Engagement System Questions

[Grunker]

I think it's taking out bullshit and cheesy combat mechanics.

Making interesting decision during combat and not only at its beginning is now "bullshit and cheesy combat mechanics"? Do you even know what I'm saying or have you substituted my points with your own delusion?

The rest of your post is one big strawman. It has nothing to do with what I'm saying. "I like being rewarded for good planning", well gee, that makes you very unique since everybody else hate that.

 

[Mangoose]

But engagement system allows creation of artificial chokepoints everywhere. That is the point. Whoever stuck in enemy chokepoint will lose because it "is like basic strategy 101" indeed.
And, because lockdown happens naturally within first 5 seconds, fights pretty much come down to this: whether you(your damage dealers) avoid being caught or not. Just as simple as that. Binary outcome which mostly depends on initial positioning.

That's kind of the point and why it's basic strategy 101. You try and stabilize the enemy in one place, then try to outflank/outmanuever him. Of course it's limited after that by AI, pathfinding and whatnot, but engagement brings that, for the enemies sure, but mostly for you as well, unlike IE games where you could just walk past everyone and gib the big bad, THEN mop up.

Well do not mind the system, I just I believe the Engagement system goes too far the other way. I just wish it were more balanced so that in-battle choice and improvisation can be done.

Again, I believe IE games go too far one way, and the Engagement system is too extreme in the other direction. Neither is a "bad" mechanic, but I think the middle ground is missed.

Also I really wish for things such as terrain modifiers. I like macromanagement in RTWP, I really do. Making decisions that don't require precise positioning - but still requires thoughtful decisions - works better IMO in a realtime but non-twitch/reflex based game.

It's one thing to flank. It's another thing to set up a correct flank based on a changing situation. If an enemy mage is also squishy, then the decision is simple in sending a flanking unit to take care of him. If an enemy mage has armor, or is in a formation which makes flanking harder and/or coordination with other units to set up the surprise attack, then IMO is fun in an RTT (real time tactics which I think of RTWP in RPGs... a microcosm of a game like Total War). Or maybe you don't even decide to use the typical "tank and flank" maneuver, instead possibly using hit and run, or positioning archers that can pummel enemies that are in tight formation for their own tactical purposes.

Of course, I love mounted archers that have a circling formation. So badass. Again I am aware that I am very much using an example that is very different from a party of distinct 6 characters. I just believe some elements can be applied. Or at least, variations of certain concepts.

That being said, I do think the "slow down" system is a great idea.

 

[Grunker]

I just wish it were more balanced so that in-battle choice and improvisation can be done.

dude, this is just your opinion, there's nothing qualitatively better about making more tactical decisions during a fight

 

[Mangoose]

I just wish it were more balanced so that in-battle choice and improvisation can be done.

dude, this is just your opinion, there's nothing qualitatively better about making more tactical decisions during a fight

Heh. I really like your previous post,

My problem remains that there is no thinking on my feet. No wrenches thrown into my planning. Everything comes down to pre-determined factors. I'm not changing as I go, I'm not reacting to enemy spells cast or abilities used. I'm just waiting until I execute the opening sequence properly.

Basically turning my walls of text into three lines. Kudos.

 

[Roguey]

Sorry if it has been answered earlier but I didn't read the entire thread and I don't want to open a separate topic just for this question:

Can you escape from an unwinabble fight? Can you end the combat without killing all the enemies and/or exit the map?

I was thinking if something like that works: some of the party members become unconscious, have one character lure the enemies away and then become somehow invisible by spell or skill. Will this trigger the end of combat?

No.

I dunno if it's possible with a patch. They'd have to make enemies regenerate all stamina/health, lest people just spam per-encounter powers, retreat, and repeat.

 

[Shevek]

How is "running around with your squishy mage while a monster chases it and you kill it with an archer" deep tactics? Are we suppose to call that emergent IE gameplay? People are way overselling IE movement "tactics." Whats funny is the use of such tactics was dependent on whether or not you willfully ignored the dozens of other, superior, options available to you to end the encounter entirely strategically.

Accidental engagement due to pathing is an AI/pathing issue and not a problem with engagement itself. They just need to consider something like 5foot steps or make engagement only triggers when you leave the engagement radius not when you move 1 pixel.

The one thing I'll say about engagement is that it would be better if enemies used it to varying degrees of success. In other words, some should masterfully trip your tank and go for your squishy. Others should be stupid and occasionally be baited and move without first breaking engagement. This way another layer could be added to differentiate monsters in combat and add more variance to encounter design.

 

[Makagulfazel]

ITT:
Internet neckbeards snidely tell a game developer how to make a better game.
I love how some of the most vocal codex members still manage to use most of their posts to whine about a niche game that not only attempts to cater to their outlandish demands but also manages to be a fuckin' GRAND SLAM. If I was is Anthony's shoes, I'd have a hard time not shitting all over you, too. The engagement system works, you just hate that it doesn't suit your personal preference, making you the equivalent of a back-seat driver. Congrats. Download the mod and float away from your enemies like the old days.

