Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

[Dorarnae]

Anyone know if you can steal dark crystal from the last boss, I can't seem to get his equipment off and my thief is lv 67

you can on 3ds but don't think you can on pc. I tried too during beta and wasn't able.

 

[Sam Bixby]

Anyone know if you can steal dark crystal from the last boss, I can't seem to get his equipment off and my thief is lv 67

you can on 3ds but don't think you can on pc. I tried too during beta and wasn't able.

Damn that's some crap, what was the dark crystal for anyways?

 

[Celerity]

It's a decent fixed damage weapon anyone can use that deals +50% damage vs everything, I think it's also a Sub weapon.

 

[Dorarnae]

It's a decent fixed damage weapon anyone can use that deals +50% damage vs everything, I think it's also a Sub weapon.

yeah with very high accuracy if I remember.

 

[Guygrim]

Before I start into this game. There are some things I need to understand about resists and I'm hoping those with more knowledge can fill me in.

What I do know:

• Resists don't stack
• All armor resists and element attack% overwrite weapons even if armor stats are weaker

Yet how does elemental attack% actually affect damage? I couldn't notice this in Elminage Original.

Mage/Cleric/Alchemist resists protect against all spells cast by that school?

What then do the elemental resists protect against? Are these resists added on top of the specific spell school resists?

In particular is there any examples for Holy/Dark attacks that can be resisted or drained, or any of the other elements for that matter? I had two Crescent Cloaks in Original that had 300% dark resist. Yet I didn't even notice any attacks being absorbed or resisted in the final dungeon. Is poison breath a dark attack?

Is there anything worth knowing ahead of time about age? I know each race has different life spans, level up algorithm changes as they get older, and there is the possibility of dying of old age. Is there any in-game actions to avoid or be aware of that exacerbate this?

 

[Dorateen]

Is there anything worth knowing ahead of time about age? I know each race has different life spans, level up algorithm changes as they get older, and there is the possibility of dying of old age. Is there any in-game actions to avoid or be aware of that exacerbate this?

Don't worry about aging. There is a specific trap that occurs on treasure chests, which has the effect of reducing a character's age. So if you detect that "trap", you can have a character who is advanced in age attempt to disarm and fail, thus lowering their age again.

 

[Guygrim]

Dorateen

You're talking about Kiss of the Goddess?

It's funny in Original. When you open it, it says something like "*name* has become a 1 year old". Even though it reduced their age by 1. Hah!

 

[Haplo]

Before I start into this game. There are some things I need to understand about resists and I'm hoping those with more knowledge can fill me in.

What I do know:

• Resists don't stack
• All armor resists and element attack% overwrite weapons even if armor stats are weaker

Yet how does elemental attack% actually affect damage? I couldn't notice this in Elminage Original.

Mage/Cleric/Alchemist resists protect against all spells cast by that school?

What then do the elemental resists protect against? Are these resists added on top of the specific spell school resists?

In particular is there any examples for Holy/Dark attacks that can be resisted or drained, or any of the other elements for that matter? I had two Crescent Cloaks in Original that had 300% dark resist. Yet I didn't even notice any attacks being absorbed or resisted in the final dungeon. Is poison breath a dark attack?

Is there anything worth knowing ahead of time about age? I know each race has different life spans, level up algorithm changes as they get older, and there is the possibility of dying of old age. Is there any in-game actions to avoid or be aware of that exacerbate this?

I don't think elemental attack % actually does anything for weapon based attacks. It does help with spells/item spells/breaths, obviously.

Yes, school resist gives a chance to avoid the effect of a spell from a specific school entirely.
Elemental resists reduce the magnitude of spell effect (like damage or, in case of Dark, also death risk). They are a second line of defense and work separately from school resists, which are a chance to negate spell effect completely.

Poison is a separate element. Quite common (including breath) in at least one dungeon, also a spell effect. For Holy there are some cleric spells which deal that, Elnam comes to mind. Also breath of some good-aligned creatures, including dragons (there's one dungeon that's particularly nasty with that). But definitely not a primary concern, as it's not very common otherwise.
Dark is possibly the most important resist. There are many enemies who breath this. But more importantly all the instant death spells are also Dark-element aligned. AoE mage Argeiss and the various (much more potent) Cleric spells. So it also protects from sudden death from spells (weapon beheading is a separate effect.... good AC tends to be the best defense here).

