ELEX Pre-Release Thread

[Tito Anic]

Is this what it's come to, in the end?

Seriously? I do not know

 

[cherry blossom]

It's so weird, what happened to PB. They introduced some great ideas with Gothic 1 (some of them based on earlier games like Ultimas which they admired, some were their own), and then with Gothic 2 and NotR, they polished and perfected most of them to the point where they created an RPG as close to perfection as any other that has ever been made. After that, all they had to do was to stick with that basic formula (open world, handcrafted map, decent action combat, detailed NPC schedules, involved faction system) and build on that. Instead, I guess because those first two games sold so poorly or something, they started doing completely different, significantly inferior stuff.

I might be wrong but I have the impression that a fundamental shift in development tools dictated a lot of the regressive changes. For instance, 3D environments in G1/2 were hand-modeled to the, detail the traditional way. Every terrain formation, pathway, ditch and the like; crafted largely polygon by polygon, to the specifics of the player, to be walked on, climbed on, carefully weaved like a web by the designers. Very impractical, huge amounts of work but the degree of utilitarian and aesthetic precision it provides is unsurpassed.

That was before a certain breed of "general purpose" 3d modelling tools became widely available. You can instantly recognize it in almost any 3d game with large open environments; bland terrain built out of a strictly ordinate polygonal matrix with 3d brush tools, sprinkled on top with various environmental props to break the regularity. Generic looking 3d structures visually at odds with their environment because they were built by other designers with a different pipeline using different tools. Massively easy and quick to design compared to traditional methods, but a hassle to modify to precise individual standards that don't conform to a continuous, uniform matrix and a mish-mash of distinctly different props.

Likewise with animation tools. Once the tools to make a task easier ara available, it seems hardwork and good results becomes disposable. Look at Bethesda, for instance; they re-emerged in the market with MW and 5 games later, the quality of animation in their best-sellers are still laughable.

Such changes dictate a certain approach when designing environments and mechanics which in turn dictates gameplay. Was it Tim Cain at Obsidian who explained there wouldn't be grappling in POE because animations would be difficult?

 

[toro]

It's so weird, what happened to PB. They introduced some great ideas with Gothic 1 (some of them based on earlier games like Ultimas which they admired, some were their own), and then with Gothic 2 and NotR, they polished and perfected most of them to the point where they created an RPG as close to perfection as any other that has ever been made. After that, all they had to do was to stick with that basic formula (open world, handcrafted map, decent action combat, detailed NPC schedules, involved faction system) and build on that. Instead, I guess because those first two games sold so poorly or something, they started doing completely different, significantly inferior stuff.

I might be wrong but I have the impression that a fundamental shift in development tools dictated a lot of the regressive changes. For instance, 3D environments in G1/2 were hand-modeled to the, detail the traditional way. Every terrain formation, pathway, ditch and the like; crafted largely polygon by polygon, to the specifics of the player, to be walked on, climbed on, carefully weaved like a web by the designers. Very impractical, huge amounts of work but the degree of utilitarian and aesthetic precision it provides is unsurpassed.

That was before a certain breed of "general purpose" 3d modelling tools became widely available. You can instantly recognize it in almost any 3d game with large open environments; bland terrain built out of a strictly ordinate polygonal matrix with 3d brush tools, sprinkled on top with various environmental props to break the regularity. Generic looking 3d structures visually at odds with their environment because they were built by other designers with a different pipeline using different tools. Massively easy and quick to design compared to traditional methods, but a hassle to modify to precise individual standards that don't conform to a continuous, uniform matrix and a mish-mash of distinctly different props.

Likewise with animation tools. Once the tools to make a task easier ara available, it seems hardwork and good results becomes disposable. Look at Bethesda, for instance; they re-emerged in the market with MW and 5 games later, the quality of animation in their best-sellers are still laughable.