 

[mutonizer]

Making interesting decision during combat and not only at its beginning is now "bullshit and cheesy combat mechanics"? Do you even know what I'm saying or have you substituted my points with your own delusion?

You keep using that word, "interesting", and think it's some kind of magic word that works for everyone the same. Sorry man but "interesting" ranges from skullfucking a 2 years old to reading a book, it's a bit like "fun", it has 6 billions meanings, therefore doesn't mean shit as a whole. IE fights were NOT interesting to me, PoE are. YOUR "interesting" decisions seem, to me, complete bullshit and asking for cheese on the side. But then again, you do it your way, I do it my way. To each his fucking own man.

Well do not mind the system, I just I believe the Engagement system goes too far the other way. I just wish it were more balanced so that in-battle choice and improvisation can be done.

Yea, I consider it as a system still in it's infancy really and it sure can be improved. I like the concept of it and really enjoy what it brings to the table but it's a wee bit too binary and finicky sometimes. Core is good for me though, hopefully they'll improve in small strokes via patches to AI, pathfinding and other things.

 

[Darth Roxor]

ITT:
Internet neckbeards snidely tell a game developer how to make a better game.
I love how some of the most vocal codex members still manage to use most of their posts to whine about a niche game that not only attempts to cater to their outlandish demands but also manages to be a fuckin' GRAND SLAM. If I was is Anthony's shoes, I'd have a hard time not shitting all over you, too. The engagement system works, you just hate that it doesn't suit your personal preference, making you the equivalent of a back-seat driver. Congrats. Download the mod and float away from your enemies like the old days.

sorry for criticising your favourite boysband, sis

 

[Seari]

ITT:
Internet neckbeards snidely tell a game developer how to make a better game.
I love how some of the most vocal codex members still manage to use most of their posts to whine about a niche game that not only attempts to cater to their outlandish demands but also manages to be a fuckin' GRAND SLAM. If I was is Anthony's shoes, I'd have a hard time not shitting all over you, too. The engagement system works, you just hate that it doesn't suit your personal preference, making you the equivalent of a back-seat driver. Congrats. Download the mod and float away from your enemies like the old days.

fuck off retard

 

[Grunker]

Accidental engagement due to pathing is an AI/pathing issue and not a problem with engagement itself.

Purely theoretical argument. Like I said in my opening post, Engagement puts pressure on systems which are already strained to the limit. Sure you could say that in a world with perfect pathing and AI it wouldn't be problematic to the same degree, but there are no games that have that, so the point is hilariously academic.

Furthermore, this ignores the repeated argument that the engagement system demands more control from the player without giving it to him. I don't consider mastering whether I clicked half an inch too much to the left fun, and I highly doubt anyone else does. The engagement system currently penalizes you just as much for clicking a bit too far to one side as it does for making a genuinely poor decision. Making decisions is fun, and executing them takes skill, but when a system demands high precision swift clicking in a system reliant on engine pathing and background identification, those are not fun skills to master.

 

[Grunker]

ITT:
Internet neckbeards snidely tell a game developer how to make a better game.
I love how some of the most vocal codex members still manage to use most of their posts to whine about a niche game that not only attempts to cater to their outlandish demands but also manages to be a fuckin' GRAND SLAM. If I was is Anthony's shoes, I'd have a hard time not shitting all over you, too. The engagement system works, you just hate that it doesn't suit your personal preference, making you the equivalent of a back-seat driver. Congrats. Download the mod and float away from your enemies like the old days.

yeah we sure are whining about this game

Of course you do. There are many interesting choices in combat, they're only impaired by the engagement-system, not utterly crushed by them at all. So far (who knows if it'll hold) it's one of the better combat systems I've played.

Well, I don't mind the system

don't confuse my or sensuki's criticism with roxor's whining, pls

also fuck me if that wasn't the dumbest post i've read in a while, of Bubbles

 

[Shevek]

You are taking relatively a minor issue and inflating its importance. It happens on occaision and I am sure it can be addressed. I played yesterday for a couple hours and it didn't happen once. So, no, a few rare pathing issues doesn't damn the system.

 

[Grunker]

You are taking relatively a minor issue and inflating its importance.

What? Where did I inflate it? I haven't even spoken about the extend to which it mars the combat. Currently all I've said of the combat as a whole is that I like it.

Stop your bullshit fanboy-strawmen and reply directly to the criticism. Jesus. If you can't even handle someone replying to a direct demand for people's criticism of a specific system, reading the internet every day must be hard for you.

 

[Shevek]

So much vitriol. So little sense.