Regarding aging... well... watch out for races with short lifespans. And avoid dying, as it ages by a year... failing to resurrect and turning to ash is 2 years.
A fairy frontliner without excellent defenses seems like a particularly bad idea. I had a fairy Brawler which was pretty bad... but wanted to replace her eventually anyway with a Devilish, who is immune to curses. Back row fairy Bishop should be fine though. Werebeast aging would need to be closely observed as well, I guess.
Also travelling to/from dungeon and reloading a save advances time... but this will hardly matter before post game.
Generally aging is not a huge concern and the Kiss of the Goddess traps help a lot. Near end-game (before post-game) you can find a fountain that can mutate the race of characters to Devilish, who have very long lifespans.

 

[Guygrim]

Haplo

So the spell school resists are like have a saving throw against those spells, and the elemental resist comes into effect when you lose that saving throw and it will reduce damage.

I just unlocked Originals postgame and will probably grind some chests to see what I can get. You have to beat most of the postgame to play loop 2 of the game. Not sure if I'll go that far yet.

Did get started on mapping the first dungeon in Gothic, I have a graph notebook. Will be my first time mapping so we'll see how that goes.

 

[Haplo]

Ok, so your not going to use the in-game maps/mapping spells?

 

[Guygrim]

When playing Wizardry 1 I didn't map, went purely off of Dumapic and memory. Was much more intense when going deeper into the dungeon.

I would like to experience it differently and this time I'll see how I like doing it by hand with the aid of the spells and maps to avoid confusion when mapping.

 

[Haplo]

There are also magic map items. Single use ones can be bought (stackable up to 10) or looted (in stacks up to... ~50)? They are cheap but inventory slots are VERY scarce.
You can find a reusable one (breaks after some uses, but can be fixed with an alchemy spell) and eventually late-game even a permanent one.

Or you can cheat and make regular magic maps permanent, like myself. I suck at spatial awareness though.

 

[Guygrim]

Good to know, that should all make it easier to map if I run into issues.

I just want to see if I like the process of creating a map by hand.

 

[Guygrim]

I'm changing out my Bishop with a Mage. Although really convenient, I'm tired of having a hamstrung party with his slow butt barely contributing.

Long term plan I'll make a character that knows all 3 spell schools and then make them into a Shaman.

Screw the Bishop.

 

[Haplo]

Eh, Bishop is okay - but as the final class, rather then the initial class IMO. That way he would know all spells much faster (possibly also alchemy) and still have 9 casts per spell level of both mage and cleric spells.

Shaman will only have 3 slots/spell level.
A Hunter would at least inherit 9 slots/spell level from prior Alchemist class.

 

[arcenierin]

After doing some serious searching for Wizardry-likes, I stumbled upon Elminage: Gothic. Most of the reviews were split - people were either in love with the game, or they played it a bit and stormed off in a huff. I decided to give it a look.

This game is -everything- I was looking for in a game. Legit. I feel like I'm finally coming home after spending a couple of decades adrift.

I've finished the grotto and have made it a little ways into the tree. I'm debating shelving this party and starting fresh, as I've spent the past couple of days making my way through this thread and have decided my initial choices for setup were...a bit less than optimal. Anyone wanna volunteer to keep track of how many noob mistakes I made? Let's go!

Level 13 Dragonnewt Fighter - Mysterious Bag - great STR, HP, and VIT. Really, really marginal stats, otherwise.
Level 10 Werebeast Brawler - Cruelty - High STR, AGI, and VIT. Okay-ish HP.
Level 6 Elf Samurai. Cruelty. Multiclassed out of Mage > Fighter > Samurai. Terrible HP; okay-ish stats. Only character with Diomente.
Level 11 Werebeast Alchemist > Mysterious Bag. Yes, poor decisions were made.
Level 13 Dragonnewt Thief - Song of Healing. Don't judge me. Great stats, decent HP. Poor EX-skill. Meh.
Level 11 Dwarf Valk - Hand of Kindness. Decent stats. Alright HP.

