Game News Divinity: Original Sin Pushed Back to February 28, Swen Vincke Explains the Risks

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Stop replying to Roguey for fucks sake. There's an ignore button. USE IT.

Thats self-imposed censorship

 

[abnaxus]

Smarts have little to do with it. Apparently, independent European game developers can keep the rights to and get royalties on the games they develop and earn profit. American developers not so much.

This depends on deals signed with publishers. Larian got no royalties at all from the first Divinity, forcing them to rush with Beyond Divinity and go into kiddie games development for a few years, until they recovered financially.

Don't forget that even before Divine Divinity, they were doubly fucked by Attic Entertainment. First with the Dark Eye game that fell through, then with Lady Mage and Knight.

 

[:Flash:]

Smarts have little to do with it. Apparently, independent European game developers can keep the rights to and get royalties on the games they develop and earn profit. American developers not so much.

This depends on deals signed with publishers. Larian got no royalties at all from the first Divinity, forcing them to rush with Beyond Divinity and go into kiddie games development for a few years, until they recovered financially.

Don't forget that even before Divine Divinity, they were doubly fucked by Attic Entertainment. First with the Dark Eye game that fell through, then with Lady Mage and Knight.

Huh? The Lady, the Mage and the Knight was the Dark Eye game. It was the only game they ever worked on for Attic.

 

[DeepOcean]

Larian

Swen is officially on the top of my list... above MCA and George Ziets.

Man, I love Larian games but I would only say that when they release something of the quality level of MotB. Divine Divinity 1 and 2 have a interesting gameplay/filler content ratio not exactly ideal.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Larian

Swen is officially on the top of my list... above MCA and George Ziets.

Man, I love Larian games but I would only say that when they release something of the quality level of MotB. Divine Divinity 1 and 2 have a interesting gameplay/filler content ratio not exactly ideal.

MotB is not their style exactly. And its more a matter of Principle. They went into TB, iso cRPG, way before the KS hype showed that there is a market for that. Also, isn't sucking upto Publishers like Obsidian (they do need that though) and niether is it all PR speak like Brian (his Interplay days, he was a pretty brutal publisher himself...and he only returned to cRPGs when he saw neither AAA popamole demons forge worked...nor choplifter hd or i phone or whatever)

 

[Xeon]

I thought Infinitron said Fargo was pretty lenient with developers.

Chaotic, Why do you like TB so much? I don't have a problem personally, Actually I don't think I have any preference but just wondering why do you like TB so much.

 

[Metro]

Asking someone on RPG Codex why they like turn based format is like asking a heterosexual guy why he likes having sex with women.

 

[DeepOcean]

I think codexers hate RTwP for 3 reasons:
1) Infinite engine games RTwP combat is broken. It allow for some fun combat scenarios but it don't get even near to something like ToEE.
2) Codexers assume by default that when a developers says he is going to do it right, this time, he is bullshitting. What isn't something irrealistic as I can name pretty good TB combat systems while I can't name one that is RTwP.
3)RTwP was useful to provide excuses to developers that wanted to turn RPGs into action popamole, trash mob killing for XP farming simulators. You see... RTwP is necessary, It is too slow and boring to kill all those 20 defenseless kobolds in TB, in RTwP is faster, you massacre them very fast, so you aren't bored. RTwP was something more introduced for marketing reasons than to really benefit the gameplay. The tendency of getting more action and less tactics only got worse with the time.

I see RTwP as a gimmick, trying to make a RPG combat system looks more actiony, but the end result is a twitchy fest. There are people who believe that a RTwP system could work if some tought is put on the design but let's see... I'm sceptical. It feels so much more natural to give orders to each of your party members and see him executing the action on the spot, looking to the enemies and knowing exactly what they can on do, where they can go, how many attacks they have, how many enemies my spell is gonna hit with TB. In RTwP, you always give an order but the execution only happens after a pause and as everything can move at same time, things get messed up very quickly. Things like attack of opportunity, initiative, diferent movement speeds can be really complicated to translate in RTwP. I can have fun with RTwP RPGs like Icewind Dale but I know very well that their combat system is just broken.