 

[Grunker]

You reap what you sow. Try an actual counterargument to a concrete piece of criticism, maybe that's more like to produce an actual reply.

The fact that you didn't even reply to your own baseless claim that I was "inflating its importance" is revealing enough.

 

[Gord]

Purely theoretical argument. Like I said in my opening post, Engagement puts pressure on systems which are already strained to the limit. Sure you could say that in a world with perfect pathing and AI it wouldn't be problematic to the same degree, but there are no games that have that, so the point is hilariously academic.

It's still no underlying issue of the engagement system itself and much of it could be easily fixed by patches without replacing the engagement system with another one.
Sorry guys, but you are sounding a tad bit on the whiny side here because a game doesn't allow you to play exactly just how you'd like it.

 

[Darth Roxor]

roxor's whining

u wot m8

 

[Grunker]

Purely theoretical argument. Like I said in my opening post, Engagement puts pressure on systems which are already strained to the limit. Sure you could say that in a world with perfect pathing and AI it wouldn't be problematic to the same degree, but there are no games that have that, so the point is hilariously academic.

It's still no underlying issue of the engagement system itself and much of it could be easily fixed by patches without replacing the engagement system with another one.
Sorry guys, but you are sounding a tad bit on the whiny side here because a game doesn't allow you to play exactly just how you'd like it.

Whining is going into every PoE-thread saying "OMG I HATE DIS SO MUCH LOOK AT HOW SHIT IT IS DERP". How the fuck is criticizing engagement in a thread about criticizing engagement "whiny?" It's telling that the sole defense is accusal, it's been like 5 posts now since I've heard an actual argument.

And no, it's not just a fault of those systems, you conviniently ignored the entire second part of the post:

Furthermore, this ignores the repeated argument that the engagement system demands more control from the player without giving it to him. I don't consider mastering whether I clicked half an inch too much to the left fun, and I highly doubt anyone else does. The engagement system currently penalizes you just as much for clicking a bit too far to one side as it does for making a genuinely poor decision. Making decisions is fun, and executing them takes skill, but when a system demands high precision swift clicking in a system reliant on engine pathing and background identification, those are not fun skills to master.

Ayup.

roxor's whining

u wot m8

most of your posts are one-liner variations of "lol look at this game sucking isn't it sucky lol". you remind me of curry when he was on his AoD-spree

 

[Grunker]

In essence, saying Engagement is only problematic because of pathing or AI (besides ignoring the entire margin-of-error criticism) is like saying speeding on the freeway is only problematic because of human frailty. Until all of us are running in Iron Man suits, that argument is nonsensical.

 

[mutonizer]

[..]reply directly to the criticism

Not trying to convince you or have you change your ways, and since most of your criticism is that you just don't "find it interesting" and that "it mars combat" (which by mentioning you didn't talk about yet, just talked about), all I can say is "it doesn't for me" and leave it at that. Now we can nit-pick specific issues with the system as it is, mechanically I mean, but the OP asked for opinions on the system as a whole, especially from people who hated it, he got what he asked for.

My issue is when some people come around and spill their beans as if it was some self evident truth or something. I don't mind that you (or other) comment on what you like and don't like, and explain why and all that. What I mind is when you don't accept that it's YOUR opinion on the subject, especially because if that word starts spreading like by some fucking religious fanatics, then crazy minorities will get more vocals than the rest who don't mind or like it and I personally don't want the system dropped, or changed the way you want (or Sensuki).

don't confuse my or sensuki's criticism with roxor's whining, pls

From someone who apparently hits quick-loads after 5 seconds if things don't go exactly his way...allow me to giggle like a little girl on that for 5 seconds because that sounds EXACTLY like roxor's whining. Now, don't get me wrong, you do what you want I don't care, just don't force me to "Lean to play" you, I hate that.

 

[Mangoose]

What I mind is when you don't accept that it's YOUR opinion on the subject

Is it opinion that Chess is provides more thoughtful mid-game decisions than Checkers? You can directly create a basic compare-and-contrast diagram to depict how things work.

Mid-battle decisions do not preclude thoughtful pre-fight planning. They are not mutually exclusive. This is fact.

My opinion is that IE over-freedom vs PoE engagement are about equal in strength and weaknesses. My opinion is that a system that is in-between will give options to the player throughout the entire battle from opening to endgame.

 

[Grunker]

From someone who apparently hits quick-loads after 5 seconds if things don't go exactly his way

Y'know, I was about to write a whole long raeg-post about how I find you to be the only actual, y'know, full-fledged nutjob idiot in this thread, but then I thought: nah, wait. Here we have himself presenting a clear-cut example of his utter idiocy. See, everything I'm arguing for in this thread has, at its crux, a more diverse and spread out chain of decision-making. One that allows for adaption and prolonged tactical challenges.