All these characters were rolled at minimum age. Yeah. I know.

I -could- probably salvage this party, to an extent, but honestly...meh. They're low enough level that rebuilding won't take a super long time.
I'm going to see what I can do to acquire some of Aweigh's quality of life mods. Strong work, by the way!
I'm particularly interested in the series of changes he made to the EX skills - granting many of them to classes as innate abilities, and allowing Summoner to pick up Identify.

I have this thread bookmarked, and I look forward to keeping everyone apprised of my progress!

 

[Dorateen]

If you are going to create new characters to start with, Brace is a good skill to have. Maybe its personal taste, but I like the idea of being knocked down to 0 hp, and still be able to keep fighting. You will be running into enemies who have this ability, so might as well include it on one of your front-line party members.

 

[arcenierin]

One thing I noticed when prowling this thread: a few people mentioned that taking a pure mage all the way up might be cool, in theory, once you were able to get them kitted out with top shelf gear. Nobody reported back that they had actually -tried- doing so. I'm tempted to take a swing at it.

Consider this an official solicitation - I'd love y'alls thoughts on going the distance with mage.

In not exactly related news -

My new party:

Human Fighter // Male // Brace
Dwarf Samurai // Male // Mysterious Bag (-someone- needed it! I'd rather go with brace, but wanted all these other skills)
Dwarf Cleric // Male // Chi Wave (Hadoken!)
Hotlet Thief // Male // Level Drain (Drain is for late game; if y'all shoot down mage's viability I'll have a summoner, so...)
Human Alchemist // Male // Divination (May park this guy someday - mainly keeping because forging is so necessary)
Elf Mage // Female // Spirit Contract (may grow into a multi-class caster // summoner)

I don't have a great sense of which characters I should keep innocent. If there is not a significant benefit, gear wise, to remaining innocent on my 3 casters, I'll likely bounce them around each caster class before parking them back at their respective source classes.

I'd love feedback from more experienced players at this point; I'd rather adjust things sooner than later if adjustments are needed.

Also, I've looked, but I can't seem to find a semi-recent link to aweigh's modifications. I'd be really interested if someone had a copy of his EX-skill revisions (where he tied them to classes) or his modified monster loot tables (where normal enemies had loot to steal). If they're tied to the enemy ac and hp revisions, I'll learn to live with that; it -does- sorta make sense to ramp the difficult a bit to compensate for powering up the classes. As you can see above, those modifications would do a long ways towards improving my EX-skill situation.

If, for whatever reason, aweigh's modification files aren't available, I'll probably go under the hood and make the adjustments myself before all is said and done. Downside to that is I'll have to spend a fair amount of time covering ground he's already covered.

 

[Haplo]

About that pure mage.
I did that - kinda. I left the game for now with my Mage at level 134. And not any mage - a monster Don Mag turned adventurer. Meanning he has a host of resists and immunities (90% Paralyze, Charm, Petrify & Behead, 75% rest; 50% resist Fire & Water; 80% Status Recovery), but also built-in Fire & Water 300% boost plus Thunder, Holy & Dark 200% boost. At that level he has a 62% boost to the effectiveness of his spells. He also has Mark of Ruin for another +50% damage. In retrospect, its pretty annoying.
I kinda wish he were multiclassed to a Bishop instead. Sure, sometimes it was very cool to eliminate whole enemy caster back row with a single spell. And he's very usefull to nuke certain nasty enemies, in particular Belial (when he can get trough his Magic Resist). But the spell I ended up using the most at the final dungeon is... Robuti to raise enemy AC and make them easy pickings for my frontliners. It ignores resistance and he doesn't exactly need all those elemental boosts for that.
And identifications would be very usefull. And so would be the cleric spells. Doubly so, as my main healer is a Valkyrie (without Hand of Kindness even), with some support from Summoner (former Cleric/Mage) and 3 slots of (only) 7th level Cleric spells on the Don Mag.
But it's too late for that now. I won't train a new character. Also Don Mag would loose all of his special racial traits if I changed his class.
Note I did not finish the game - so far. The grind became a bit much for me, particularly if I wanted to poke-ball my target summon, the StarGazer. Most other enemies at the final dungeon are almost impossible to capture fair and square. Stargazer should be doable... once my Summoner hits level 170.
I somehow reached level 18 of the Tower, but it also became a bit much of a random result - whether I win and can go further or need a reload. So I'd also need to grind some to beat the high-level enemies. Levels would help a lot, particularly on the Ninja and Brawler, due to their level AC bonuses. Would make hitting enemies easier and boost all HP.

