Dota 2 Discussion (~Boston Majors & Road to TI7~)

[SerratedBiz]

Righto. Dota2 also comes with the handy ability to Watch any ongoing game and it's sorted by skill level (I dunno whether HoN or LoL have that too). I use that and the filter to pick a game with a certain character and watch how better people play them. Of course, that always ends up with me playing a comparatively horrible game afterwards and crying myself to sleep.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Concerning nature's prophet, jungling isn't really the best way to go. It can be done, but you don't actually put out enough damage to make it effective like an enigma or batrider can. Best role for a nature's prophet i actually the offlane. You can use treants to pull creeps directly into your tower, ensuring you get lots of xp and farm. Syllabear has the same issue. People pick these heroes and jungle, but don't actually get decent farm.

 

[Malakal]

People jungling are, in most cases, noobs that cant handle laning, no matter the hero. To actually get good farm in jungle you need to stack and quickly kill many creeps.

And is bat really good in jungle? I assume with firefly and napalm and stacking?

 

[Merkwürdigliebe]

yeah he is pretty good, slow to get started but once you kill of a couple of big stacks you get a ton of gold and xp. Though he is so good mid that there is little reason to do so.

 

[Humppaleka]

It's kind of weird when people new to Dota immediately call 90% of the heroes OP... Is it something from LoL or games in general to call everything you don't know how to counter or play against OP?

 

[GG Rex]

Righto. Dota2 also comes with the handy ability to Watch any ongoing game and it's sorted by skill level (I dunno whether HoN or LoL have that too). I use that and the filter to pick a game with a certain character and watch how better people play them. Of course, that always ends up with me playing a comparatively horrible game afterwards and crying myself to sleep.

Watching random matchmaking is no use really, people either suck or don't wanna "try" even on 1st page. Just start watching competitive replays, if you don't wanna pay the ones from TI2 are free. (player perspective feature is very interesting).

If you wanna watch the paid-for stuff, go for G-league it's usually levels above the others in skill.

Or watch streams by decent "tryhard" players like Merlini, EternalEnVy (his team won Dreamhack) etc. Especially envy as he likes to commentate beyond "I'm doing X because Y" but also talks about general flow of the game. Guys like Sing/Dendi aren't particularly useful because they're either trolling (sing) or not talking at all or being weird (dendi)

 

[GG Rex]

re: Furion farming woods it's perfectly doable and viable, if your team comp/strategy allows for it.

"laning Furion" in comp games is usually the result of logic "we want to have a Furion, but already have a jungler and/or don't have a solo", he isn't the greatest solo mid or solo offlane either

 

[Damned Registrations]

It's kind of weird when people new to Dota immediately call 90% of the heroes OP... Is it something from LoL or games in general to call everything you don't know how to counter or play against OP?

No, dota heroes really do have much more impactful abilities than LoL heroes. It's one of the reasons I enjoy it more. You'd never see an ult like what Enigma or Bane has in LoL because being stunned that long isn't fun. And Mirana has ashe's ultimate as a normal skill basically, with a 30 sec cooldown. Tons of other examples to be had. Guardian Angel, Time Stop, Ravage, Finger of Death, Doom, Poison Nova, etc. Also try comparing Blink on AM to LoL blinks. Or the fact that an item like Divine Rapier or Aegis exists.

re: Furion farming woods it's perfectly doable and viable, if your team comp/strategy allows for it.

"laning Furion" in comp games is usually the result of logic "we want to have a Furion, but already have a jungler and/or don't have a solo", he isn't the greatest solo mid or solo offlane either

You will basically never see this happen in a competitive game because furion takes 30 years to kill a hard camp with level 1 treants, while Naix takes about 30 seconds and loses nothing from it. And if you get treants again at level 3 you're putting sprout off till level 4, so you're not ganking on the hero with a GLOBAL TELEPORT for the first 6 minutes of the game.

He's an excellent solo offlane if you know how to pull creeps. You probably don't even know what I'm referring to.

 

[SerratedBiz]

Watching random matchmaking is no use really, people either suck or don't wanna "try" even on 1st page. Just start watching competitive replays, if you don't wanna pay the ones from TI2 are free. (player perspective feature is very interesting).