Such changes dictate a certain approach when designing environments and mechanics which in turn dictates gameplay. Was it Tim Cain at Obsidian who explained there wouldn't be grappling in POE because animations would be difficult?

Nope.

The reality looks something like this: Gothic was born out of love for Ultima games. It was an adventure for a group of friends which shared a unique vision.

Gothic 2 still had that vision behind it but then the adventure was over and the business side took over.

By Gothic 3, the driving vision was gone. Marketing and publisher sheningans fucked up the release. The original people left and the QA guy took over.

Just take a look at this [resume]:

Risen 3: Titan Lords (2014) (Project Management, Game Design & Story)
Risen (2009) (Project Management)
Gothic 3 (2006) (Project Management)
Gothic II: Night of the Raven (2003) (Project Supervisor) - position usually reserved for incompetents which means that the guy had no real input on the project
Gothic II (2002) (Project Supervisor) - see above
Gothic (2001) (Quality Assurance) - basically SW tester

Even at first glance, I can tell you this:
1) There is no fucking way this guy promotion from testing to project supervisor was something normal. I'm not saying he is not competent but it's really strange. I honestly don't know what a SW tester can do to warrant such a promotion. Suck a dick or something?
2) He is no part of the original band of founders therefore he never shared their vision despite all the shit that he added to his resume.
3) As you can see, the games start sucking the moment he took over. Causation or correlation? I would say is a little bit of both but nevertheless he is one of decline signs.
4) He was groomed for leading PB. Personally I think he is a yes-man, a person without any personality which happens to be the type preferred by shareholders. Unfortunately this is the worst kind of person from a game design point of view.

In conclusion, development tools shifts and trends have nothing to do with PB's games decline. In fact, Risen games and especially Risen 3 are technically and visually competent. Their big problem is lack of vision: they are no longer about having an adventure, explore a world and escapism. They are about money.
These games were born from the boring mind of an accountant ... which honestly is the only thing that can explain the pirates theme. Only Disney, imbeciles and QA guys still think pirates are the best new thing in gaming. They could be but not when done in such a asinine way as in Risen games.

I cannot predict the future but I'm sure that PB will not release a good game as long as Bjorn Pankratz is leading that studio or the project. In fact, I'm not sure this studio will ever release another good game with him or without him.
The problem is that once you lose your vision/soul there is almost null chance you will get it back. It's not impossible but ... it will never happen.

This studio is a lost cause. Like Obsidian. They are no longer pushing the boundaries of any genre, they are doing shit to get money and feed their families. They are creatively bankrupt. They are dead. We should accept it.

 

[Morgoth]

I 100% agree with toro.

Fuck.

 

[Joni Odin von Hassenstein]

It's so weird, what happened to PB. They introduced some great ideas with Gothic 1 (some of them based on earlier games like Ultimas which they admired, some were their own), and then with Gothic 2 and NotR, they polished and perfected most of them to the point where they created an RPG as close to perfection as any other that has ever been made. After that, all they had to do was to stick with that basic formula (open world, handcrafted map, decent action combat, detailed NPC schedules, involved faction system) and build on that. Instead, I guess because those first two games sold so poorly or something, they started doing completely different, significantly inferior stuff.

I might be wrong but I have the impression that a fundamental shift in development tools dictated a lot of the regressive changes. For instance, 3D environments in G1/2 were hand-modeled to the, detail the traditional way. Every terrain formation, pathway, ditch and the like; crafted largely polygon by polygon, to the specifics of the player, to be walked on, climbed on, carefully weaved like a web by the designers. Very impractical, huge amounts of work but the degree of utilitarian and aesthetic precision it provides is unsurpassed.

That was before a certain breed of "general purpose" 3d modelling tools became widely available. You can instantly recognize it in almost any 3d game with large open environments; bland terrain built out of a strictly ordinate polygonal matrix with 3d brush tools, sprinkled on top with various environmental props to break the regularity. Generic looking 3d structures visually at odds with their environment because they were built by other designers with a different pipeline using different tools. Massively easy and quick to design compared to traditional methods, but a hassle to modify to precise individual standards that don't conform to a continuous, uniform matrix and a mish-mash of distinctly different props.

