Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Divinity: Original Sin Pre-Release Thread

Jestai

Augur
Patron
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
135
6 choices with the wheel? More like 5^layers_of_investigate+1! Please, bring this infinitely powerful mechanism to D:OS.

That's the way the wheel's been used so far.

Mechanic being used badly =/= bad mechanic.

I don't really see much difference between the wheel and interactive text - only their graphical representation differ.
Yeah sure. It's pretty much the same anyway.

Dialog mechanisms are like cakes. Some are good, some are bad. So far, I've only been served wheels which tasted like shitcakes (with extra shit on top aka investigate) and I'm starting to get suspicious. Then again, maybe the cook mistook shit for chocolate 5 times ? Right now, I'd rather have a solid list, which I know tastes like a good fruitcake most of the time, than another one of these wheels.

Anyway, the wheel is a circular thing. If video games have taught me something, it's definitely that radial interfaces ALWAYS suck. No exception.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,636
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
sea Again, it wasn't my intention to say that Alpha Protocol isn't reactive enough. This conversation is about the dialogue wheel. The idea that the dialogue wheel can always be just as good as any another dialogue interface is absurd. It's like a guy telling you bicycles are just as effective at transportation as cars because he lives in a mountain valley without paved roads, or something.

In any case, engaging in acts of murder was just an example. It could be something more within the bounds of the game's "rules", so to speak. Doing this quest before that quest. Talking to this person before that person. By dividing gameplay into chunks like Alpha Protocol does, the space for doing things like that is reduced. Which in turn, makes the dialogue wheel system more viable.
 

Lancehead

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,550
Alpha Protocol's narrative structure is anything but simple

Yes, it is.
How is it simple? As sea pointed out there are many variables that are constantly changing. Even a simple action such as changing the hub can trigger a reaction.

E.g. When you go meet this informant (Grigori), how you behave with him, what other missions you have done prior to meeting him and how you completed them can have a real impact on how he responds, and his response has an effect on how the later missions play out, what guards you face in the next mission, how the main character in the next mission responds to you, what weapons you have available to buy etc.

This conversation is about the dialogue wheel. The idea that the dialogue wheel can always be just as good as any another dialogue interface is absurd.
Except that wasn't my point as I've repeated I don't know how many times.
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
the other item it presupposes is that the dialogues are going to be voiced,
How?

Minimalist interface to focus on "cinematic" aspect of the game; text generally hidden save for the wheel/subs. In fact, this system is only really "necessary" for games with cinematic aspect/goal, since PS1/2 era jRPGs worked fine with regular dialogue systems.

since, if they aren't voiced, why would you bother creating such a system to begin with?

Because controller, and general console UI. Not because of VO.[/quote]

Because VO/cinematic. See above for UI/controller.

Voice-acted games presuppose lower volume of text and information because VA is costly, and the storage of VA data takes a fair amount of space.

I know this point follows from your earlier point which I disagree with, but still, this is also I disagree with. Games with keywords or phrases (Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Alpha Protocol) have a lot more voice work on the pc's part because they don't have to display all that text.
Um, that's exactly what I said? Except that audio storage formats are hundreds of times more bulky than text storages. Most storyfaggy, text-heavy games have a lot more info in them than pure voicework ones.

This further limits the amount of possible responses and dialogue options, and world-reactive c&c that can easily be filled by textual feedback but not by voice.

At which point what you have is no longer a good RPG.

Again, I point to Alpha Protocol, a game that has some of the most deep and complex narrative reactivity of any game. And it only uses 4 phrased dialogue options per wheel.

AP is a very narrow-scope ARPG. Its dialogue format works for the format, but try to fit it into, say, Torment-scope game and watch how much it'll cost you.

Edit: Also, Deus Ex HR.
Same.

I'm not arguing for a dialogue wheel for D:OS, I simply don't find enough reason to despise it.

