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Dota 2 Discussion (~Boston Majors & Road to TI7~)

What modes should we play?


  • Total voters
    67

Nathir

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
1,203
Anyway, tried out the patch, after winning 3 games I got calibrated at 4,2k, which is alright I guess. I actually said to my brother before release, that the patch will add a bunch of random shit all over the map to fight over. It kinda did happen. Bigger map is a good change, the wardspots and vision game are more interesting now, and xp gains make more sense now. Gold gain is still too high and the trend of powercreeping heroes and making them easier didn't stop. The portals should get removed, Tormentors and wisdom runes are alright I guess.

Bkb change is the wierdest change. Bkb was a must buy because of the insane damage and cc, it wasn't broken... Now it still is a must buy anyway. It's just worse, and imo it was an iconic item, changing it like this feels wrong. The way they talked about the stun changes, reminded me of some LoL Dev talk. "Be in control of your hero more!". It doesn't even matter because if you get ganked, everyone has a slow these days. Even AM. And in teamfights you will still die in 1-2 stuns if you don't have teammate that can save you.

All in all, the game is definitely more interesting now, probably better than last patch? But the main problems stay the same. Which is basically that we are playing Turbo mode, disguised as normal mode. Too much damage and mobility, too easy to get gold. It's all about good engages and nuking someone asap or saving them.
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
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the only really awful change was re-designing techies. techies used to be such a cool hero and was totally unique to dota but now it's just another basic nuker

true in that a super unique playstyle was lost

but the hero was mostly for fun and in reality had low winrate and was useless

techies really meant 4v5 back in the day and everyone knew it
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
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Bkb change is the wierdest change. Bkb was a must buy because of the insane damage and cc, it wasn't broken... Now it still is a must buy anyway. It's just worse, and imo it was an iconic item, changing it like this feels wrong.

well loads of iconic stuff was changed before like soul ring or hood

problem with bkb was that loads of heroes were useless once a hardcarry gets it

countering 85% abilities in the game with 1 item that costs 3800 g
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Build flexibility also has a lot to do with how people perceive the "meta" and how everyone rages if you go a nonstandard route.
Meta is almost entirely fucking meaningless except as a way to predict what people doing predictable builds are doing. The only meta that matters is the going-on of the specific game you are in at the moment. The rest is just bandwagon bs.

Although the game has changed significantly - and I agree that there's a lot more pigeonholing, especially now with these shard dispensers at 20 minutes, I don't think it's "built" around certain predetermined builds. However, there's now this expectation that i.e. position 3 should build tanky aura items and teammates often rage when someone doesn't go that route. Or when a support hero goes for a more damage-oriented build.
Position probably does create certain itemization expectations but DotA players always expect specific shit out of how you play your hero regardless of whether or not that's a good idea. Like, the idea that Mjollnir is a higher value pickup when you have an Axe on team or that Diffusal Blade is worth going out of your way for as a str carry against Medusa is something that people have a hard time accepting sometimes. They have all these cookiecutter builds designed in a vacuum that do not respond to the conditions of the current game and consider that the only proper way to play those heroes.

With that said, I have definitely noticed that on some heroes Aghs, for instance, is just intended as a mandatory pickup, which I think is just bad design. There are a number of cases where you know the hero is meant to employ very specific items to be useful and doing otherwise leaves you with a crippled toolkit.

I think this partly due to the fact that the game was stuck in a deathball push style for too long.
The deathball push meta was largely a consequence of inflexible playstyles. The kind of player who does the same shit every game and gives up fast the moment it's not working out for him. So yeah, I never really experienced that deathball push meta because I was familiar with split pushing, roaming, stalling the enemy team while another lane got going, TPing behind the enemy team and clearing out their supporting creepwave so they couldn't push, mindgames, long-range harass, etc. Hitting the enemy team where they weren't was a good way of inflicting a lot of damage and taking unattended towers was a good way to get team gold back on track. I pretty much did that shit since the moment I started playing DotA, as I used to be a Nature's Prophet main and would go carry/split pusher on him. TPing behind the enemy deathball and taking out their creeps was one of my favorite things to do, and there wasn't even "bd protection" back then. Pushes would just lose momentum and give up if they were waiting around without creeps. If you bog down enemy deathballs you can also outfarm them as a team because they have 5 people together and you have 3-4 people slowing them down every time while teammates get gold and exp, maybe even towers.

