadows will always teleport to a mage.

This is what Sawyer said on the issue on SA:

The AI varies in what it attempts to attack and whether or not it will break Engagement to pursue a preferred target. Some creatures will go for the first target they see, others will use criteria like lowest Endurance or a specific lowest defense (often Deflection). Creatures like trolls will break Engagement to try to get to their preferred targets.

 

[Infinitron]

Do it, Obsidian

 

[Zed]

Do it, Obsidian

YES!

 

[Athelas]

Speaking of tanks...

Meanwhile, the other game that Obsidian is working on, the one where you control big, lumbering tanks, has more mobility and freedom of movement than PoE.

 

[Ninjerk]

Speaking of tanks...

Meanwhile, the other game that Obsidian is working on, the one where you control big, lumbering tanks, has more mobility and freedom of movement than PoE.

Maybe if some of the tanks were melee they'd consider it out of fairness.

 

[Grunker]

Do it, Obsidian

After playing extensively, I believe your solution would be the most annoying thing in this game. Sorry bro. It would be like the current system except in addition to positioning correctly for a lock, you also have to pause at the right moment and initiate lockdown.

Engagement is a fairly minor problem all things told, in this game. It is telling of the combat's strengths that it's my main issue.

 

[Infinitron]

Do it, Obsidian

After playing extensively, I believe your solution would be the most annoying thing in this game. Sorry bro. It would be like the current system except in addition to positioning correctly for a lock, you also have to pause at the right moment and initiate lockdown.

Engagement is a fairly minor problem all things told, in this game. It is telling of the combat's strengths that it's my main issue.

If you don't like it, you don't have to use it, and since it takes time to activate, you can also try to kill the enemy before he manages to use it.

The way I see it, the root problem with engagement isn't that you have to micromanage it - it's the fact that you have to interact with it in places where it's unwanted or doesn't make sense, because it's always on. Why should an ability that's meant for "holding the line" always be on?

 

[Ellef]

So what's with engagement then if he's not a fan of real time AoO's?

Tamerlane (among other people) requested it.

Who is Tamerlane and why does he hold so much sway? I keep hearing him mentioned, poisoning Sawyers mind like some sort of Grima Wormtongue.