I don't despise it. It's just useless in cRPGs.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Remember the aliens in KotOR and how they used the same alien speech loops over subtitles? I wonder, in a lower-budget game, what people would think if you had the vast majority or even all characters speak that way. You wouldn't have the boringness of having just blank silence, but you'd also have the ability to convey emotion through tone of dialogue, if not the words themselves. In fact, I suspect KotOR II used more non-English-speaking characters specifically to stretch the budget out more to save it for more significant characters. It's not so different from having Baldur's Gate style "speech blurbs" to go along with conversation text.
The Sims gets away with it. It would be an interesting experiment.
 

Lancehead

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,550
AP is a very narrow-scope ARPG. Its dialogue format works for the format, but try to fit it into, say, Torment-scope game and watch how much it'll cost you.
AP's narrative design is anything but narrow in scope. It's dialogue format wouldn't work with Torment not because of scope of narrative design, but because of limited number of dialogue options (no, that's not an indication of narrative scope) per wheel, and partly because one would miss the well written full sentence dialogue lines.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,636
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
How is it simple?

Dude, it's a mission-based corridor shooter. That is a simple structure, period. Don't you see how this makes everything simpler? Yes, there are lots of flags. Those flags are incredibly easy to manage because of the game's simplistic structure and there would be many more if the game's structure was more open.
 

Monty

Arcane
Joined
Mar 24, 2012
Messages
1,582
Location
Grognardia
because of limited number of dialogue options (no, that's not an indication of narrative scope) per wheel, and partly because one would miss the well written full sentence dialogue lines.
Exactly the reasons why the wheel generates the 'hate' around here you were questioning, which brings us right back to the start of this monumental derail.
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
AP is a very narrow-scope ARPG. Its dialogue format works for the format, but try to fit it into, say, Torment-scope game and watch how much it'll cost you.
AP's narrative design is anything but narrow in scope. It's dialogue format wouldn't work with Torment not because of scope of narrative design, but because of limited number of dialogue options (no, that's not an indication of narrative scope) per wheel, and partly because one would miss the well written full sentence dialogue lines.
Project scope, not narrative scope.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
The Sims gets away with it. It would be an interesting experiment.
The idea is you would have a game where you are among a whole bunch of diverse alien species or different tribal groups all with different languages. If justified in-universe I think it could be a pretty clever way to hide budgetary limitations.

By dividing gameplay into chunks like Alpha Protocol does, the space for doing things like that is reduced. Which in turn, makes the dialogue wheel system more viable.
Again, bullshit. How many games can you cite where doing quest A before B, or visiting location X before Y substantially impacts the narrative? In most games, it has no effect whatsoever, especially those big open-ended games that we like to hold up as providing lots of narrative and gameplay freedom. Usually it amounts to "you pissed off these guys so now you can't do quests they're involved with." Simplistic and effective, but not really "reactive" either.

How many games let you piss off faction A, but then negotiate with them again to let you complete quest 1, and 2, but not quest 3, because they're still too mad at you, but then you can work your way up and eventually regain their trust, only to backstab them again and bring about their righteous fury? How many do this in a way with detailed and scenario-specific dialogue? I'll count them: fucking none. New Vegas is probably the only game I can think of that gets even close to this, and its system still has a lot of holes in it - some quests are extremely reactive while others are illogically unreactive. And none of that is contingent on the specific configuration and presentation of story.

Dividing gameplay into chunks does not limit or reduce Alpha Protocol's narrative depth and expanse, because no other games have demonstrably taken good advantage of their open-ended qualities to provide it. The vast majority of open-ended games actually have less nuance, less reactivity, less story period, because it's harder to account for the infinitesimal combinations of actions the player can take, and at best they will use superficial systemic reactivity as described above (i.e. piss off a town, they go hostile), which isn't really comparable to the detailed and subtle character and plot changes you get in Alpha Protocol or hell, even a BioWare game like Dragon Age 2, which actually has game-spanning narrative consequences for actions (yeah, I went there).

You're dancing in circles and denying that this was your point all along because you can't think of an answer that makes sense. If it wasn't your point, why did you say it to begin with? And that doesn't change the fact that it's still flat-out wrong.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,636
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
sea
Again, it wasn't my intention to say that Alpha Protocol isn't reactive enough. This conversation is about the dialogue wheel.