Regarding your party:
Fighter: why exactly human? Seems like a Dragonnewt would be better... or a Dwarf... or a Werebeast. Brace is good, it actually interrupts and stops enemy attack sequence (if enemy has 2 attack flurries or more) but...
Samurai: why Dwarf? 6 max Int will limit his damage spell potential. Of course, it probably won't be his focus, but it seems like a Werebeast or a Dragonnewt would be a better bet. Mysterious Bag... Well I consider it a necessity, but I also like giving Brace to my Samurai. He's a good defender character at late levels due to his Swallow Return counters triggering at random, negating enemy attacks and dealing damage. But they won't always trigger, 50% max, realistically maybe around 30% at high level, so Brace gives him an extra chance to survive - and trigger the parry-counter on next enemy attack. Also... at the final dungeon you''ll really want someone with Swallow Killer Ex skill (sadly costs SP to use), as many dangerous enemies Swallow Return themselves (and often Behead and do other nasty stuff). Although Chi Wave and spells are some alternative.
Dwarf Cleric, Chi Wave - sounds good, but maybe you'd want to teach him other spell schoold before dedicating his career to the Cleric class?
Hotlet Thief. Ok, I understand you're set on Stealing after level 26? Otherwise a Ninja would be better IMO (Beheading Ahoy + Vigilance 50% enemy ambush avoidance is pretty great). Or a Hunter (Bows are somewhat sucky IMO, but Pursuit/Sweep are pretty sweet). Or even a Bard (CC spells, duh). Life Drain I haven't used, so I can't comment on. Description doesn't sound so hot when enemies are level 100+, but I believe Aweigh said some good things about it, so it must have its uses.
Human Alchemist - sure you don't want to teach him some other spell schools first? An Alchemist is a pretty passive class, I often wished I had a dragonnewts fire breath or something. Divination - one of the most useless EX skill, IMO. When in the crafing menu, you'll see the ore AP anyway. Mysterious Bag candidate?
Elf Mage - okay. After my experience I think I'd take Magic Essence instead. CC was more important then nuking - for me. I'd also consider a Fairy to maximize the chances of going first. Then again, they tend to die real fast. Summoner is really nice if you put the effort to capture good monsters (and maybe you make some of them into uber-party members), but again, a very passive class. I often wished he had a dragonnewt breath or something to do.

IMO don't worry about Innocent status. You can generally find better stuff. It's a non issue IMO.

 

[Dorateen]

One thing I noticed when prowling this thread: a few people mentioned that taking a pure mage all the way up might be cool

I also went with a pure mage. To get that Magic Spell Power Up +1, and deal over 1,000 hp of damage at the highest levels.

 

[arcenierin]

About that pure mage.
Regarding your party:
Fighter: why exactly human? Seems like a Dragonnewt would be better... or a Dwarf... or a Werebeast. Brace is good, it actually interrupts and stops enemy attack sequence (if enemy has 2 attack flurries or more) but...

I chose human because human offers a well-rounded set of stats for str, vit, agi, and luck. Specifically, I like that humans can reach a decently high max str (18) while also maintaining an attractive agi (18). I'll have several options for hitting hard; I wanted a character that would hit hard sooner than later.

Samurai: why Dwarf? 6 max Int will limit his damage spell potential. Of course, it probably won't be his focus, but it seems like a Werebeast or a Dragonnewt would be a better bet. Mysterious Bag... Well I consider it a necessity, but I also like giving Brace to my Samurai. He's a good defender character at late levels due to his Swallow Return counters triggering at random, negating enemy attacks and dealing damage. But they won't always trigger, 50% max, realistically maybe around 30% at high level, so Brace gives him an extra chance to survive - and trigger the parry-counter on next enemy attack. Also... at the final dungeon you''ll really want someone with Swallow Killer Ex skill (sadly costs SP to use), as many dangerous enemies Swallow Return themselves (and often Behead and do other nasty stuff). Although Chi Wave and spells are some alternative.