Likewise with animation tools. Once the tools to make a task easier ara available, it seems hardwork and good results becomes disposable. Look at Bethesda, for instance; they re-emerged in the market with MW and 5 games later, the quality of animation in their best-sellers are still laughable.

Such changes dictate a certain approach when designing environments and mechanics which in turn dictates gameplay. Was it Tim Cain at Obsidian who explained there wouldn't be grappling in POE because animations would be difficult?

And here, ladies and gentlemen, you see the exact microcosmic explanation of why progress on any level always has its downside. If we transform this example to principle, to concept, and therefore make it apply to meditations on the macrocosmic, we have the tool at hand to see why our time sucks.

Spoiler

 

[Orma]

PB always liked pirates though, should be obvious if you've played gothic 2 NotR

 

[toro]

PB always liked pirates though, should be obvious if you've played gothic 2 NotR

Pirates have their place in Gothic world but the Disney approach from Risen games is completely off.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I might be wrong but I have the impression that a fundamental shift in development tools dictated a lot of the regressive changes. For instance, 3D environments in G1/2 were hand-modeled to the, detail the traditional way. Every terrain formation, pathway, ditch and the like; crafted largely polygon by polygon, to the specifics of the player, to be walked on, climbed on, carefully weaved like a web by the designers. Very impractical, huge amounts of work but the degree of utilitarian and aesthetic precision it provides is unsurpassed.

That was before a certain breed of "general purpose" 3d modelling tools became widely available. You can instantly recognize it in almost any 3d game with large open environments; bland terrain built out of a strictly ordinate polygonal matrix with 3d brush tools, sprinkled on top with various environmental props to break the regularity. Generic looking 3d structures visually at odds with their environment because they were built by other designers with a different pipeline using different tools. Massively easy and quick to design compared to traditional methods, but a hassle to modify to precise individual standards that don't conform to a continuous, uniform matrix and a mish-mash of distinctly different props.

Likewise with animation tools. Once the tools to make a task easier ara available, it seems hardwork and good results becomes disposable. Look at Bethesda, for instance; they re-emerged in the market with MW and 5 games later, the quality of animation in their best-sellers are still laughable.

That might be responsible for some of it, but there is a lot of other stuff as well. The combat went dowhill starting with G3 (the reflex based combat of the first two games might have been too challenging for their mainstream goals or something, I don't know), the unique quests and gameplay turned into the repetitive village by village slog, the great Old Camp turned into that crappy first settlement in Risen, and so on. As Toro mentioned, it definitely seems like the creative spark behind the first two games left the studio at some point.

Such changes dictate a certain approach when designing environments and mechanics which in turn dictates gameplay. Was it Tim Cain at Obsidian who explained there wouldn't be grappling in POE because animations would be difficult?

This is actually an interesting point about grappling. I don't think this has to do with using generic tools so much, after all, even the handcrafted classics of yesterday typically did not have such detailed fighting. Once you go full graphics, it's very hard to implement detailed combat because you need extra resources to produce the extra animations/textures/sprites to represent those moves. A game that DOES have grappling is of course Dwarf Fortress, which being ASCII, doesn't need to worry about such things, and can implement all kinds of in-depth actions and moves. Ironically, I think it might be a third party tool that allows such things for graphical games in the future. This sort of thing is too expensive for any single studio to make, but a third party could create a combat module with all these extra animations and related things and then license it out to RPG studios for a fee.

 

[:Flash:]

By Gothic 3, the driving vision was gone. Marketing and publisher sheningans fucked up the release. The original people left and the QA guy took over.