Is the dialogue wheel just as effective as any other dialogue interface for reactive stories with lots and lots of options and possibility space, yes or no?
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Alpha Protocol limits player input compared to many other RPGs. It provides deeper reactivity to those inputs, but still limits them.

This doesn't strike me as a controversial statement.

The dialog wheel is a component of the reduced inputs. I don't know the causal relationship (did they use a dialog wheel because dialog options were already reduced or vice versa, or were both cause by an external cause), but they're clearly related.
 

MicoSelva

backlog digger
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
7,522
Location
The Oldest House
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Is the dialogue wheel just as effective as any other dialogue interface for reactive stories with lots and lots of options and possibility space, yes or no?
It can provide the same possibilities, but is less convenient to use the more possibilities there are in a dialog.
 

Lancehead

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,550
How is it simple?

Dude, it's a mission-based corridor shooter. That is a simple structure, period. Don't you see how this makes everything simpler? Yes, there are lots of flags. Those flags are incredibly easy to manage because of the game's simplistic structure and there would be many more if the game's structure was more open.
But that easier management of those flags doesn't implicate any simplicity on part of narrative structure as it pertains to reactivity through dialogue, which is the whole point of this particular debate. Whether the flags make things easier or not, AP remains a complex narrative with tons of reactivity that is facilitated through dialogue that uses the wheel. That is a fact. And my argument builds on that.

What my argument does not do is explore the possibility of the wheel's suitability to games like D:OS.

because of limited number of dialogue options (no, that's not an indication of narrative scope) per wheel, and partly because one would miss the well written full sentence dialogue lines.
Exactly the reasons why the wheel generates the 'hate' around here you were questioning, which brings us right back to the start of this monumental derail.
As for the first, how many games there are that actually use the multitude of dialogue options that actually correspond to reactivity? Not even PS:T does that, with many of its dialogue options used for exposition, not reactivity. And that exposition can be retained with fewer number of dialogue choices. But still, given the option I'd pick more dialogue options over less.

As for the second, I too prefer full sentence dialogue lines (which in turn means a preference of list over wheel), but don't many classic cRPGs use keyword systems that are liked by many here on the Codex?
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
Is the dialogue wheel just as effective as any other dialogue interface for reactive stories with lots and lots of options and possibility space, yes or no?
Since you won't stop bringing that up regardless of the invalidity of your other comments:

Yes.

The reason why is because the dialogue wheel is simply a tool for presenting player dialogue options. That's it. Even if we accept that we are limited to a total of 6 possible significant dialogue choices, hell, even 4, that affords as much or even more depth and nuance to narrative than games using traditional dialogue trees or keyword systems. Give me an example where you have 10 different dialogue options and all lead to substantially different outcomes. Not even Planescape does this.

The problem you have is that you are hung up on the assumption that the dialogue wheel in some way limits what the player can do or say with respect to narrative depth. But I don't buy that offering the player 4 versions of a line, with "truth" and "lie" next to them, is something that substantially impacts gameplay because it has no in-game consequence, only player LARPing consequence. While it's true that game narrative is a fusion of the story and game experience provided by the game creators and the player's interpretation and interaction with that game, you could then make the argument that any story can be infinitely deep because any player can LARP whatever they want into it, and that's not a reasonable discussion to have in the context of RPG dialogue system design.

Would it blow your mind if I told you that you can achieve equal results with a dialogue wheel to more traditional systems? It's true, because the dialogue wheel's limited options have nothing to do with how many total options can possibly be provided by it. Furthermore, the configuration of the dialogue tree or the player's lines as delivered can be changed based on context. Maybe a dialogue option labeled "revenge" can give you two vastly different lines and outcomes depending on what has previously happened in the story. And there's nothing stopping you from including skill checks with failure and success states, or nested dialogue wheel choices - for example, one dialogue node dedicated to selecting an "overall" response to a topic, followed by another node where the player can select a more nuanced response.

In other words, yes, I think everything you're saying about dialogue wheels compared to traditional dialogue systems is bullshit. You are conflating the presentation of dialogue options with the total possible number of options, the configuration of the dialogue tree itself, and the possible depth and integration of RPG mechanics with the dialogue wheel itself.

