Dota 2 Discussion (~Boston Majors & Road to TI7~)

[Ninjerk]

Twitch chat is going nuts over the quiet crowd

 

[pakoito]

The Gyro counterpick to the stupid sustained heal strat was genious.

 

[you know what time it is]

Idk if I just don't care about dotes that much anymore or this TI was pretty meh, the meta seems pretty boring despite constant fighting. First finals I didn't even bother to sit through, tuned out halfway through game 2.

 

[Saark]

> Pick 4 scaling cores
> Run around the map as 5 since 10 min
> End at 25 mins

TI4 finals were a masterpiece compared to this shit. Current Dota is retarded. But it is more likely Valvo will give Terrorblade an AoE teamfight ultimate then for them to nerf gold gain in some way.

Thank you for saying it. It's actually ridiculous watching everyone other than pos5 have ~100-300gpm more than they used to, with buybacks being thrown out left right and center with basically no penalty, towers not being any sort of threat so you can just casually dive t1/t2 5minutes into the game etc.

I haven't really followed dota all that much recently, but the last 2 TIs were very disappointing. The best team didnt win today, the smartest team did, and when a trashcan like topson who basically died solo to almost every single other mid in the game can become a double TI champion, something is seriously wrong with the game. Same goes for notail, whos still a whiny little bitch and whos heropool is smaller than bulldogs.

>Remove XP/Gold Talents
>Remove 2-3 bounties
>Bring pack gold-gain penalty after buying back
>Buff towers
>Introduce another hero that counters heavy-heal strats like AA does, theres a reason its been heavily banned for the majority of the last 2 years because its literally the only hero that does anything against the plethora of heal-based heroes/items

Seems like the days of games with heavy initiation/disables are gone. No one plays glimmercape or forcestaff anymore these days because its not needed, the strength of your draft and the synergy of your lineup with a bunch of brawling items is all you need. No more orchids or hexes to control opponents, when you can just rightclick everyone.

 

[Nathir]

Saark

I have nothing against OG and I don't know how true the things you are saying are. I haven't really watched a TI since TI5 and this was the first tourney I was watching Ana/Topson. Other than that, I agree with your suggestions. Something needs to be done. This is basically turbo mode dota disguised as real Dota.

 

[tripedal]

Last year OG felt like it was carried by Ana 100%, this year Topson improved massively. Some absolutely crazy performances. Dying a lot mid is irrelevant, Topson is playing a completely different style from a lane dominator like sumail. Jerax was also incredible. But mostly they felt unstoppable as a team, and extremely creative. One level ahead of everyone else in terms of item choices for example, "smartest team" indeed.

And it felt like they could play any style...obviously they dominated some quick games with io and g2/3 of the finals, but their late game was strong too. Like that crazy lategame anti-armor carry Tidehunter strat, who the fuck even thinks of that? (And which one of your lane dominator mids would play mid tide, with a build that needs level 25 talent and aghs to work?)

I agree the finals were not that exciting though, obviously it's very hard to beat what happened last year (both UB finals and the grand finals).

 

[BlackAdderBG]

Except Anna and Jerax that are on top level other 3 are utter trash. Memes and shit aside they are a fluke team for both TIs. Last final they played outside TI was 2 years ago, still with old OG (s4 and fly). Overall level of this team is like TNC, NiP or Alliance, all of whom beat them regularly throughout the year. For all the stupid shit talked on the panel one observation was quite acute, that teams play their worst dota at TI and OG been quite bad just benefited form it as way better teams fall to their level.

And it felt like they could play any style...obviously they dominated some quick games with io and g2/3 of the finals, but their late game was strong too. Like that crazy lategame anti-armor carry Tidehunter strat, who the fuck even thinks of that? (And which one of your lane dominator mids would play mid tide, with a build that needs level 25 talent and aghs to work?)

You serious? Minus armour is one the most common strategies in the game and Tide carry with tone of minus amour items is nothing new or OG created. VP were using it in tournaments 6 months ago even before 7.22

 

[Saark]

Dying a lot mid is irrelevant, Topson is playing a completely different style from a lane dominator like sumail.

