From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[cvv]

Popularity is one thing, but Skyrim and Mass Effect never brought in legions of self-righteous memelords who genuinely believed that they were gods gift to video games by being able to complete this video game successfully.

And that's the game's problem why exactly?

 

[Valky]

Don't put words in my mouth. It was likely a problem of the time period being severely saturated with shit games in general (not much has changed since in that regard). The fact remains that the aftermath of its creation is one of the worst things of the 2010's.

 

[HarveyBirdman]

A portion of the Dark Souls fan base told people to git gud, and that was the worst thing to happen to gaming in the past decade? I'm not really seeing the issue. If people want to pat themselves on the back for beating a difficult game, then its no skin off my back.

Rather, I think the game's difficulty was great for the gaming industry in general, because it showed that consumers love a serious challenge. For the RPG scene specifically, Dark Souls showed that developers don't have to hold our hands with quest markers and three stats (looking at you, Skyrim) to be a commercial success.

 

[Owlish]

Is Dark Souls even open world with branching narratives? I never played it. Seems linear to me, so I don't know why it would need quest markers or hints.

 

[cvv]

Valky was probably told to git gud and blam, a lifelong trauma.

 

[cvv]

Is Dark Souls even open world with branching narratives? I never played it. Seems linear to me, so I don't know why it would need quest markers or hints.

Dark Souls world is more like interconnected areas you can complete in a fairly non-linear fashion.

 

[HarveyBirdman]

Is Dark Souls even open world with branching narratives? I never played it. Seems linear to me, so I don't know why it would need quest markers or hints.

Big open world, lots of quests, and no way to get directions to locations. Imagine playing Morrowind without the ability to ask for directions.

Quest markers/gimped journal is the single worst decision Bethesda has ever made. It ruined their games.

 

[Valky]

Valky was probably told to git gud and blam, a lifelong trauma.

The games aren't even that difficult though.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Dark Souls is an alright game but the absolute amount of decline it brought in general is absurd.

What decline?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Popularity is one thing, but Skyrim and Mass Effect never brought in legions of self-righteous memelords who genuinely believed that they were gods gift to video games by being able to complete this video game successfully. Not to mention how criticism is shouted down with memes to defend the honor of m'lady dark souls.

If the worst impact generated by Dark Souls was that a portion of its player-base patted themselves on the back for having completed it, then it must have had the least negative effect of any popular CRPG released in the last decade or more.

 

[Owlish]

Is Dark Souls even open world with branching narratives? I never played it. Seems linear to me, so I don't know why it would need quest markers or hints.

Dark Souls world is more like interconnected areas you can complete in a fairly non-linear fashion.

Sounds like Super Mario World

 

[sputtering fart balloon]

Sounds like Super Mario World

Well you actually can get different endings to side quests and the main story, the problem is it's so obtuse and obscure for the sake of it that you can barely tell what's really going on without reading a wiki so when you complement some dude's shoes and he kills himself later (and wouldn't have otherwise), did you really complete a quest?

 

[HarveyBirdman]

Sounds like Super Mario World

Well you actually can get different endings to side quests and the main story, the problem is it's so obtuse and obscure for the sake of it that you can barely tell what's really going on without reading a wiki so when you complement some dude's shoes and he kills himself later (and wouldn't have otherwise), did you really complete a quest?

The vagueness has two very rational reasons:

(1) We're dealing with the apocalyptic remnants of innumerable parallel universes/timelines, characters locked in eternal struggle, and events that have unfolded over untold aeons. The only entities that might know the base truth are so entrenched in their forever-war that they will only ever reveal partial truths in order to manipulate you. This backdrop necessarily binds the NPC storylines, and tells a message equal parts hope, despair, futility, and perseverance. In other words, how could you possibly expect anybody to feed you the whole story?

(2) You're supposed to feel lost and discouraged. Everything -- from the combat, to the depressing ruins, to the story that only survives as the retellings of retellings of fragmented knowledge -- weighs upon the player. You're supposed to want to persevere anyway, and discover the truth, or justice, or whatever you want to call it.

 

[sputtering fart balloon]

I don't disagree with any of that, but ultimately it's still probable that most people playing these games are just going to wiki much about the them, so the question is whether or not that's to the game's detriment. I don't really know. But I'm glad this kind of game exists regardless,

Spoiler

if only because it means Bloodborne was... born, and Bloodborne is million times better than Dark Souls.

 

[HarveyBirdman]

Bloodborne is very good. I prefer Dark Souls, because you can replay with incredibly different builds. Bloodborne build differences are less drastic.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Bloodborne is very good. I prefer Dark Souls, because you can replay with incredibly different builds. Bloodborne build differences are less drastic.

Bloodborne revised the combat system to make it substantially more action-based and fast-paced, while simultaneously reducing the extent of character customization. Demon's Souls and Dark Souls were already so action-based that they were borderline cases of the RPG genre, and Bloodborne clearly departed from the RPG genre into being an action game with RPG elements.

 

[Silva]

Nah, bullshit.

Bloodborne is as RPG as any Souls. Stop trying to justify your preferences. Just say "I prefer Dark Souls because I'm a fantasy faggot" and that's it.

And if builds were indicative of RPGs, Baldurs Gate would be one, since it's full of builds. STALKER don't have any build and is more an RPG than BG ever was.

 

[Kitchen Utensil]

Valky was probably told to git gud and blam, a lifelong trauma.

