Dragon Age impressions

[Lonely Vazdru]

There is a significant distinction between these two types of "expansion packs", and I think it's silly to ignore that and lump them all together just because they share the requirement of having the original game installed./quote]

Granted, but it is just as silly to brand one a "stand alone" when it absolutely isn't.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Fuck you Codex.

Silellak wrote :

There is a significant distinction between these two types of "expansion packs", and I think it's silly to ignore that and lump them all together just because they share the requirement of having the original game installed.

Granted, but it is just as silly to brand one a "stand alone" when it absolutely isn't.

 

[Zeus]

I just got the 200th issue of Game Informer, which bashed DA:O's dumbed-down console combat. This is the first time I've heard about this (but I've been avoiding spoilers).

Is the 360 combat really that much worse than PC? They make it sound like you lose a whole layer of tactical combat and it turns into a button-mash with AI-controlled drones. If that's the case, I guess it's about time I got a new graphics card.

 

[1eyedking]

I really don't think it's that difficult of a concept; stand-alone means "can you judge this particular game/expansion/whatever on its own merits".

Stand-alone means it doesn't require the original to be installed to be played. Period.

Obviously this is going to be a subjective thing, but I think most reasonable people will agree on what's worth judging as a stand-alone game and what is not. There's is no doubt that because MotB requires the original game, it is technically an expansion pack. However, I also think there's no doubt that MotB is stand-alone in that it can be judged entirely on its own merits (shitty game engine aside), rather than being reviewed as just another part of NWN2.

As to whether the expansion pack can be judged by it's own merits, it depends on what merits. MotB unfortunately inherits all of the bad stuff from NWN2: bad camera, bad HUD, bad combat, bad performance, etc.; all of that gets carried into the expansion so it is to be considered.

As for the story, C&C, and encounter design (pretty much everything that isn't engine-related), yes, it stands in its own light. But you can't ignore what I mentioned, particularly since it's what FUBARs what would otherwise have been a cool expansion pack.

Another question to ask is, could you imagine a scenario where this expansion was sold as a stand-alone boxed game - albeit perhaps at a lower price? I could easily see MotB being sold for $20 or $30 without requiring the original NWN2. After all, the only thing that really keeps Ultima VII Part 2 from being an expansion pack is that it doesn't require the original game. Other than that, it fits all the aspects of the "expansion pack" definition that MotB does - same game engine, continuation of original game, and shorter than the original game. On the other hand, no one can really imagine a world where Forge of Virtue or Tales of the Sword Coast are sold as stand-alone games, and they aren't typically judged as such.

Yes, it could have been sold as stand-alone, but it's still a continuation from NWN2. Had they explicitly removed every detail, then it would have been considered otherwise (as was SoZ, for example).

They used that property as a marketing ploy to both attract original customers to the expansion pack, and to get new ones to buy the original NWN2 to play said expansion. It's not stand-alone by any means.

 

[Silellak]

I really don't think it's that difficult of a concept; stand-alone means "can you judge this particular game/expansion/whatever on its own merits".

Stand-alone means it doesn't require the original to be installed to be played. Period.

Obviously this is going to be a subjective thing, but I think most reasonable people will agree on what's worth judging as a stand-alone game and what is not. There's is no doubt that because MotB requires the original game, it is technically an expansion pack. However, I also think there's no doubt that MotB is stand-alone in that it can be judged entirely on its own merits (shitty game engine aside), rather than being reviewed as just another part of NWN2.

As to whether the expansion pack can be judged by it's own merits, it depends on what merits. MotB unfortunately inherits all of the bad stuff from NWN2: bad camera, bad HUD, bad combat, bad performance, etc.; all of that gets carried into the expansion so it is to be considered.

As for the story, C&C, and encounter design (pretty much everything that isn't engine-related), yes, it stands in its own light. But you can't ignore what I mentioned, particularly since it's what FUBARs what would otherwise have been a cool expansion pack.