What kind of style benefits from him dying mid 1v1 against his opponent? Unless theres some weird shit going on with him feeding gold so his teammates can kill them later to get a higher bounty, there is no reason to ever die mid in a 1v1 matchup. Hes smart about the game, sure, but he's by no means a great mid player, and this has nothing to do with him playing a different style, which he definitely does. It's just him being mechanically worse than most other mid-players that play in top-tier teams. There's not a single hero you can put topson on that makes me think "wow, the enemy team will have a tough time with that".

At the end of the day it just feels like I shouldn't have to call someone the "Champion of the biggest DotA Tournament in history" with glaring flaws like these.

Except Anna and Jerax that are on top level other 3 are utter trash.

I definitely agree with Jerax being a top-tier support, his tiny in particular has been really damn good. Ana on the other hand threw away a bunch of games this TI by simply overcommitting or not being aware of how far away he was from his team. As a carry mistakes like these cost games, and he pretty much single-handedly gave away game 1 in both the UB finals and the grandfinals.

OG is just the smartest team, and has been for a while. Cebs understanding of the game is incredibly deep, its what carried them during the fly+notail times, and it keeps going now. Hes not the most mechanically gifted player, but he does well enough on the offlane and the amount of heroes he plays at a high level (not very high, mind you) is huge.

You serious? Minus armour is one the most common strategies in the game and Tide carry with tone of minus amour items is nothing new or OG created. VP were using it in tournaments 6 months ago even before 7.22

How some people can say with a straight face that Tide was responsible for winning that game is just mindboggling to me personally. Alchemist was what enabled Tide to farm the jungle to get early gold (after he fed away a kill to Maybe on tide at lv4) to catch back up, its what allowed them to get rosh so Tide would get a free aghanims, thanks to Alch 3rax were already gone, and LGD ran a double-midas strat instead of forcing fights before Tide would hit lv25. Tide literally did nothing that game, other than give away kills and hit 1-2man ravages.

Sure, it almost oneshot the Slark at minute 50, but that was a situation created by anyone else, but not by Topson.

 

[you know what time it is]

Not to get all analytical and shit, but OGs best quality is mental game in a lot of different ways, they don't really tilt, they trust each other and their strategy enough to execute regardless of lane performance and even if it fails they fall back on reactionary plays and tilting in-game behavior, which might not win the map, but will help secure the match by triggering a couple of people on the other side, forcing wonky drafts (attempts to "counter" or outBM) and other nonsense that plays exactly into their style.

Getting stomped on mid to comeback later is nothing new even pubs, let alone in pro teams. I'll take mids like Topson over Sumails of this world any day of the week, who cares about numbers (he wasn't exactly dumpstered every game either and won the lane plenty of times) if the throne is destroyed, dotes' a team game after all.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

I would take a player that cares about his performance and is angry his teammates are shit over flash in a pan player as Topson.
They just go lucky 2 times in a row and by lucky I mean they were having good form just for these 2 tournaments and played really good. Like when we talk about legacy nobody can say with straight face 2018 or 2019 were the years of OG or even for 3 month period that they were dominant. I would say old OG was actually dominant and more worthy of respect for it's play. Also the mental side of the argument "oh OG are just relaxed and play for fun that's why they won both TI" is pure bulshit. If that was a winning strategy or mental state it would lead to other successes beside TI or in other teams that played with same mentality.
I never liked the World Cup model of pro circuit Dota 2 use, where everything depends on one tournament for the whole year, it's just not reflective of what actually were the good teams. Looking just by TI one could assume that with this two consecutive wins OG were some top team and not the below middle of the pack for both years.

 

[you know what time it is]

Clinging to the fluke thing is just being salty at this point. The rest of the year doesn't matter in the context of TI otherwise secret and vp would be top 2 for what 2 or 3 years now? The only fluke this TI was secret going past top 8.

They got a core player that was away for entire year, besides it's hard to justify tryharding after winning the biggest tournament there is. Mental game is their biggest asset, the only other team that treated that level of competition as a turbo game were Wings, and they were unarguably the best.

Hilariously even Sumail calls OG the best team ever.

