Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

[Jasede]

I am hitting my first difficulty bump.

I have the Grotto, the Tree and the Mines unlocked, but all these areas are really hard. I think I should clear the optional areas in the Grotto first, but it's really a drag to trek all the way through the lake, and then have to walk all the way back... Malor can't come soon enough. But my Mage is only level 11!

Do you have any advice for until I learn a teleport spell? Dying to a 1% (or whatever it is) Critical Strike by those weak-ass mobs or having all 4 Lizardmen decide my Alchemist's ass looks mighty fine to put spears inside makes even exploring the (relatively) easy Grotto hard.

If I try to actively use spells, then the return trip becomes really tedious. I've never done this before but maybe I should consider using the Honey something spell to go back to town; the return trip with no spells left is extremely tough and last time I barely made it out with a 1 HP Fighter and 2 heavily beaten up Ninja & Mage pair that were carrying their friends while trying to run from monsters. And I ran out of Magic Maps by then for extra fun. Somehow made it.

 

[Courtier]

You relearn Honey Restorer on levelup. Thus, it's a good idea to use it after a long trek deep inside a dungeon when you're sure to have gotten enough exp for a level. Might as well use it before Diomente makes it redundant

 

[Jasede]

I am considering renaming the spells to Wizardry 1 names for fun.

 

[Haplo]

You can protect your strategic party members (such as Alchemist) with a low AC character with the Defend command.
And like Courtier wrote, using Honey Restorer is okay when you think you need it. You'll get it back. Plus all your casters with cleric spells (so this includes Valk, Lord and eventually Bishop) will have it... eventually.

 

[Jasede]

I made it to the church! I am doing well there, relatively. I am considering fighting in there for a while to get some equipment from chests.
Alternatively I can explore the grotto and the tree now, I should be more than ready.

 

[aweigh]

Why wouldn't I just make everyone a Werebeast or Dragonewt? They seem optimal.

Can I save in dungeons? So far I have been playing wizardry-style, saving only between expeditions. I heard you age if you reload in a dungeon.

Jasede

Do you really think so little of Starfish? lewl.

1) The "optimal" races, such as Werebeasts, come with restrictions that limit their access to Equipment (Werebeasts specifically cannot equip Silver-material gear).

2) The better the race the shorter their "life span". Your characters will (probaly) never actually die during a playthrugh from old age (although it is 100% possible, theoretically); but once the Race reaches their "age limit", their Level Up dice-rolls for gaining Attribute points will begin coming up "snake eyes" and the older then the higher the chance that they'll get a bad Level Up dice-roll that will lower their Attributes. It's... very annoying.

(Continuing w/ Werebeast example: on top of their short life span, plus their Equipment restrictions, that +20% built-in chance to Poison the enemy on attack will become a huge liability in end-game/post-game. Starfish is so fucking GENIUS LEVEL at designing these games that they thought ahead and made one of the char-gen Ex-Skills called "Drunken Fist", which automatically raises by unknown amounts a Poisoned character's physical strength.

First, think about how much your party members get poisoned during the 200 hours of E: Gothic play time; and now "know this": end-game/post-game enemies come w/ Drunken Fist which means the inability to remove a Werebeasts native +20% chance to Poison will suddenly become a liability in specific enocunters. It's not somethng game-changing, bt I'm merely pointing out the degree of depth Starfish infused the lovely interplay between races, classes, itemization, and monster/encounter design.)

P.S. As for Dwarves? They can't equip a fair few numbre of really good 2-handed weaons. Why? Because their fucking small. Those weapons are big.

Dragonewts are locked out of some very choice items as well, etc. The game is the most balanced (in a PROPER WAY, not in a Sawyerish non-Balancing way); it is the most balanced RPG I have ever played.

I love Elminage so much.

EDIT: DUDE I DON'T KNOW HOW LISTS WORK, OK. BACK OFF.