As always, the biggest problem with Dota are the players. Things were much more fun when you could just do your shit without people having a heart attack over it.
You can just ignore the stupid shit. The bigger problem are the players who won't take advice or work with you. I'd take a bad player who was willing to listen and learn over a mediocre one who couldn't be taught shit. Honestly, making people have apoplectic rage meltdowns because I'd just built four boots on Luna ("one for each foot") was just a great bonus. (The real reason I did this shit was because treads are cost-efficient and doing something like phase boots + treads + treads + treads was actually very strong auto & stats, but trolling was a definite bonus.) Four boots Luna, support Spirit Breaker, support Slardar, support Sven (for a brief while when his aghs made his ult into an aura that gave everyone a weaker version of ult), carry Veno, carry Lion, carry Bane, carry Shadow Shaman (the aforementioned game where I noticed early on that my team's sole carry was a useless sack of shit poised to cost us the entire game), carry Warlock, carry Rubick, carry Disruptor, carry Ogre Magi, carry Treant, carry Shadow Demon, caster Axe (Soul Ring, Urn, and Dagon+ult shenanigans), Necronomicon Slardar, etc. And I've gone ganking with just about every single hero. Everything can gank if you know what you're doing and are willing to get maybe 1 or 2 items to help make it happen.

For a while I built old Ethereal Blade on Drow Ranger, Venge, Luna, Medusa, Riki, and more. That item was fucking underrated. Great stats for agi and a good disable or way to save allies that could also amp your nukes while providing damage and a slow. Sometimes I would build Dagon after I had Ethereal Blade (especially on Riki, since his auto was already massive and it was both a troll move and something that actually worked). When Octarine Core came out there was a while that I was just doing OCore Night Stalker for almost perma-night since it moved from 50 sec duration on 80sec cd to 50 sec duration on 60sec cd. OCore is much more effective on duration-based abilities.

I fucked around doing loads of wild shit and taking heroes out of their "intended" playstyle. It was part of what kept the game fun for me and I think an important part of getting good at the game too. You need to understand how roles function and how you can adapt your hero to different roles even if they aren't the normal way to play them. Paying attention to how the game is developing, adapting to the needs of the current game, and exploiting how your enemy team often wont adapt are a big part of getting good at DotA. Situational awareness and being able to read the minimap is important too though. Minimap is often more important than the center of your screen in order to figure out wtf is going on.

I looked through old websites via waybackmachine and it seems to be that way. That's weird though because I clearly remember there being changes where creeps would then get some indicator/animation above them when the ultimate proc'ed. Those hero abilities etc apparently really seem to merge together and dates become fuzzy. Like, Smoke of Deceit was introduced in December 2010 and I could have sworn it came out a year or even two earlier. Hm, maybe it's a sign of getting old.
It's been over 17 years since IceFrog took over development. DotA itself is likely over 20 years old, and almost none of us are playing the old versions anymore. 5.84c still sees some play and many of the really old versions don't even work in the post-v1.24 WC3 world. You can still play pre-7.00 DotA on WC3 iirc, but thanks to Warcraft 3 Reforged shitting up the game, I'm not quite as interested.

It's a matter of risk/reward. If a pusher teams fails to win/get a big enough advantage, the other team will have the advantage at some point. With comeback mechanics, unless the pusher team won, it will inevitably lose in the end, unless the advantage is gigantic. There is also the issue of power creep/scaling. It didn't use to be that way that you could get gigantic advantages by confining the enemy team to their base. There were some, sure, but not thousands of gold worth (and exp and shards now too).
That risk factor is what kept the enemy team in the game, and also if you had a few buybacks on team or you managed to avoid having everyone die on a failed push, you could generally stall out a counterpush long enough for the rest of your team to be back up and have another shot at ending things.