 

[Infinitron]

Asking someone on RPG Codex why they like turn based format is like asking a heterosexual guy why he likes having sex with women.

But not all heterosexuals are Melcar.

Chaotic_Heretic is trying too hard

 

[Cosmo]

I can have fun with RTwP RPGs like Icewind Dale but I know very well that their combat system is just broken.

And despite all of that, some RTSs are fun to play...
So i agree with Sawyer when he says that in CRPGs combat rules should be built around gameplay, and not the other way around. For now RTwP systems we had the occasion to play were only the sum of the decisions their designers weren't courageous (and thorough) enough to make.
But then again, if designers were more courageous as a whole, turn-base would still be around and kicking.

 

[Achilles]

As a backer I'm totally fine with their decision and I wish them all the best. I like what I see so far, waiting a few more months is not a big deal.

 

[Overboard]

I see RTwP as a gimmick, trying to make a RPG combat system looks more actiony, but the end result is a twitchy fest. There are people who believe that a RTwP system could work if some tought is put on the design but let's see... I'm sceptical.

Try playing 7,62.

 

[cherry blossom]

7.62 is the very definition of a twitchy fest. I find it hard to believe that there are people who enjoy that crap.

 

[Mantic]

Turn-based is better because it's a more pure implementation of the ruleset running in the background, in real-time systems there's always opportunities for player skill to override character skill, to kite enemies, glitch out enemies or use little tricks to cheat and exploit the system because of the openness of real-time movement and combat. RPG combat should just be about the numbers (with some luck involved), real-time brings unwanted things into the equation.

In addition, I like the feel of turn-based combat, it's relaxed and slow, you can take your time deciding what move to make next. I don't care if RT RPG's have a pause button, it's still just the same fast-paced twitchy crap. It's just action bullshit designed to try and lure in popamole gamers.

I can have fun with RTwP RPGs like Icewind Dale but I know very well that their combat system is just broken.

So i agree with Sawyer when he says that in CRPGs combat rules should be built around gameplay, and not the other way around.

Nice cocksucking. The best RPG's are the ones which actively attempt to simulate an RPG system, a cRPG should only be the means to simulate that system in a digital computer-game environment. The "video gamification" of RPGs is what led to Mass Effect, Dragon Age and every MMO ever.

For now RTwP systems we had the occasion to play were only the sum of the decisions their designers weren't courageous (and thorough) enough to make.

Nice historical revisionism. The only fact fact is that every RTwP RPG ever made had shit combat.

 

[SCO]

Lol.

 

[Rake]

The only fact fact quote]

 

[Athelas]

It's just action bullshit designed to try and lure in popamole gamers.

The average popamole gamer despises things like an overhead view, giving orders to a 6-person party, pausing to issue commands, etc. There are far more turnbased (albeit mostly Japanese) RPG's on console's than there are RTwP - are there even any RTwP's on consoles?

Personally, I prefer turnbased, but the lack of simultaneous actions makes it far more strategically limiting than RTwP even in its twitchy, imperfect state.

 

[Infinitron]

As has been stated many times before, most RPGs, both turn-based and real-time, don't have very good combat. Tactical combat games, both turn-based and real-time, tend to have good combat (surprise, surprise).

It's really all about the design focus.

 

[Mantic]

It's just action bullshit designed to try and lure in popamole gamers.

The average popamole gamer despises things like an overhead view, giving orders to a 6-person party, pausing to issue commands, etc.

Doesn't mean they don't try.

As has been stated many times before, most RPGs, both turn-based and real-time, don't have very good combat. Tactical combat games, both turn-based and real-time, tend to have good combat (surprise, surprise).

It's really all about the design focus.

Turn-based is an inherently more RPG style of combat because it comes from P&P. I don't really care how good combat was in Myth or Age of Empire, they aren't RPGs, I don't find it welcome to RPG's, it's an alien action element taken from RTS's and other games and shoehorned into RPGs to appeal to another audience, no different than Fallout 3/NV using FPS combat to appeal to that audience. Some might be "OK" with sacrificing some of the RPG-ness of a game to have "fun" action combat, but I would not, because that makes it less of an RPG. Even if the combat is "better" or more "fun".