 

[aweigh]

Jasede

In my current/new playthroughs of E: Original and/or E: Gothic I have stopped rolling a Mage for my beginning party. I figure the following: I always make sure to snag a Samurai, (only Class I'll waste time re-rolling BP to get when starting a game); Samurai gain the same exact spells as a Mage, although obviously they don't get the increased Mage Class-only "Magic Bonus" ability which makes a Mage's status-spell have higher chance to land, and, obviously, the ability increases their damage output from spells-- but, I'm getting side-tracked:

- The beginning is much harder without access to Mage "nukes", but once you get the hang of the game you'll welcome the challenge

- In terms of power-gaming, i.e. calculating your perfectly optimized party down to which Level each character will change Classes and whatnot, the primary reason to start a beginning party w/ a Mage is to get Diomante (Teleport) as fast as possible (they get it at Level 13); same as with Clerics but Clerics fare much, much better than Mages because:

- Clerics have actual martial ability and Clerics can equip decent Weapons and decent Armours; and to top it off the key Cleric spell (Rizefus, the resurrection spell), well Clerics get that spell at like Level 8 or so, and finally:

- Clerics get Honey Restorer super early and it is really the only spell you truly need for "fast traveling" during the early-game. The Samurai will learn Diomante (Teleport) at around Level 22 or something, but while you're waiting all you need to do is make sure that every time you go to a Dungeon just make sure the Cleric gains 1 Level Up in order to make 100% you can Honey Retorer (Loktofeit, btw) back to town and he'll re-learn it immediately when you go to sleep.

So, uh, I guess I'm saying a pure Mage is good, as landing status spells on post-game enemies sometimes seems impossible unless they come from a high level Mage, but in the end the thing that "makes the Class" so to speak is Diomante; and there's no real need to get Diomante super fast except only if you simply want the convenience of having it. For early-game, Honey Restorer (w/ careful planning of the dungeon visit), is all you need.

All that said you need Diomante, full-stop. Samurai, Mage, whoever learns it. Why? Because it makes grinding Ore/Fixed Encounters super fast. Teleport yourself to the same spot (or a few squares away, whatever), and BOOM, the Ore/Fixed Encounters all respawned.

Makes grinding the Volcano Samurais much easier in order to fucking get the fucking katana "Masamune", which only drops from 1 spcific enemy in the entire game and it's drop rate is super low. (I know, I've studied the game's treasure spreadsheet extensively).

Oh, and remember that genders also affect access to gear!

 

[Jasede]

I'd like to see this treasure drop spreadsheet!

 

[aweigh]

sure thing, lemme upload it to Dropbox

 

[Haplo]

Personally I wouldn't relate tie Life span with combat effectiveness. Dragonnewts and Elves have the longest span and make excellent characters.
Dwarves live long as well.

Conversely Fairies have shortest life expectancy and are next to useless in most professions cause of awful equipment choice. Maybe except Bishop - he doesn't get anything good anyways.

Samurais should learn Diomente at level 16, same as Bards, so certainly a valid choice.

aweigh,
Are you sure equipment drops are connected to enemy type? My understanding was that they were only tied to Dungeon+Floor.

 

[aweigh]

Jasede

Dropbox link (Several Elminage: Gothic .csv/.xls files, which require Excel or the free-ware program I use called "Libra Calc"):
- https://www.dropbox.com/s/1d8gs11hfu5ttmm/ELMINAGE-GOTHIC-SPREADSHEETS.zip?dl=0

Since Dropbox kind of sucks, here is the same .zip but from my FireDrop account:
- http://frd.li/441085921de28f4ab6b6a09b27c0b625

 

[aweigh]

BTW

I included:

- ITEM.csv (full item spreadsheet).
- all 3 of the MONSTER.csv spreadsheets.
- ITEM_HELP = List of which items can be "used" in battle to trigger a spell/ability.
- SPELL_MP = spreadsheet table that shows the progression of spell learning for each Class/Race.
- CHARMPLT.csv = spreadsheet that shows all of the races (and, btw, remember there are hidden Races to unlock); and also shows all of their values (racial attributes, etc, etc).
- EXP_PROG.csv = XP table. Watch in awe exactly how slow a Fairy Ninja will level! Be amazed at how a Dragonewt Samurai will reach that "Diomante Level" like, 30 hours later than a counter-part Human Samurai! Hehehe.
- ITEM_SP.csv = spreadsheet displaying what items contain special shit that can be "Invoked" (destroys the item).