Just take a look at this [resume]:

Risen 3: Titan Lords (2014) (Project Management, Game Design & Story)
Risen (2009) (Project Management)
Gothic 3 (2006) (Project Management)
Gothic II: Night of the Raven (2003) (Project Supervisor) - position usually reserved for incompetents which means that the guy had no real input on the project
Gothic II (2002) (Project Supervisor) - see above
Gothic (2001) (Quality Assurance) - basically SW tester

Even at first glance, I can tell you this:
1) There is no fucking way this guy promotion from testing to project supervisor was something normal. I'm not saying he is not competent but it's really strange. I honestly don't know what a SW tester can do to warrant such a promotion. Suck a dick or something?
2) He is no part of the original band of founders therefore he never shared their vision despite all the shit that he added to his resume.
3) As you can see, the games start sucking the moment he took over. Causation or correlation? I would say is a little bit of both but nevertheless he is one of decline signs.
4) He was groomed for leading PB. Personally I think he is a yes-man, a person without any personality which happens to be the type preferred by shareholders. Unfortunately this is the worst kind of person from a game design point of view.

Well, the original Team were four members of Greenwood, who had previously worked on Metalizer and D.O.G, plus three Students who had written an Ultima Underworld clone in Turbo Pascal and pitched it to Greenwood. All four of the former are credited as Game Designers in Gothic 1, the latter three are credited as programmers.

Of the four designers, three left after Gothic 1. Ironically, two of them had been nothing but Playtesters with Greenwood, so they probably sucked a dick to become designers on Gothic 1.
All three of programmers left after Gothic 1.
So if this theory was true, Gothic 2 should have been a huge decline. Or else, Gothic 2 was just a blind copy of Gothic 1, without them knowing what they were doing, and it all started to go downhill when they started to do their own thing.
Only Michael Hoge stayed with PB, and is credited with Game Design for Risen 2. He is now working on Spacetime with Piranha Bytes Red.

It's probably a combination of a lot of factors.

 

[imweasel]

Just take a look at this [resume]:

[...]

Risen (2009) (Project Management)

[...]

I cannot predict the future but I'm sure that PB will not release a good game as long as Bjorn Pankratz is leading that studio or the project.

Risen is really fucking good, bro.

 

[toro]

Or else, Gothic 2 was just a blind copy of Gothic 1, without them knowing what they were doing, and it all started to go downhill when they started to do their own thing.

Look at combat:

Gothic 1 - good to great
Gothic 2 - good to great (mostly G1 copy-paste cause the engine was a modified version of G1 engine)
Gothic 3 - abomination (new engine and their own thing - boars anyone !? - )
Risen - mediocre (new engine and perhaps this was their last sincere attempt to recreate Gothic combat)
Risen 2 - awful
Risen 3 - awful

I think you answered your question. Gothic 2 was good because they used the old engine.

Risen is really fucking good, bro.

First half is good. But the second part is bad. Not to mention the non-sensical ending. Overall the game is boring.

I understand why you would like the game and maybe the game is good for whatever it is ... but it's really bad when compared to G1 and G2.

Now, I don't know. Maybe I see G1 and G2 through rose-tinted glasses.

 

[toro]

According to the metacritic:

Gothic II (PC) Oct 28, 2003 8.8
Gothic (PC) Nov 23, 2001 8.6
Risen (PC) Oct 2, 2009 8.1
Gothic 3 (PC) Nov 14, 2006 7.2
Risen 3: Titan Lords (PC) Aug 12, 2014 5.7
Risen 2: Dark Waters (PC) Apr 24, 2012 5.6

 

[adddeed]

Or else, Gothic 2 was just a blind copy of Gothic 1, without them knowing what they were doing, and it all started to go downhill when they started to do their own thing.

Look at combat:

Gothic 1 - good to great
Gothic 2 - good to great (mostly G1 copy-paste cause the engine was a modified version of G1 engine)
Gothic 3 - abomination (new engine and their own thing - boars anyone !? - )
Risen - mediocre (new engine and perhaps this was their last sincere attempt to recreate Gothic combat)
Risen 2 - awful
Risen 3 - awful

I think you answered your question. Gothic 2 was good because they used the old engine.