Another question to ask is, could you imagine a scenario where this expansion was sold as a stand-alone boxed game - albeit perhaps at a lower price? I could easily see MotB being sold for $20 or $30 without requiring the original NWN2. After all, the only thing that really keeps Ultima VII Part 2 from being an expansion pack is that it doesn't require the original game. Other than that, it fits all the aspects of the "expansion pack" definition that MotB does - same game engine, continuation of original game, and shorter than the original game. On the other hand, no one can really imagine a world where Forge of Virtue or Tales of the Sword Coast are sold as stand-alone games, and they aren't typically judged as such.

Yes, it could have been sold as stand-alone, but it's still a continuation from NWN2. Had they explicitly removed every detail, then it would have been considered otherwise (as was SoZ, for example).

They used that property as a marketing ploy to both attract original customers to the expansion pack, and to get new ones to buy the original NWN2 to play said expansion. It's not stand-alone by any means.

Do we agree, then, that there is at least an important distinction between an expansion like Mask of the Betrayer, and an expansion like Tales of the Sword Coast? And that the distinction is substantial enough that comparing them just because they're both technically expansion packs is rather futile?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I really don't think it's that difficult of a concept; stand-alone means "can you judge this particular game/expansion/whatever on its own merits".

Stand-alone means it doesn't require the original to be installed to be played. Period.

Is that the new and improved definition?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stand%20alone

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stand+alone

http://www.yourdictionary.com/stand-alone

If you want to get anal, no game is stand-alone, because all PC games require certain hardware (a certain video card, for example) and a shitload of software (from OS to all kinda drivers).

In other words, stand-alone software is a term open for interpretation, much like anything else software related (see the recent what is and isn't source code and scripts debate).

 

[Burning Bridges]

You are splitting hairs, or just having arguments for arguments sake. I think we all know what stand-alone and addon mean. No one needs to be explained the difference between houses and furniture.

P.S. MotB is an addon, of course.

 

[Volourn]

"They make it sound like you lose a whole layer of tactical combat and it turns into a button-mash with AI-controlled drones."

they'r elying espicially since you don't have to use the AI and cna control all 4 characters yourself. *shrug*

Consoles, and PC each have their strengths and weaknesses.

Some examples: PC has iso view, and console doesn't. However, console (at least the 360) has the much awesomer version of the codex.

 

[Tails]

You are splitting hairs, or just having arguments for arguments sake. I think we all know what stand-alone and addon mean. No one needs to be explained the difference between houses and furniture.

P.S. MotB is an addon, of course.

Agreed. This drama gets lower and lower with every page.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You are splitting hairs, or just having arguments for arguments sake. I think we all know what stand-alone and addon mean. No one needs to be explained the difference between houses and furniture.

P.S. MotB is an addon, of course.

I beg to differ.

Stand-alone in games refers to the exactly the same thing it refers in books (google stand-alone book) - it refers to an unrelated story. That's why BG2 isn't a stand-alone game, but MotB is.

 

[Volourn]

But, it isn't.

MOTB is tied to the OC. This is a fact.

MOTB would not occur if not for the events of the OC.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Would you like me to tie Fallout to the NWN2 OC events? I can easily do that for you.

My point is that the "tie" is artificial and any games can be tied in such a way. I can say that Geralt is actually Drizzt who lost his memory and skin color. Would that make the Witcher a FR game?

MotB was done by a different lead who wanted to tell a different story, had different design ideas, and didn't even like the OC. Unfortunately the only way for him to make such a game was to make an expansion. The end.

 

[Tails]

Stand-alone in games refers to the exactly the same thing it refers in books (google stand-alone book) - it refers to an unrelated story. That's why BG2 isn't a stand-alone game, but MotB is.

No. For a very long time in case of games it was:
Stand-alone: Game that didn't require any previous game/part installed to play. Could be more or less related to previous parts. Expansion: Requires previous game installed and expands or introduces new story.
It could be not right to book definition but this is how it always worked in case of games.