So, you can also edit every single one of every single value in any of the files. Want to change a Fairy's Agility from 14 Maximum down to 10, and distribute those "extra" 4 points over to her Vitality? Why not, do it! Have fun. Simply change the numbers, save the file, and place any edited .csv/.xls file in the game's Directory (where the .executable is at). The game will then use the that file first and ignore the default file(s).

The reason I included so many files is because you need to know what each value means. The Treasure Table says stuff like:

- Tsun-Kun Cave / 1 / (0) (1) (14) (20) (21) (etc)

Each one of the numbers I put in parenthesis represent an item from the ITEM.csv file. Each item is numbred, and for exapmle: Lightning Sword is number 16, Longsword is 1, etc. So that's how you know what eac floor's treasures contain: by comparing w/ the ITEM.csv file.

Have fun

EDIT: Oh, also included the RACE.csv file, which shows the age ranges.

EDIT x2: Here's a link to my edited MONSTER1/2/3.csv files for when you want to really feel the pain:

- https://firedrop.com/f869978b799bcaf6764dfe0af494757b

Those fuckers are rocking 2x Hit Dice, and 1.5x Turn HP Recovery. I did relent and lower by 5% the "Summon Resistance" chances because otherwise any enemy w/ 100% Summon Resistance cannot be poke-captured by your party's Summoner unless the party has a Brawler. I think that's a design flaw. I made the 100% ones down to 95%.

I *think* I also upgraded a few of the post-game enemies weapon inventories, but it's been a while since I played so maybe those files have the different enemy inventories or maybe not. In any case, you can change that shit yourself very easily: Monster inventories begin at Spreadsheet Column 320 or so (aronud there), and their inventory is represented by the same ITEM.csv numbers: i.e. the town's Training Hall Knight (who carries aLongsword) his inventorybegins with a "1", then the following numbre down is his helmet, then his armor, etc.

It's super easy. You'll figure it out.

 

[Courtier]

Or just check the Jap wiki drop tables...use google translate

 

[aweigh]

Courtier

Yes, but the japanese Wiki drop tables only say where an item will drop. Looking at the treasure sheet lets you know at the exact probability of it dropping (example: the jap wiki says the Masamune is "rare", but unlike other rare drops the Masamune is only contanied in one (1) single treasure chest drop. That goes beyond rare. Just pointing this out for clarification.

 

[aweigh]

Haplo

You're right, I brain-farted, letm e explain:

- drops are tied to dungeon floors, just like Wizardry.

- The floor where that katana drops mainly contains Samurais as "fixed encounters", so I mentally connected the two eventualities.

EDIT: oh, while I agree that Dwarves are EXCELLENT as a race (I would actually go so far sa to say an all Dwarf party would probably be the most numerically balanced one; although not optimized); keep in mind that Dwarves miss out on the game's best Spears, like the God Slayer, along with other few tihngs.

And, of course, the XP Progression table. For a Class (ex: Alchemist) where what you want is to reach highest char Level as fast as possible in order to get their Mastery Skill(s), then an "advanced" Race wll level muuuuuuuuuuch slower than a Human.

Human Thief can almost double the level he/she will be at by the time the party is inside Ibag's Tower, as a example (although for a Thief there's no pressing need to be high level fast, unlike say, a Lord, where you want his Mastrey Skill as fast as fucking possible).

Race and Class each have progressoin XP routes, and a slow XP race coupled w/ slow XP Class, like say a Devilish Ninja... welp, he'll level much slower. That's all.

That was a bad example though: Spel-castnig classes are more muddled because you want their spells ASAP, but humans are the worst pick for a Caster-type. And Elves havebuilt-in +20% spell resistance, etc.