As always, the biggest problem with Dota are the players. Things were much more fun when you could just do your shit without people having a heart attack over it.
In the good old days people would only complain if you basically griefed with your items or did some stupid laning nonsense (like four players wanting to go safe lane -_-). (Playing badly/feeding excluded, of course.) To be fair, players generally sucked. And the worst players you could just always put on your banlist and kick from your hosted games. Just too bad that creating a new Battle.net account was done in less than a minute...
Ah, complaining about kill-stealing happened a lot too for some reason (mostly unjustified even). Some people really didn't understand the concept of a "team".
People complained about all sorts of stupid shit from the start in WC3. I remember because I did carry Nature's Prophet since 2006 and that was definitely not meta back then. But it's true that there were fewer cookiecutter builds and more people doing their own thing. In the WC3 days people don't act like solo mid was some kind of inviolate rule. People did double mid all the time and honestly there are times when double mid is a good call.

the only really awful change was re-designing techies. techies used to be such a cool hero and was totally unique to dota but now it's just another basic nuker
true in that a super unique playstyle was lost

but the hero was mostly for fun and in reality had low winrate and was useless

techies really meant 4v5 back in the day and everyone knew it
Only when played by shitters. Old Techies could definitely carry a team to victory thanks to shit like Stasis and Remote Mines (esp. with Aghs) and was also a master of pushing and the king of turtling. You could also farm really well with Techies later on.

Bkb change is the wierdest change. Bkb was a must buy because of the insane damage and cc, it wasn't broken... Now it still is a must buy anyway. It's just worse, and imo it was an iconic item, changing it like this feels wrong.

well loads of iconic stuff was changed before like soul ring or hood

problem with bkb was that loads of heroes were useless once a hardcarry gets it

countering 85% abilities in the game with 1 item that costs 3800 g
BKB always felt like somewhat of a necessary evil, since otherwise carries were just properfucked by CC and the game would risk turning into a "CC uber alles" shitshow. The fact that they have BKB-piercing stuns is part of what makes Magnus and Beastmaster into underrated carries (BM is also underrated for vision).
 
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Cromwell

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
5,443
countering 85% abilities in the game with 1 item that costs 3800 g

so you had to play around it, force usage to reduce duration and so on. If you were dependandt on your nukes you had to finish early, it was all a matter of tactics
 

Dr1f7

Scholar
Joined
Jan 25, 2022
Messages
1,517
the only really awful change was re-designing techies. techies used to be such a cool hero and was totally unique to dota but now it's just another basic nuker
techies really meant 4v5 back in the day and everyone knew it
idk I guess maybe, but as techies you could really zone the enemy team out of certain areas of the map by fortifying certain areas.
like if my hc needed to jungle, I could plant mines all over his farming area and enemy team wouldn't be able to fuck with him
or if our team was pushing, I could set up a giant mine field at the rear for them to fall back into
then there's the threat of random mines scattered around that could 2-shot enemy supports, or clusters that could 1-shot carries, stasis that could slow enemies down tremendously
just because techies wasn't physically present in all fights doesn't mean he wasn't there "in spirit"

well that stuff might not work so well in divine or immortal but it was very viable in the fun ranks (herald->crusader).. and even then there were some high ranking techies players who were successful

yeah some people were really stupid as techies but I think that comes along with a hero that's so unconventional... but now that's lost forever rip
 
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Lucumo

Educated
Joined
May 9, 2021
Messages
915

I looked through old websites via waybackmachine and it seems to be that way. That's weird though because I clearly remember there being changes where creeps would then get some indicator/animation above them when the ultimate proc'ed. Those hero abilities etc apparently really seem to merge together and dates become fuzzy. Like, Smoke of Deceit was introduced in December 2010 and I could have sworn it came out a year or even two earlier. Hm, maybe it's a sign of getting old.
It's been over 17 years since IceFrog took over development. DotA itself is likely over 20 years old, and almost none of us are playing the old versions anymore. 5.84c still sees some play and many of the really old versions don't even work in the post-v1.24 WC3 world. You can still play pre-7.00 DotA on WC3 iirc, but thanks to Warcraft 3 Reforged shitting up the game, I'm not quite as interested.