Dunno about that. Again, I'm teh newb, but I often see high-skilled players in the replays. Navi, Digitas (or whateverthefuck they're called), LGD... or, at least, players using such a name. Granted, they could be impostors, but I'd still watch a ca. 1000 wins player regardless of their name. Once again (and again), maybe it's cuz I'm teh newblet.

I really enjoy it though because Player Perspective lets me see how they play, which is especially useful for understanding timing. When / how to prepare for a gank, to evaluate an enemy hero, to pull off combos, to push a lane, etc. I've learned a lot this way.

 

[GG Rex]

re: Furion farming woods it's perfectly doable and viable, if your team comp/strategy allows for it.

"laning Furion" in comp games is usually the result of logic "we want to have a Furion, but already have a jungler and/or don't have a solo", he isn't the greatest solo mid or solo offlane either

You will basically never see this happen in a competitive game because furion takes 30 years to kill a hard camp with level 1 treants, while Naix takes about 30 seconds and loses nothing from it. And if you get treants again at level 3 you're putting sprout off till level 4, so you're not ganking on the hero with a GLOBAL TELEPORT for the first 6 minutes of the game.

He's an excellent solo offlane if you know how to pull creeps. You probably don't even know what I'm referring to.

have you ever seen navi run furion, they in 90% cases (i think 100% but i'll say 90% just to be safe) do it in jungle (when furion was still viable in meta)

yeah he's ok offlaner vs. ok offlaners, but good offlaners or anything more rape him so hard it's not funny

pulling creeps with treant doesn't really work vs. people with a brain because supports will just kill the treant (so easy, unlike say pulling with sylla's bear). this kinda worked as "novelty" but after a few games people stopped falling for it... yes in 1v1 offlane situation you can pull but its totally time inefficient

 

[Metro]

They just have out even more passes. Or, at least, I just got two more in my inventory today. Lol @ anyone who paid for this during the Steam sale.

 

[Hoaxmetal]

Pay for version has a bunch of items, you know. Still retarded but eh.

 

[Metro]

Hats! It's basically the same as the TF2 'deal' they featured as a flash.

 

[Castanova]

I think it's also important to play a bit on your own to figure out what role you're best at. Like, my personality suits a hard carry the best since I like farming and I tend to shy away from fights unless I'm fairly certain to win. That way you can focus on watching players/replays that highlight the particular role you're interested in. For me learning how to hard carry, it was initially a shock just how much time and energy you have to spend farming creeps. In low skill pubs, hard carries are lucky to get more than 150 last hits in a 45 minute game.

 

[Damned Registrations]

People tend to vastly underate the value of farming creeps and overrate kills. A single creep wave is worth about 200 gold, the same as a hero kill. If you're playing a carry, and you stop farming a lane (where you SHOULD be getting EVERY last hit) for more than 30 seconds to get a kill, you're losing gold to do so. It's probably not worth it unless it also saves a teamate or hinders the enemy carry. If you wander across the map for 4 minutes and end up doing nothing, you've basically just pissed away 1600 gold.

Of course, the reality is that if you play a carry properly in a low end pub you'll get a 'support' that nukes the creeps and makes it impossible to farm efficiently, and feeds kills to the enemy. They will then blame you for not carrying 6 minutes into the game and for not out last hitting their 300 damage AoE spell.

 

[ohWOW]

Every death costs enemy carry a big amount of gold, so yes - it's worth it every time.

 

[GG Rex]

Even if you play a 1 role, it's always better to TP in to help if it ensures a successful gank on a 1-3 or a won teamfight/tower, even before you get your "core". Just watch replays of DK.BurNing, the legendary 1 antimage player and note his incredible map awareness and always being with his team when it needs him - which is what wins him games, not exceptional AFK farm ability (the opposite end is mouz.Black, who rices non-stop no matter what happens on the map which often is a big mistake).

In "pubs", *especially* so: without good teamwork it's very hard to deal with falling behind on kills/map control so kills are far more valuable than just giving +gold/XP to the taker + assists.

 

[anus_pounder]

Got 5 invites and 0 interest. Anyone takers ?

 

[Damned Registrations]

But the thing is, a carry can almost never ensure a gank will be successful. A void or a jugg, sure. An AM? No fucking way. If you tp in as an AM and Lina misses the stun like a fucking useless scrub, you've pissed away hundreds of gold.