 

[abija]

FLUKE!!!!!!!!!111111111
- only team that wins 2 TI's so far
- does it back to back with the same roster
- wins group stage and doesn't drop to lower bracket, loses only 5 maps whole tournament and 0 "matches"

Just how retarded are you?

What kind of style benefits from him dying mid 1v1 against his opponent?

He's just very aggressive which forces opponent to adjust. The top tier mids punish him for it but it's not like they play the usual game they do while also killing him as a bonus.
You sound like all the mongos calling ana a shit mid and generated that meme quote from zai's stream.

 

[InspectorRumpole]

Didn't think dota discussions could get any worse than on /r/dota2, but here we are :D
Thankfully there's still /r/Truedota2

 

[Nathir]

What kind of style benefits from him dying mid 1v1 against his opponent? Unless theres some weird shit going on with him feeding gold so his teammates can kill them later to get a higher bounty, there is no reason to ever die mid in a 1v1 matchup. Hes smart about the game, sure, but he's by no means a great mid player, and this has nothing to do with him playing a different style, which he definitely does. It's just him being mechanically worse than most other mid-players that play in top-tier teams. There's not a single hero you can put topson on that makes me think "wow, the enemy team will have a tough time with that".

I think he meant that dying is irrelevant for Topson not because it would be a strategy or have any benefit, but simply that it doesn't matter much for him. He can still just group with his team at 15 min and run around killing everyone. A thing I noticed is that today you can't really deny people anymore by ganking. Look at LGD vs OG game 3. They ganked alchemist 2 times. And he still had radiance, bkb pre 20 mins. Dying early just doesn't affect farm as it used to. You have to really threaten objectives and hg before 25 mins, not gank enemy cores.

Didn't think dota discussions could get any worse than on /r/dota2, but here we are :D
Thankfully there's still /r/Truedota2

Lmao, truedota is populated by a bunch of 2k shitters who think they are ahead of the curve and understand the game way better then anyone else in their bracket.

 

[Life of the Party]

 

[Saark]

Look at LGD vs OG game 3. They ganked alchemist 2 times. And he still had radiance, bkb pre 20 mins. Dying early just doesn't affect farm as it used to. You have to really threaten objectives and hg before 25 mins, not gank enemy cores.

Not just that, but they warded his jungle to see him farming on almost every camp and got 9/12 bounties by minute 10. I definitely agree that ganking isnt nearly as important as it used to be, and it leads to way more defensive support-picks overall. The few aggressive heroes that you would see as a pos4 like shaker or sandking are now pos3s instead, and the rest of them have just vanished from the meta.

 

[Life of the Party]

 

[Alphard]

I once wanted to get into dota but i realized my degree course is much easier than learning the game

 

[ZVERMIX]

>Bring pack gold-gain penalty after buying back
>Buff towers

I strongly disagree with the TI finals hate and OG hate, but this is definitely true. They also need to tone down the comeback mechanics math.
In fact, buybacks were bullshit the last 2 majors, it's crazy that it didn't get patched before TI.

 

[tripedal]

The frog has done it again, what a madman

 

[Sentinel]

This lv30 gets all talents change + couriers being able to plant wards is the stupidest shit ever.

 

[Dawkinsfan69]

Changes seem good to me, since I'm in shit tier MMR and every damn game is a struggle to get support to buy cour/wards. At least we won't need to deal with that anymore

Not that I ever play this game anymore though :/

 

[BING XI LAO]

This patch has a lot of casualising stuff sadly. Dota2 will never be brought back from the hero brawler casual shit mode 7.00 put it into. This is a good patch apart from that.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Totally gonna stack 8 mangoes at game start on pos 5.

 

[Great Deceiver]

I've seen some crazy shit in my day, but this patch really takes the cake.

I don't think the jungle items were a good idea at all. But Dota is a very complex game and it's gonna take awhile for things to become clear. My initial reaction is that at middle levels of play (i.e. Ancient) it's going to incentivize turtling and idiots jungling instead of taking objectives, because the average bad player's goal in Dota has always been to acquire items instead of winning the game.

But we'll see. I think there's going to be a lot of fine-tuning in the next few days.