I avoided Werebeast here because I didn't want a certain notorious PITA powering up off accidental counterattacks. I selected Dwarf rather than Dragonnewt because I didn't care for the additional xp penalty associated with the race. Upon reflection, youre right - statistically, Dragonnewt would likely have been a stronger selection. I may re-roll this character and put mysterious bag on another character.

Dwarf Cleric, Chi Wave - sounds good, but maybe you'd want to teach him other spell school before dedicating his career to the Cleric class?

I should really review the loot table to see if there is -any- reason to keep this character pure.

Hotlet Thief. Ok, I understand you're set on Stealing after level 26? Otherwise a Ninja would be better IMO (Beheading Ahoy + Vigilance 50% enemy ambush avoidance is pretty great). Or a Hunter (Bows are somewhat sucky IMO, but Pursuit/Sweep are pretty sweet). Or even a Bard (CC spells, duh). Life Drain I haven't used, so I can't comment on. Description doesn't sound so hot when enemies are level 100+, but I believe Aweigh said some good things about it, so it must have its uses.

If nothing else, I'd like the -option- to steal. I can always change him to a ninja down the line.

Human Alchemist - sure you don't want to teach him some other spell schools first? An Alchemist is a pretty passive class, I often wished I had a dragonnewts fire breath or something. Divination - one of the most useless EX skill, IMO. When in the crafing menu, you'll see the ore AP anyway. Mysterious Bag candidate?

I'm on the fence here. Long-term, the better play is definitely mysterious bag. Divination is really there to boost my early going by making fewer mining attempts result in rocks. I may well end up retiring this guy at some point to take on a more diversified caster, but I'll carry him for a long time if only because I want to get a competent smith up.

Elf Mage - okay. After my experience I think I'd take Magic Essence instead. CC was more important then nuking - for me. I'd also consider a Fairy to maximize the chances of going first. Then again, they tend to die real fast. Summoner is really nice if you put the effort to capture good monsters (and maybe you make some of them into uber-party members), but again, a very passive class. I often wished he had a dragonnewt breath or something to do.

I understand. I'm really trying to set up this character to get a grasp on how viable a REAL ULTIMATE POWER caster can be. Sooner than later, I'm going to have to make some hard decisions about how I want my party caster composition to be structured. I expect to have a better idea by the time I hit lesser demons; I'll be able to regain lost time pretty swiftly at that point.

IMO don't worry about Innocent status. You can generally find better stuff. It's a non issue IMO.

Fair enough; do others tend to agree with this stance? Would simplify my caster woes a little if I could swing a couple of these casters thru all the schools before I continue...

For reference, I've completed the grotto and the tree now and am working my way thru the mines. The above party is all sitting more or less at level 14.

 

[Haplo]

Regarding the Fighter: Fair enough. But then the Werebeast has very balanced stats, which are all 1 point higher then human (including Agi, Vit and Str). Well, except Luck, but who cares on a Fighter?
Max stat of 18 isn't that hot, when you realize stats only give positive modifiers above 15. Human Fighter @18 Str will have a +15% damage modifier, a Dragonnewt @22 Str. will have +35% damage.
On the positive side, human gets the most experience, so he may have a (very slight) level - and thus accuracy - advantage.

On Thief vs Ninja: I didn't mention one other HUGE Ninja advantage: he gets -1AC every 3 levels. That is eventually a HUGE boon (admittedly in the post game, mostly). Brawlers get the same bonus (but have FAR inferior equipment except the weapons), so these 2 classes eventually become the best tanks.


On Divination: getting rocks now and then is really not a big deal IMO (particularly if you have Mysterious Bag). There are TONS of mining spots and they respawn. Most of the ores you find will be trashcan material anyways.
And Alchemist: A level 26 one is a must IMO for equipment upgrades without loosing valuable ores (I parked mine around level 30 in the tavern). Can really benefit from a high level end-game Alchemist, they are game-changers (mostly AC bonuses: -2/even-3 on EACH piece of armor is HUGE for your defense), but it takes a lot of dedication and time.