The games aren't even that difficult though.

Compared to games in the genre and with a similar budget they are quite hard.
Yes, most shmups are harder, but that's kinda irrelevant.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Nah, bullshit.

Bloodborne is as RPG as any Souls. Stop trying to justify your preferences. Just say "I prefer Dark Souls because I'm a fantasy faggot" and that's it.

I would prefer Bloodborne, with its Gothic Lovecraftian fantasy setting, over the less coherent and more generic (but also beautifully-rendered) fantasy setting of Dark Souls, but Bloodborne is much less of an RPG and much more of an action game, with fewer available playstyles.

 

[HarveyBirdman]

Bloodborne revised the combat system to make it substantially more action-based and fast-paced, while simultaneously reducing the extent of character customization. Demon's Souls and Dark Souls were already so action-based that they were borderline cases of the RPG genre, and Bloodborne clearly departed from the RPG genre into being an action game with RPG elements.

Partially agreed.
Adding action elements to an RPG doesn't necessarily detract from RPG-ness. It's pure addition, and not subtraction.
However, context matters. The context of how Bloodborne adds action elements necessarily reduces its RPG-ness.

All Bloodborne builds must use the health regen mechanic -- the whole game is designed to force you into aggressive play styles.
The small handful of weapons more or less feel the same. Some weapons are a bit slower and more damaging, while others are a bit quicker and less damaging, and a couple have neat gimmicks. But every weapon is designed around the combat system, which only ever rewards an aggressive play style.

Conversely, the Dark Souls combat system isn't focused on highlighting some specific mechanic. Rather, the Dark Souls system allows for pretty much any blend of aggressiveness versus passivity, often changing moment to moment as your opponent switches tactics (especially in the PvP scene).
Dark Souls has, like, 10 times more weapons than Bloodborne. All the weapon classes feel unique. All the magic classes feel unique. Even the subdivisions of these classes (for example, normal sorceries versus dark sorceries) feel unique. Dark Souls has incredible variety, which Bloodborne lacks.

So when I see comments like...

Nah, bullshit.

Bloodborne is as RPG as any Souls. Stop trying to justify your preferences. Just say "I prefer Dark Souls because I'm a fantasy faggot" and that's it.

And if builds were indicative of RPGs, Baldurs Gate would be one, since it's full of builds. STALKER don't have any build and is more an RPG than BG ever was.

... I have to shake my head.
Bloodborne is an RPG. Dark Souls is better at being an RPG.

Also, are you trying to say that BG isn't an RPG? I'm not a huge fan of the series. The story structure sucks, the companions suck, the writing in general sucks, and the D&D ruleset sucks. It's merit comes from good execution of these shitty things, which resulted in a franchise that is better than most. It's definitely an RPG though.

 

[Silva]

... I have to shake my head.
Bloodborne is an RPG. Dark Souls is better at being an RPG.

Also, are you trying to say that BG isn't an RPG? I'm not a huge fan of the series. The story structure sucks, the companions suck, the writing in general sucks, and the D&D ruleset sucks. It's merit comes from good execution of these shitty things, which resulted in a franchise that is better than most. It's definitely an RPG though.

I'm just pissing at the idea that because something is an RPG (or more RPG than something else) it's automatically good or better. It's not, and Baldurs Gate is proof of that - it strikes all the criteria for being an "RPG" (whatever that means these days) and it's a piece of steaming shit.

So it's about time people stop saying "I like whatever because it's more an RPG" as if being an RPG is some seal of quality. It's not.

 

[Serious_Business]

Bloodborne revised the combat system to make it substantially more action-based and fast-paced, while simultaneously reducing the extent of character customization. Demon's Souls and Dark Souls were already so action-based that they were borderline cases of the RPG genre, and Bloodborne clearly departed from the RPG genre into being an action game with RPG elements.

The small handful of weapons more or less feel the same. Some weapons are a bit slower and more damaging, while others are a bit quicker and less damaging, and a couple have neat gimmicks. But every weapon is designed around the combat system, which only ever rewards an aggressive play style.

No fucking way. Bloodborne's weapons are far superior to anything Dark Souls has done.

 

[HarveyBirdman]

The trick weapons are really cool and fun, but the difference between them is diminutive. They all play the same way.

 

[sputtering fart balloon]

The idea that Dark Souls somehow has radically more builds falls apart when you realize straight swords and axes are all samey, a lot of the other weapons share exact movesets, etc. Meanwhile, all of Bloodborne's weapons are their own playstyle (except for the one very specific instance of saw spear/saw cleaver being almost clones for some weird reason), plus mixing and matching left hand weapons has a much larger impact than just parry-or-cast-spells. In Bloodborne, you can be a gatling gun wielding, meteorite shooting, flaming whip styling, top hatted wizard and you will typically see a massive variety of builds in multiplayer. Yet in Dark Souls you have the choice to fight: heavy stick man, or light stick man. Sometimes he parries, sometimes he shoots Dark Bead, and he's usually a twink scrub looking to gank noobs with possibly even hacked items because of course he fucking is it's the Dark Souls community.

tl;dr Dark Souls does not have way more options you got tricked look at the equipment categories on fextralife

 

[HarveyBirdman]

Bloodborne: attack, get hit, but keep attacking because that's what the whole game is designed for no matter what stats/equipment you're rolling with.