The main issue is that at it's heart RT combat is action-y, so if you want to make it "better" then you need to make better action combat. Going "half-way", which was the compromise in the Infinity Engine games and also games like Morrowind, ended up pleasing neither the grognards nor the action-fags, the combat was real-time yeah but you still had attack and saving rolls, combat 'phases
, basically a turn-based system under the hood, same with Morrowind you had an RPG (not an action) system running under the hood. The only way to prevent decline in RPGs is to make RPGs with pure turn-based RPG combat, not pseudo-action, pseudo-RPG combat that pleases nobody, because the only way to improve that kind of combat is either to go full turn-based or full action.

 

[Infinitron]

Turn-based is an inherently more RPG style of combat because it comes from P&P.

Uh, okay. Don't care much about P&P, personally.

I don't really care how good combat was in Myth or Age of Empire, they aren't RPGs, I don't find it welcome to RPG's, it's an alien action element taken from RTS's and other games and shoehorned into RPGs to appeal to another audience

RTSes, okay.

The main issue is that at it's heart RT combat is action-y, so if you want to make it "better" then you need to make better action combat.

Wait a minute, wait a minute. RTSes aren't action games.

Can't we accept that a game can be real-time WITHOUT being an action game? Are Paradox games action games?

 

[Mantic]

Paradox makes grand strategies? And yes I think RTS's are action-y and especially twitchy considering you can't even pause them, stuff like in a typical match having to control catapults firing at walls at the same time as archers, cavalry and spearmen and all using them to target enemy units which they have an advantage against, the fact that RTS have been pretty made into competitive multiplayer "sports" based on nothing but clicking the fastest underlines my point.

 

[Infinitron]

Paradox makes grand strategies?

Yes. They're in realtime. Also, remember the Geoscape in the original X-Com? No action game that.

And yes I think RTS's are action-y and especially twitchy considering you can't even pause them, stuff like in a typical match having to control catapults firing at walls at the same time as archers, cavalry and spearmen and all using them to target enemy units which they have an advantage against, the fact that RTS have been pretty made into competitive multiplayer "sports" based on nothing but clicking the fastest underlines my point.

I'm not talking about Starcraft here...

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

I thought Infinitron said Fargo was pretty lenient with developers.

Chaotic, Why do you like TB so much? I don't have a problem personally, Actually I don't think I have any preference but just wondering why do you like TB so much.

And FFS if you expect a reply from me, TAG or QUOTE me. Don't be like Pretty Princess.

well, Deepocean and Mantic give what I assume is the hivemind consensus over TB superiority (implementation of rules, designer has more complete picture of possible player actions, RTwP is AKSHUN popamole, player skill overriding character skill with kiting etc) which give the technical reasons and what not.

I am not against RT (Darksouls and Shadow Tower are ranked p. high on my favorite games list. Fuck kings Field though...couldn't complete it)
If the designer has ballz, they cshould cook up something liek dark Souls (although it usually ends up being shit combat like Twitcher2)


My reasons for loathing RTwP is:

IE games weren't true RT either. it was pseudo 6 sec rounds bullshit. missing something half a second causes you to watch 6 seconds of bullshit which you just lost control of (3 in kotor iirc). And I p. much hate the IE games except PST (and MotB if you count the aurora games too)
Main Reason is, I play most of my games drunk. TB complements that very well.

And I am massively butthurt that RTwP is considered an alternative for TB combat in cRPGs (the pseudo round bullshit) with all tis inherent fault

Was really pissed at larian, when they covered up the DOS artwork in reaction to that SJW crap though.

Asking someone on RPG Codex why they like turn based format is like asking a heterosexual guy why he likes having sex with women.

 

[Overboard]

7.62 is the very definition of a twitchy fest.

Let me guess, you don't know how to adjust settings?

 

[SCO]

It's just action bullshit designed to try and lure in popamole gamers.

The average popamole gamer despises things like an overhead view, giving orders to a 6-person party, pausing to issue commands, etc. There are far more turnbased (albeit mostly Japanese) RPG's on console's than there are RTwP - are there even any RTwP's on consoles?

Yeah. Rather good ones even (in terms of combat). Growlanser wayfarer of time is one.