One last comment is that if you want to devote the time and effort into creating monster adventurers, you can keep your current party going and eventually exchange individual characters with captured summons. Some of them are really powerful and have traits not available to normal races.

 

[aweigh]

gotta say i can't even imagine beating Ibag's Tower without a high level Alchemist squeezing every drop out of each +1 and +2 ore you can manage to find.

not saying it can't be done, but it would require utilizing extremely boring party compositions... or an extremely high overall party level. it's just not the way the designers envisioned players doing things, I'd be willing to bet.

in fact the necessity for Alchemists is my only true complaint for Starfish's Elminage games and after spending literally thousand(s) hours on their games, I conclude that:

- Starfish's integration of Wizardry mechanics would be completely perfect if Alchemy enchantment/transmutation was something handled by a town NPC and was not part of a character class.

There, that is literally the only place where I think Starfish might possibly improve on their game mechanics. I still maintain Starfish are probably the best RPG game devs I've ever seen in terms of overall itemization/character/game balance. No other RPG game series (or RPG games) made by any other long-standing RPG studio even comes close to them.

I was worried for a stretch that they might be going under but the recent 3ds english localization of elminage: Original has assuaged my fears for now. If it had been a 1:1 script copy of the PSP release I would still worry but I've been playing thru the 3ds port and the script was overhauled/corrected quite a bit.

this is good.

 

[aweigh]

reason to keep pure mage: higher damage dealt via spells, and higher % chance of landing status effects on enemies. this might seem trivial but when you start fighting shit like Stargazers and realize the best way to deal with them is to crowd-control via status spells, or even earlier when you realize the easiest method of pacifying a Skillving is landing a confusion spell... well, then this slightly higher % to land a status effect suddenly becomes much less trivial.

edit: yes I know confusion is from the alchemy spell school.

reason to keep pure cleric: higher amount of hit-points healed and higher % chance of their death spells "landing" on enemies. copy/paste the same shit I wrote above about mages and post-game enemies and apply it to clerics; now add:
- higher success rate to revive allies both in and out of combat (i.e. not have them turn to ashes, thus allowing you to continue exploring Ibag's Tower without having to go back to town).
- pure clerics are the only Divine Magic class that is allowed 100% damage dealt on their IMMOLARATI spell, which is the most damaging spell in the game and, when combined with a MIRACLE spell, the only way to even remotely attempt to cheese a boss encounter.

first time I truly cleared all 20 floors of Ibag's Tower I went thru a major party change when I realized 2 things:

1) my lord wasn't dealing enough melee damage so I ended up changing to a Fighter, something I never in my life imagined would be happening.
2) ended up turning my bishop into a cleric for the reasons outlined above; they outweighed the utility of on-the-spot identification.

i never thought my post-game party would include 2 basic classes but there you go, they ended up being very useful.

edit: oh, I also ended up realizing that the Samurai's swallow-return is probably the single most useful death-preventing class ability in the game.

in 2nd place I put Brace.

in 3rd place (in terms of utility during battle) I place CHI WAVE because it deals physical damage and functions as an L-ranged "melee attack" which does not trigger counters from the enemy.

also I would not have been able to "get away" with having a Lord-less party if not thanks to my high-level Alchemist character and extensive preparation in terms of gear enchantment in order to have everyone have decent defenses versus beheading and other nasty stuff.

without a good Alchemist to properly outfit everybody's gear I would have needed to keep my Lord around because of their Sanctuary skill.

...all things considered though there really isn't that much need for a pure mage in Elminage: Gothic because in the post-game all the enemies shrug off direct-damage and, unlike pure Clerics, a Mage's "end game" spell which is MIRACLE has the same utility when cast by any other class.

 

[Celerity]

I wouldn't consider endgame Mage for the simple reason that seemingly every other mid and high level encounter has an enemy that spams the spell reflection ability constantly, provided they'd otherwise be a good target for spells in the first place.