It's a matter of risk/reward. If a pusher teams fails to win/get a big enough advantage, the other team will have the advantage at some point. With comeback mechanics, unless the pusher team won, it will inevitably lose in the end, unless the advantage is gigantic. There is also the issue of power creep/scaling. It didn't use to be that way that you could get gigantic advantages by confining the enemy team to their base. There were some, sure, but not thousands of gold worth (and exp and shards now too).
That risk factor is what kept the enemy team in the game, and also if you had a few buybacks on team or you managed to avoid having everyone die on a failed push, you could generally stall out a counterpush long enough for the rest of your team to be back up and have another shot at ending things.


the only really awful change was re-designing techies. techies used to be such a cool hero and was totally unique to dota but now it's just another basic nuker
true in that a super unique playstyle was lost

but the hero was mostly for fun and in reality had low winrate and was useless

techies really meant 4v5 back in the day and everyone knew it
Only when played by shitters. Old Techies could definitely carry a team to victory thanks to shit like Stasis and Remote Mines (esp. with Aghs) and was also a master of pushing and the king of turtling. You could also farm really well with Techies later on.

Yeah, Blizzard really messed things up with Reforged (same with the BW remaster, just not as terrible) which was bad for the community. It's interesting how it has changed over the years. In 2006 basically everyone was still on Battle.net and when you hosted a DotA game, it would fill up in less than 5 seconds. Just two years later, there were a lot of hosting bots around and getting a full game could maybe take 20 seonds. Part of that was due to players using other clients which offered more functions. It's a shame that World of Warcraft took off and they never bothered to improve WC3 Battle.net. So people have to program their own stuff, like Waaagh!TV or proper clients etc.

Yeah, which is what I'm talking about. You didn't have just one attempt at breaking highground because a 9k gold lead wouldn't vanish after you lost your entire team...unlike what it is now.

Tiny + Technies = good. Maybe add Rhasta too... I remember some Youtube video showing off stuff involving those heroes.

/edit: Just saw the Tinker game from yesterday. Absolute cancer.
 
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luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
15,170
Location
Eastern block
countering 85% abilities in the game with 1 item that costs 3800 g

so you had to play around it, force usage to reduce duration and so on. If you were dependandt on your nukes you had to finish early, it was all a matter of tactics

You still have to play around it. Its still a matter of tactics

Its just a very small nerf to bkb
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
countering 85% abilities in the game with 1 item that costs 3800 g

so you had to play around it, force usage to reduce duration and so on. If you were dependandt on your nukes you had to finish early, it was all a matter of tactics
Yeah, playing around BKBs is a big part of the game at higher skill brackets.

the only really awful change was re-designing techies. techies used to be such a cool hero and was totally unique to dota but now it's just another basic nuker
techies really meant 4v5 back in the day and everyone knew it
idk I guess maybe, but as techies you could really zone the enemy team out of certain areas of the map by fortifying certain areas.
like if my hc needed to jungle, I could plant mines all over his farming area and enemy team wouldn't be able to fuck with him
or if our team was pushing, I could set up a giant mine field at the rear for them to fall back into
then there's the threat of random mines scattered around that could 2-shot enemy supports, or clusters that could 1-shot carries, stasis that could slow enemies down tremendously
just because techies wasn't physically present in all fights doesn't mean he wasn't there "in spirit"

well that stuff might not work so well in divine or immortal but it was very viable in the fun ranks (herald->crusader).. and even then there were some high ranking techies players who were successful

yeah some people were really stupid as techies but I think that comes along with a hero that's so unconventional... but now that's lost forever rip
Wtf? Look, dropping mines and establishing map control as Techies is fun and all, and I've done it loads, but old Techies was a beast in teamfights when played right, especially as a sub-initiator. It's pretty fucking simple. Remote Mines + Aghs = Giant fucking AoE damage hitting the entire enemy team (you could hit enemies up to 850 units apart with 1 remote mine) from a huge distance (800 range, 1025 with Aether Lens), on a ludicrously short 8 second cooldown (6 seconds with Octarine Core - imagine being in a teamfight and getting hit with Remote Mines 3 times in 12 seconds - it's only 2250 magic damage, assuming no Veil). If you manage to follow up on someone else's initiation with Stasis for the giant AoE stun you'd also won a teamfight. Stunts like Eul's->blink->stasis+landmine+remotemine+suicide? could be devastating as well. And then there was prepping a battlefield with Stasis and Remote Mines on one or more escape routes so that if shit went south players could just flee in that direction and turn it around.