The game is very layered.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Started playing yesterday. Got to the church this morning. After much dicking around with various classes, I've concluded that Brawlers are OP as fuck, at least early game. As is forging. 3 brawlers on the front line with hp recovery gear turned the first dungeon into a total joke. Still need to go back and poke around the last few missing spots on the bottom floor (especially want to sneak past the uber monster that gibbed 2 guys in one turn and forced an early retreat on a previous run) but near as I can tell, the dungeon itself has no loot, only encounters? Rest of the party is thief (seems mandatory because chest traps are inane and chests are the only real source of loot) bishop and alchemist. Also, there seems to be a massive wall in xp as soon as you hit level 8. Class and stats don't seem to influence hp nearly as much as I was expecting them to. Seems to mostly be about the special abilities of classes and their equipment. Brawlers have by far the best combat abilities to begin with (I'm guessing ninjas get the bullshit multi attack skill too?) and equipment is piss weak right now anyways so I couldn't care less about not being able to wield some shitty claymore. Alchemist spells seem really fucking good too. Things like instant party escape at low levels, extra attacks per round and and other major buffs/debuffs. I suppose bishop is only getting the lower tier spells but even so it's pretty lackluster. I'd probably ditch him if not for the need for identify.

 

[Jasede]

Actually retired (and deleted) my brawler because my Fighter does more damage ~church and hits far, far more often.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Really? How much is he hitting for? Mine consistently hit for ~30 each turn, frequently doubling that and occasionally going ballistic and pumping out over 100. When I tried a fighter early on it was only hitting for 20ish, and whiffing plenty of attacks besides, which the monks basically never do. Actually, the fighter was hitting for single digit damage, because longswords are garbage. It was the valk hitting for 20ish before I junked her. I suppose she'd be landing 40 by this point if she gets extra attacks at the same pace as the brawlers. Assuming she actually hits things.

 

[Courtier]

You will need a Brawler to swap in if you want certain summons later. Their Clean Hit after a combo lowers all enemy resistances by 20% for the following action in that turn which is the only way to contract high/100% resist monsters with your Summoner (nothing else affects sum res).

With a high level brawler, you're going to get a ton of clean hits. Remember that only the 4th hit can be one and generates a special message (fainted). Unequip their fist weapons to have them do as little damage as possible, disable the monster (petrification/paralysis) and punch away. Have your other dudes run away, they're not doing anything. Set turn order (page up-key on keyboard, I prefer using a gamepad by the way) Brawler=>Summoner. Once you're all set for the punchings, it's just a matter of using the repeat action command until you succeed with the contract. It helps if the monster regenerates.

Note about monster adventurers: if you change classes, they will lose their innate abilities such as behead and resistances, but not their spellcasts. This limits them quite a bit, though I really only get mon-adventurers for the portraits+devilish race. Jap wiki lists what classes monsters turn into when turning them into PCs

When the Summoner gets his high mastery skill your summons start getting ridiculously powerful. Turning summons into adventurers with Spirit Pact is not necessary but has perks such as the devilish race, innate resists/misc traits/ailment on hit/spells, and the portrait. A Summoner can use Spirit Pact on another Summoner's creature, leaving your main one free to take an actually useful Ex Skill.

 

[aweigh]

Fighter does most dmg out of all Classes. that's his/her "thing". Fighters do 1 tihng and 1 tihng only: access to almost every weapon/armor, and hit hardest when using them.

If Lords didn't have their Mastery Skill of "Court Sancturay", I would 100% use instead a Cleric -> Fighter character. Much more dmg and more HP.

 

[Dorarnae]

Haplo

You're right, I brain-farted, letm e explain:

- drops are tied to dungeon floors, just like Wizardry.

- The floor where that katana drops mainly contains Samurais as "fixed encounters", so I mentally connected the two eventualities.

EDIT: oh, while I agree that Dwarves are EXCELLENT as a race (I would actually go so far sa to say an all Dwarf party would probably be the most numerically balanced one; although not optimized); keep in mind that Dwarves miss out on the game's best Spears, like the God Slayer, along with other few tihngs.