Risen is really fucking good, bro.

First half is good. But the second part is bad. Not to mention the non-sensical ending. Overall the game is boring.

I understand why you would like the game and maybe the game is good for whatever it is ... but it's really bad when compared to G1 and G2.

Now, I don't know. Maybe I see G1 and G2 through rose-tinted glasses.

Yes you are. Gothic combat better than Risen? Please. Risen 1 has the best combat out of the whole franchise, not to mention better than most other RPGs.

And no Risen isnt just goofd for what it is, it's an awesome game from start to finish.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Yes you are. Gothic combat better than Risen? Please. Risen 1 has the best combat out of the whole franchise, not to mention better than most other RPGs.

And no Risen isnt just goofd for what it is, it's an awesome game from start to finish.

It's a good game from start to half. Inferior game by orders of magnitude to both Gothic 1 and 2

 

[cherry blossom]

In conclusion, development tools shifts and trends have nothing to do with PB's games decline. In fact, Risen games and especially Risen 3 are technically and visually competent. Their big problem is lack of vision: they are no longer about having an adventure, explore a world and escapism. They are about money.

I don't think you can really isolate one from the other. The two go hand in hand.

 

[adddeed]

Yes you are. Gothic combat better than Risen? Please. Risen 1 has the best combat out of the whole franchise, not to mention better than most other RPGs.

And no Risen isnt just goofd for what it is, it's an awesome game from start to finish.

It's a good game from start to half. Inferior game by orders of magnitude to both Gothic 1 and 2

If it is only good from start to half, then so are Gothic 1 and 2. All of them follow a very similar formula.

Orders of magnitude inferior? I played Gothic 1 and 2 back to back recently, and saw nothing order of magnitude better than Risen. Care to elaborate?

And since combat in Risen 1 is so satisfiying, the dungeon romp in the last Chapter was fun. I mean you spend all the game getting good, and finally you get some hack and slash to make it worth your time. No need for the whole game to have the same pace as the beginning.

 

[toro]

From the new Mass Effect gameplay leak:

Jetpacks man!! PB were out-classed by Bioware. Again.

ELEX is kill. They must scrap the script and start over. Go for hover-boarding or surfing. At least surfing feels like a natural progression from pirates. Amirite !?

 

[Tigranes]

Yes you are. Gothic combat better than Risen? Please. Risen 1 has the best combat out of the whole franchise, not to mention better than most other RPGs.

And no Risen isnt just goofd for what it is, it's an awesome game from start to finish.

It's a good game from start to half. Inferior game by orders of magnitude to both Gothic 1 and 2

G1 and G2 are pretty shit after halfway point. They're still better than R1, but let's not sugarcoat

 

[Prime Junta]

Most cRPG's are shit past the halfway point.

Also G3 needs more love. It's no G2 and as released it was borderline unplayable of course, but after the community patches it was pretty damn good. Genuine world reactivity, masses of diverse locations and environments to discover, hand-written quests, scads of cool items, excellent crafting, genuinely challenging character development with meaningful choices, tough and surprisingly varied fights... Beats the pants off Oblivion in every way that counts. (Can't speak for Skyrim since I never played it.)

From where I'm at the only real problem with G3 was overreach. They just didn't have what it takes to make something that big, well. The community patches sorted most of that out nicely.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Gotta go full VD on your ass here.

Genuine world reactivity

Even liberating towns seemed to do fuck all. What are your good examples of this reactivity you speak? I felt exactly the opposite after how they did it in G1/2.

hand-written quests

It's not much of an achievement to hand-write hundreds of fetch quests a la Ubicry, isn't it?

scads of cool items

I mostly remember randomly generated crap.

excellent crafting

Really? My memory is sketchy on this, so maybe i'm wrong, but really..

character development with meaningful choices

The only playthrough i managed was with melee two--handed guy and only meaningful choice was ti pump into ST and two-handed skill.

tough and surprisingly varied fights

Yeah, right. Most of the fights are plowing swarming trash mobs, without any thought of tactics. Compared to G1/2 - absolutely depressing.