And about MoTB:

Mask of the Betrayer continues the story of Neverwinter Nights 2 by following the main character, the Shard-Bearer, who is on a quest to determine the nature of his new ability to "eat" souls as a result of the events of the first game.

The end.

 

[hiver]

cant it be both? guiz?

 

[Volourn]

Now, youa re plainly being stupid. Trying turn drizzt into Geralt doesn't even remotely make fuckin' sense.

MOTB doesn't happen without NWN2 OC. They tie directly together. It absically continues the story from right where the OC stops.

Just because you like x better than y doesn't mean they aren't connected.

Next youa re gonna claim that Beverly Hills Cop 3 isn't connected to Beverly Hills Cop 1 cause the only thing they have in common really is the main character story wise. LMAO


"result of the events of the first game."

Let's repeat this for those who are being ignorant:

RESULTS OF THE EVENTS OF THE FIRST GAME

 

[Raghar]

In other words, stand-alone software is a term open for interpretation, much like anything else software related (see the recent what is and isn't source code and scripts debate).

No it isn't. Stand alone, according to traditions of the (SW) game industry, means an ability to be used without the original game (program). In fact, one of definitions you linked to said something like "without requirement for an additional SW".

 

[Silellak]

And about MoTB:

Mask of the Betrayer continues the story of Neverwinter Nights 2 by following the main character, the Shard-Bearer, who is on a quest to determine the nature of his new ability to "eat" souls as a result of the events of the first game.

The end.

Not sure where that quote is from, but as revealed in the game itself, the ability of the Shard-Bearer to devour souls has absolutely no tie-in to the "result of the events of the first game", beyond the fact that the people who captured him did so during the chaos following the King of Shadow's destruction:

The death of the King of Shadows would, unfortunately, not be the end of the Kalach-Cha’s troubles. The magic unleashed by the King’s death caused the walls around them to tremble and collapse, causing the entire fortress to crumble to pieces. The Kalach-Cha and their companions tried to escape the ruins, some successfully, others not. In the chaos, two gargoyles took advantage of the turmoil, appearing from out of nowhere and snatching the Kalach-Cha from the ruins and knocking them unconscious before bring them through a portal which led into the Plane of Shadow. Although the chaos resultant from the battle did not give many of the Kalach-Cha’s companions a chance to witness this, Ammon Jerro did and quickly took pursuit.

The warlock would follow the Kalach-Cha through the portal and into an abandoned replica of the Rashemi city Mulsantir on the Plane of Shadow. There, Ammon was ambushed by two Red Wizards of Thay, who had sent the gargoyles to retrieve the Kalach-Cha for their own purposes. One, Nefris, was all too familiar with Ammon and knew his power, and determined to strike quickly and without mercy so the warlock would not have the chance to upset her plans. Once unconscious, Ammon was taken to the Academy of Shapers and Binders for his soul to extract whilst Nefris and the other wizard, a woman named Lienna, prepared another ritual for the unconscious Kalach-Cha.

While the Kalach-Cha slept, drifting in and out of consciousness, the wizards operated on the hero, withdrawing from their chest the shard that had preserved them since birth. Knowing that this would kill the Kalach-Cha they quickly transported the unconscious hero to a cave near Mulsantir in the Prime, placing them deep within its lowest layer, near a series of rune-inscribed pillars. Then, they left the hero without further action. Lienna returned to Mulsantir to await the hero while Nefris headed to Thay and dispatched her daughter Safiya to fetch the hero, revive them, and bring them before Lienna, treating them as a dear and precious friend.

When Safiya arrived, the Kalach-Cha was already beginning to awake. However, they found themselves unable to move, as if all their animating energy had been drained from them. And beneath that feeling of limp lethargy the hero also felt a deep and unfathomable hunger, caused by the magic infused into the walls around them, which Nefris and Lienna had counted on to preserve the hero’s life and imbue him with the Betrayer’s Curse. With Safiya’s arrival and help, the Kalach-Cha was able to stand, although they found themselves deprived of all but their most basic equipment, including the Sword of Gith, which Nefris had taken.