And, of course, the XP Progression table. For a Class (ex: Alchemist) where what you want is to reach highest char Level as fast as possible in order to get their Mastery Skill(s), then an "advanced" Race wll level muuuuuuuuuuch slower than a Human.

Human Thief can almost double the level he/she will be at by the time the party is inside Ibag's Tower, as a example (although for a Thief there's no pressing need to be high level fast, unlike say, a Lord, where you want his Mastrey Skill as fast as fucking possible).

Race and Class each have progressoin XP routes, and a slow XP race coupled w/ slow XP Class, like say a Devilish Ninja... welp, he'll level much slower. That's all.

That was a bad example though: Spel-castnig classes are more muddled because you want their spells ASAP, but humans are the worst pick for a Caster-type. And Elves havebuilt-in +20% spell resistance, etc.

The game is very layered.

hey I roll human caster, I prefer them over elf. mainly because of the hp gain on lvl up.

 

[Dorarnae]

Started playing yesterday. Got to the church this morning. After much dicking around with various classes, I've concluded that Brawlers are OP as fuck, at least early game. As is forging. 3 brawlers on the front line with hp recovery gear turned the first dungeon into a total joke. Still need to go back and poke around the last few missing spots on the bottom floor (especially want to sneak past the uber monster that gibbed 2 guys in one turn and forced an early retreat on a previous run) but near as I can tell, the dungeon itself has no loot, only encounters? Rest of the party is thief (seems mandatory because chest traps are inane and chests are the only real source of loot) bishop and alchemist. Also, there seems to be a massive wall in xp as soon as you hit level 8. Class and stats don't seem to influence hp nearly as much as I was expecting them to. Seems to mostly be about the special abilities of classes and their equipment. Brawlers have by far the best combat abilities to begin with (I'm guessing ninjas get the bullshit multi attack skill too?) and equipment is piss weak right now anyways so I couldn't care less about not being able to wield some shitty claymore. Alchemist spells seem really fucking good too. Things like instant party escape at low levels, extra attacks per round and and other major buffs/debuffs. I suppose bishop is only getting the lower tier spells but even so it's pretty lackluster. I'd probably ditch him if not for the need for identify.

bishop are just really slow to learn all spell. I played them when I first began playing elminage, they're great for making lots of cash which can help in various ways, but now I often don't play them I need my spell asap.

 

[Damned Registrations]

So higher level monks basically spam their combo all the time? How viable is it to give one a beheading weapon and rely on that then? Even if they aren't hitting as hard, getting ~3 chances to proc it per turn seems pretty brutal.

 

[Dorarnae]

So higher level monks basically spam their combo all the time? How viable is it to give one a beheading weapon and rely on that then? Even if they aren't hitting as hard, getting ~3 chances to proc it per turn seems pretty brutal.

yeah it works, in previous game I gave them death tentacle or a weapon that paralyse...

 

[Haplo]

I'm not sure yet, but I think their chance to combo is always the same. What changes is the chance for the fourth hit (when he reaches a 4-hit combo) to upgrade into a "clean hit" which will deal triple (!) damage and reduce all enemy resistances by 20% - for the next action only.
Unless I'm mistaken. But my Brawler with 60% Combat Instinct still seems to combo about as much, as he did before.
Actually less, because mobs generally don't live beyond 1-2 attacks. Deals 600-650 damage per attack, over 900 with War Rite and/or Counter attack bonus (should I be getting a Counter bonus? I don't have the Ex Skill.. is it bugged?).

I guess Behead would work. But Ninja would still be better with the innate Behead boost (up to 50%) and 2 weapons with 10 attacks each. Plus if you use monster adventurer Ninjas, they often come with 20-35% natural Behead boost (which stacks with Ninja class boost).
Sleep is maybe a safer bet. It costs half the AP so you can reach a much higher %. And while it won't instagib the enemy, it will almost ensure that the following attacks in the combo chain will land and hurt.