I have lost MANY games by TPing to help allies or ganking an easy mark and then having it be a complete waste of time when an ally doesn't use a stun and it gets me killed (since the carry is generally both the highest priority and the easiest to kill.) Moreover, most people's idea of a gank is to follow someone travelling faster than them until they've gone past an enemy tower, and then dying to enemy TPs or a simple stun under a tower. I see this shit all the fucking time. 3-4 people running past a tower at the 10 minute mark screaming at me to stop farming and come help them because they're losing. Fuck that shit. 15 minutes later I walk out of the jungle and faceroll 1v3, so even when my shitbag team misses every spell we STILL win fights. And chances are the enemy carry has nothing of interest because he did the same shit as my allies and got 250 gpm by being in every teamfight and getting a dozen kills instead of 200 creeps and 0 deaths.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

But the thing is, a carry can almost never ensure a gank will be successful. A void or a jugg, sure. An AM? No fucking way. If you tp in as an AM and Lina misses the stun like a fucking useless scrub, you've pissed away hundreds of gold.

I have lost MANY games by TPing to help allies or ganking an easy mark and then having it be a complete waste of time when an ally doesn't use a stun and it gets me killed (since the carry is generally both the highest priority and the easiest to kill.) Moreover, most people's idea of a gank is to follow someone travelling faster than them until they've gone past an enemy tower, and then dying to enemy TPs or a simple stun under a tower. I see this shit all the fucking time. 3-4 people running past a tower at the 10 minute mark screaming at me to stop farming and come help them because they're losing. Fuck that shit. 15 minutes later I walk out of the jungle and faceroll 1v3, so even when my shitbag team misses every spell we STILL win fights. And chances are the enemy carry has nothing of interest because he did the same shit as my allies and got 250 gpm by being in every teamfight and getting a dozen kills instead of 200 creeps and 0 deaths.

The assumption is that your allies and enemies can play. Teamwork. Also awareness on your part when TP is needed (frag leading into tower push/Rosh/etc.) and when it's a waste.

In situations when you have retarded allies that don't use skills, well. If your opponents are retarded too then farm away and pwn 1v5. If not then you've lost anyway.

 

[Damned Registrations]

The thing is, if your team is so retarded they can't hold a tower 4v5 during the first 15 minutes of the game, you're not going to make a difference. At best you might get one more enemy killed before they wipe your team. Being in every fight is of huge importance for a support hero. The fact that THEY are usually the ones farming the jungle while the carry defends towers is what tends to lose games.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

If your team is retarded and just feeds and does nothing useful then your only hope is to vastly outplay/outfarm the enemy. It's quite possible actually to win 1v5 on a hero like SF or Drow if all your allies leave (giving you extra gold income) and the enemy team is bad.

Most likely though you're screwed.

 

[Castanova]

I lean toward DR in this argument. Unless you are very high MMR and sometimes even if you are, it's always a gamble to go into early game teamfights with a hard carry. You don't have survivability items yet and you don't know yet if your teammates are any good. Sure, it pays to have map awareness so you can swoop in with a TP and get a couple easy hero kills and then push the tower down... but just because there's some fighting going on near one of my towers doesn't mean I'm giving up creep farm automatically. The number of times I've riced a pub win FAR outweighs the times I've team-fighted to a pub win with a hard carry.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

It's no indicator of "what" and "should" in Dota if I can go AM Dagon lvl5 and Ethereal Blade and win, it just means my opponents are terrible.

 

[Damned Registrations]

The thing is, it's a safe bet that both your opponents and allies are terrible. Trying to work closely with them will latch your MMR closely to theirs. I've gotten my account up into the 'very high' bracket and still routinely get people that make such brilliant decisions as walking into the rosh pit after I've smoked in to solo it (AND explicitly told them not to follow me), trying to steal a 5 stack of ancients from me with a hero that can't tank them for more than 3 seconds before dying, and constantly arguing things like couriers, wards, and revelation items don't matter at all. This is in the very high bracket. These people are complete and utter retards and relying on them would be incredibly foolish. If you're in a lower bracket (and the majority of players are) your allies are likely just as bad or even worse.

What I am trying to say here is that if you are playing with random people, these people are awful and you should treat them as such. Save your own ass before you try pulling them out of the gutter they keep diving into if you want to win.