From where I'm at the only real problem with G3 was overreach. They just didn't have what it takes to make something that big, well. The community patches sorted most of that out nicely.

Never played community patch - how does it remedy huge empty world full of cardboard npcs and flat landscapes?

 

[hello friend]

Soundtrack was great though

 

[Morkar Left]

Never played community patch - how does it remedy huge empty world full of cardboard npcs and flat landscapes?

With Questpack mod a lot. It completes the game.
CP makes the combat more challenging too (up to 3 enemies attack you at once on highest difficulty). The problem is, if you hate the G3 combat - which is rather different from G1/G2 combat and has serious issues with height differences - you probably can't enjoy the game. Nothing to change that.

 

[Prime Junta]

Gotta go full VD on your ass here.

Genuine world reactivity

Even liberating towns seemed to do fuck all. What are your good examples of this reactivity you speak? I felt exactly the opposite after how they did it in G1/2.

Try siding with the orcs. See how that changes things.

hand-written quests

It's not much of an achievement to hand-write hundreds of fetch quests a la Ubicry, isn't it?

Sure, they weren't all good, and there were too many fetch quests. But a lot of them were, and they felt 'logical' -- they made sense given what else was going on.

scads of cool items

I mostly remember randomly generated crap.

That, too. But there were also scads of cool items.

excellent crafting

Really? My memory is sketchy on this, so maybe i'm wrong, but really..

I remember having fun hunting for schematics (or whatever they were called), then materials, then meeting the requirements, then enjoying the result.

character development with meaningful choices

The only playthrough i managed was with melee two--handed guy and only meaningful choice was ti pump into ST and two-handed skill.

I also played as an archer and a caster. Progression and gameplay was very different, and I had to chase different trainers, gear, requirements etc.

tough and surprisingly varied fights

Yeah, right. Most of the fights are plowing swarming trash mobs, without any thought of tactics. Compared to G1/2 - absolutely depressing.

I remember enjoying stalking my target, trying to get one-shot kills, pulling, kiting, setting up spells, etc.

From where I'm at the only real problem with G3 was overreach. They just didn't have what it takes to make something that big, well. The community patches sorted most of that out nicely.

Never played community patch - how does it remedy huge empty world full of cardboard npcs and flat landscapes?

It fixes the gameplay. That makes it possible to enjoy what's in the world, rather than just raging at how fucking unenjoyable it is moment to moment (not to mention dreading the moment when you next fall through the geometry, crash, get stunlocked, or otherwise glitch out).

(Also, cardboard NPC's... yeah, they were, but then G1/2's NPC's weren't exactly written by Shakespeare either.)

Bottom line... if you only played the game one way (two-handed-sword fighter, liberating cities), then you weren't in a position to experience the variety of gameplay and reactivity on offer. Archery or magic plays out very differently, in terms of tactics, moment to moment gameplay, progression, or loot, and your faction allegiance makes a huge difference to the world as well, closing off questlines, changing the state in various locations, and so on.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Guess i will revisit it with fan patch someday playing mage and siding for orcs. Magic seemed relatively more fun judging from the spell scrolls i used sporadically. If they fixed the stun-locking boars it would be a reason enough to at least try it once more.

 

[Prime Junta]

Guess i will revisit it with fan patch someday playing mage and siding for orcs. Magic seemed relatively more fun judging from the spell scrolls i used sporadically. If they fixed the stun-locking boars it would be a reason enough to at least try it once more.

Stun-locking boars are no more. Combat in general is miles better.

I still had more fun with archery and magic than melee though.