You see, for a very long time, I didn't reload at all. I dislike reloading a lot, and so I would play on in each fight if there was even the slightest hope of a turn-around, even if I fucked up initially. And you know what? That's the entire reason for my criticism. Because unlike, for instance, the IE-games, the chances of you playing skillfully and winning a fight "uncleanly" are very low. If the fight starts with one of your fighters in a precarious situation, you simply don't have the tools to skillfully avert the situation.

That's a pity. And it is a pity because combat in this game is really fun. Because once I'm actually in the thick of it, once I didn't get messed up by a random engagement or bad pathfind, I'm actually enjoying the fuck outta myself. That's the entire reason I feel it's sad that the really fun part - the thick of combat - matters less than the arguably less fun part: the initial seconds of precision-positioning.

Now I'll let you get back to throwing your strawmen like "omg it's just your preferences" or taking words like 'interesting' out of context to show HOW IT'S ALL ABOUT TASTE MAN. But the one thing I really don't get here is this:

My issue is when some people come around and spill their beans as if it was some self evident truth or something

I'm putting forth criticism. Some have replied to that actual criticism with actual counterarguments. So forms a discussion. All the above "oh but you're not criticizing mah gaem in the right way" or "you don't mean what you think you mean here let me tell you what you really mean and why that's wrong" is just such a fucking waste of time.

I think my problem in this thread to the extend that I have one, is that I insist on using a high word count to demonstrate what others do in just a single sentence:

Mid-battle decisions do not preclude thoughtful pre-fight planning. They are not mutually exclusive. This is fact.

Such a simple point yet you've been struggling with it for 7 posts now.

My opinion is that IE over-freedom vs PoE engagement are about equal in strength and weaknesses. My opinion is that a system that is in-between will give options to the player throughout the entire battle from opening to endgame.

Based on my experience with the game so far, I would agree with this opinion.

 

[Gord]

Whining is going into every PoE-thread saying "OMG I HATE DIS SO MUCH LOOK AT HOW SHIT IT IS DERP". How the fuck is criticizing engagement in a thread about criticizing engagement "whiny?" It's telling that the sole defense is accusal, it's been like 5 posts now since I've heard an actual argument.

I guess because it usually does sound more like "Combat sucks because engagement is irredeemably shit and I don't like it" instead of e.g. "engagement system currently is broken (to some extend/totally) and needs to be fixed by..."

Engagement system is there, and I guess it's there to stay.
It doesn't give me headaches in the game and I manage to put together some tactics that work reasonably well, sometimes using it to my advantage.
Which is why I don't consider it fundamentally broken or think that the combat is shit because of it.

That doesn't mean it's perfect. There has been some valid criticism about it in here and not even those in favour of it were arguing that it's perfectly implemented.
E.g. complaints about how it overly penalises even small movement (be it due to miss-clicking or because of switching to another nearby target) - but this is something easily fixable.

If you insist on sending your entire party all over the battlefield constantly, well, that sucks of course. In that case you better gid gud adapt to the system instead of trying to brute-force your favourite (but inappropriate) playstyle.

 

[mutonizer]

Mid-battle decisions do not preclude thoughtful pre-fight planning. They are not mutually exclusive. This is fact.

Yea, quite agree here as well.

My opinion is that IE over-freedom vs PoE engagement are about equal in strength and weaknesses. My opinion is that a system that is in-between will give options to the player throughout the entire battle from opening to endgame.

Sure, and hopefully they'll tweak the engagement system a bit to allow for a bit less pixel perfect management but as said before, that might come from other tweaks and indirectly affect engagement mechanics.

That said, unless it's like a big hitter or something, you can disengage already, therefore recovering some freedom of movement and it's not "insta kill" like some say. Heck, now that I'm a bit further in and starting to get decked out, even on PotD and the boosted ACC, my front liners just take it without problems when needed. Still a tactical decision between what I gain and what I lose from doing it, but not a big deal. As for my back-liners, I just don't have them walking around naked with 10 DEF and no backup so unless they get insta gibbed, I can manage and react accordingly.

You see, for a very long time, I didn't reload at all. I dislike reloading a lot, and so I would play on in each fight if there was even the slightest hope of a turn-around, even if I fucked up initially. And you know what? That's the entire reason for my criticism. Because unlike, for instance, the IE-games, the chances of you playing skillfully and winning a fight "uncleanly" are very low. If the fight starts with one of your fighters in a precarious situation, you simply don't have the tools to skillfully avert the situation.

Really have no idea what game you're playing. Apart ONE time where I engaged by mistake some creatures that totally out leveled me and couldn't do anything about it, I've never been confronted with what you're describing.
Not saying you didn't experience things this way, just never encountered it, even a hint of it. I'm only up to Defiance Bay, just got Stronghold, so maybe I'll come back later and agree with that, but so far I just don't see what you're seeing anywhere.

That might be the root of the problem in our back and forth, completely different experience (or maybe just expectations?).