Only when played by shitters. Old Techies could definitely carry a team to victory

Maybe in 2-3k bracket, it never happened in higher skill tiers
Stop being a fucking noob. In TI5 (2015), Aui was a Techies main, whenever Techies wasn't banned, and his team won the entire tournament.
 
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luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
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and whats your point? no one could play techies like him. I think you are just butthurt

hero was changed because it felt like 4v5 in 99% of games. And it slowed down the game too much and made it miserable for everybody, like delaying the inevitable
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
and whats your point? no one could play techies like him. I think you are just butthurt

hero was changed because it felt like 4v5 in 99% of games. And it slowed down the game too much and made it miserable for everybody, like delaying the inevitable
Are you fucking retarded? I just summed up how Techies works in teamfights. It's the same basic shit Aui did, you fucking tool. There is no special "pro voodoo" that makes heroes like Techies do normally impossible shit. I swear, it's the biggest noob tell when they treat high skill like it's this magical force that renders mechanics irrelevant and lives in a world of its own. Techies has the same abilities and limitations at high level as he does in a regular pub. They execute the same fundamental strat, just with much higher proficiency and adaptability. If you think building Aghs on Techies and bombing people with 800 range Remote Mines in teamfights is too fucking complex, you have fucking brain damage. Other than that he also did blink suicides, which is also something any idiot can do.

You want to know what the biggest tell of pro-tier Techies is? They have a much more conservative mining game because if you go overboard mines will get countered anyway and you will end up behind on gold and exp in addition to not contributing to the team because you wasted too much time on that shit.
 
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Dr1f7

Scholar
Joined
Jan 25, 2022
Messages
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Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
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Are you fucking retarded? I just summed up how Techies works in teamfights. It's the same basic shit Aui did, you fucking tool.
Aaaaaahhhh... dota 2 toxicity... mmmmmhhh...

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/1/12/Vo_necrolyte_necr_breath_02.mp3
People have a really poor grasp of what constitutes toxic behavior these days. Toxic behavior isn't behavior that "makes you feel bad" or foul language but shit that causes actual life problems, usually while playing deceptive/manipulative games.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,904
I'd wager a vast majority of regular Dota players have severe mental/social maladjustment issues and have a co-dependent relationship with the game itself
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,809
I'd wager a vast majority of regular Dota players have severe mental/social maladjustment issues and have a co-dependent relationship with the game itself
The matchmaking is straight-up Nazi mind control. Enforced 50/50 winrates is like being in a gulag. Dota the game is great, but the ranked system is some fucked up sociology experiment
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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Techies has the same abilitis and limitations at high level as he does in a regular pub. They execute the same fundamental strat, just with much higher proficiency and adaptability.

Do you even see what you are typing here? You went from 0 to retard real fast.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Techies has the same abilitis and limitations at high level as he does in a regular pub. They execute the same fundamental strat, just with much higher proficiency and adaptability.

Do you even see what you are typing here? You went from 0 to retard real fast.
This is going to be one of those things where you think you're scoring points against me but are actually demonstrating your own poor attention span and reading comprehension, isn't it?
 
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
1,540
I'm actually starting to come around on the patch.
I just needed to let go of my completionist mindset that comes with 10k games, and realize that I can't do all the objectivies in every game.
Also, after you've played so many games, it's easy to get stuck in your ways.
I still think something like Lotus fountain is just bloat. It doesn't really add much to the game.
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
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Messages
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This is going to be one of those things where you think you're scoring points against me but are actually demonstrating your own poor attention span and reading comprehension, isn't it?

No. The point is that you are full of shit

>techies plays the same in different skill levels
>b-b-but pro players play him a lot better!!

Well no shit

Of course that different heroes play differently in different skill brackets, played by different people. I am certain you are not above 2.5k btw
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
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Messages
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well that stuff (techies) might not work so well in divine or immortal but it was very viable in the fun ranks (herald->crusader)

yes exactly

tech used to get countered easily outside of the bum brackets. illusions, summons etc

even in the bum brackets it only prolonged pointless games
 

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