Source: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kalach-Cha

So, while the end of the NWN2 OC is tied to the beginning of MotB, it's quite a stretch to say that his "soul eating ability" is the "result of the events of the first game."

 

[Vault Dweller]

Stand-alone in games refers to the exactly the same thing it refers in books (google stand-alone book) - it refers to an unrelated story. That's why BG2 isn't a stand-alone game, but MotB is.

No. For a very long time in case of games it was:

Where?

Stand-alone: Game that didn't require any previous game/part installed to play. Could be more or less related to previous parts. Expansion: Requires previous game installed and expands or introduces new story.

There were add-ons, expansions, and sequels.

It could be not right to book definition but this is how it always worked in case of games.

Because you said so? Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you that my definition is better than yours. I'm merely explaining why the "book/movie definition" has as much right to apply to games as the "software definition", because games combine both, and unlike business software are never truly stand-alone in the software sense.

And about MoTB:

"Mask of the Betrayer continues the story of Neverwinter Nights 2 by following the main character, the Shard-Bearer, who is on a quest to determine the nature of his new ability to "eat" souls as a result of the events of the first game."

The end.

Well, wiki can't possibly be wrong, so I shall admit defeat.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Now, youa re plainly being stupid.

You constantly agreeing with me was beginning to freak me out. Now things are back to normal. *sigh of relief.

MOTB doesn't happen without NWN2 OC. They tie directly together. It absically continues the story from right where the OC stops.

Is it a logical and direct continuation? No.

Could MotB fit ANY game with a high level character? BG2, for example? Yes. Why? Because all it needs is a high level character, not the story of the NWN2 OC.

Do you lose anything by playing MotB without playing NWN2 OC? No.

Then what the fuck are we talking about?

Just because you like x better than y doesn't mean they aren't connected.

I honestly don't give a damn whether MotB is related to NWN2 OC. It doesn't affect my enjoyment at all. I'm merely sharing my opinion with you. Don't like it? I'll try to learn to live with it.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

but in the end of MotB you return to swamp village where you came from in NWN2 OC, or you don't and kill gods on the planes which I do like better

 

[Burning Bridges]

Neverwinter Nights 2 Expansion Pack: Mask of the Betrayer

Requires the original Neverwinter Nights 2 to play

 

[Volourn]

"Do you lose anything by playing MotB without playing NWN2 OC? No."

You cna play BG2, and it plays out absolutely fine even if you didn't play BG1. Are you gonna claim that BG2 isn't a continuation of BG1? Of course not.

MOTB is a continuation of the NWN2 OC story.

Next thing you are gonna claim that HOTU isn't a continuation of the NWN1 OC story. Even though, it is. And, that's despite the fact most people think HOTU is way better than the OC.

MOTB is basically the second part of the NWN2 OC. Same PC (whether you actually made a new one from scratch, it is treated as if it had play NWN2 OC), much of your loot is eventually found, you interact with at least one npc from NWN2 OC and he lets' you know what happened in NWN2 OC as if you actually took part in it, and let's you know what potentially happened to other NWN2 OC companions.

So, stop this nonsense about how MOTB is some completely seperate game when it isn't.

It's like pnp in dnd. You make a character, he does x. He moves on and does y. Quests themselves are completely seperate but it is still the continuation of the same campaign with the same character's story continuing.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Neverwinter Nights 2 Expansion Pack: Mask of the Betrayer

Requires the original Neverwinter Nights 2 to play

And how does that refute my argument which denies neither that MotB is an expansion nor that it requires the original game?

 

[Talonfire]

Next thing you are gonna claim that HOTU isn't a continuation of the NWN1 OC story. Even though, it is. And, that's despite the fact most people think HOTU is way better than the OC.

Well it's not; Hordes of the Underdark is a continuation of Shadows of Undrentide.

 

[hiver]

Its a standalone expansion.