What matters about designing RPG-style dialogue is the breadth, variety and consequence in the meaning of the dialogue lines that the system facilitates. Strictly speaking, I have yet to see a game which is substantially limited this way even by providing at most 2 choices at every node. This is because the only significant limitation on the reactivity and depth of a game's dialogue system is the amount of unique content the game's developers can produce, not the number of options it can show you in a menu.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,636
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
But that easier management of those flags doesn't implicate any simplicity on part of narrative structure as it pertains to reactivity through dialogue, which is the whole point of this particular debate.

No, the point of this debate is that you made the statement that dialogue wheels are "just a visual representation" that in no way differs substantively from traditional dialogue interfaces:

Why the hate for dialogue wheel? It's just a visual representation...?

In other words, any CRPG could be modified to use dialogue wheels with no effect on the quality of its dialogue. And now you're shocked, SHOCKED that people are taking issue with that.

Whether the flags make things easier or not, AP remains a complex narrative with tons of reactivity that is facilitated through dialogue that uses the wheel. That is a fact.

And why the fuck should I give a fuck about the "tons of reactivity" in a corridor shooter?
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
What sea? The truth and lie options in PST affect your alignment which affected how you were reacted to and what equipment you could use. That is not just larping.

Now each choice didn't cause a reaction, but that's actually a good thing and goes back to my point about fewer player inputs. Reactions only occurred when you made a series of choices that lead to them.

Hell, sticking with new age popamole, why did Obsidian ditch the dialog wheel for F:NV if it can accomplish the same goals as a list of options?
 

MicoSelva

backlog digger
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
7,522
Location
The Oldest House
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
I don't buy that offering the player 4 versions of a line, with "truth" and "lie" next to them, is something that substantially impacts gameplay because it has no in-game consequence, only player LARPing consequence.
I think You need to take a closer look at PST, sea. Every "truth" or "lie" had a consequence, even if it was a minuscule shift towards a certain alingment, invisible to the player. Such subtleties would be impossible in a game with a dialog wheel and these subtleties where one of the reasons that PST was such a great game.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
I think You need to take a closer look at PST, sea. Every "truth" or "lie" had a consequence, even if it was a minuscule shift towards a certain alingment, invisible to the player. Such subtleties would be impossible in a game with a dialog wheel and these subtleties where one of the reasons that PST was such a great game.
It was a bad example. But either way there is no reason you can't split nuanced options across multiple dialogue nodes with the proper dialogue structuring.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,636
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It was a bad example. But either way there is no reason you can't split nuanced options across multiple dialogue nodes with the proper dialogue structuring.

What is "proper dialogue structure"? Alpha Protocol has linear, cinematic, non-repeatable conversations. That's not a good fit for every genre of game.
 

MicoSelva

backlog digger
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
7,522
Location
The Oldest House
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
It was a bad example. But either way there is no reason you can't split nuanced options across multiple dialogue nodes with the proper dialogue structuring.
But is there any reason to do it and make the system more complicated to use while gaining nothing?
 

Lancehead

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,550
But that easier management of those flags doesn't implicate any simplicity on part of narrative structure as it pertains to reactivity through dialogue, which is the whole point of this particular debate.

No, the point of this debate is that you made the statement that dialogue wheels are "just a visual representation" that in no way differs substantively from traditional dialogue interfaces:

Why the hate for dialogue wheel? It's just a visual representation...?

In other words, any CRPG could be modified to use dialogue wheels with no effect on the quality of its dialogue. And now you're shocked, SHOCKED that people are taking issue with that.

I actually meant that in the context of keyword systems, as ForkTong said he's for that. Regardless, I've elaborated my argument in later posts, so I don't see how my initial enquiry can be used to disregard the rest of my posts.

Whether the flags make things easier or not, AP remains a complex narrative with tons of reactivity that is facilitated through dialogue that uses the wheel. That is a fact.

And why the fuck should I give a fuck about the "tons of reactivity" in a corridor shooter?
Because the debate is about reactivity through the dialoguewheel, and not whether it occurs in a corridor shooter or a sandbox game?
By all means, don't give a fuck about reactivity in a corridor shooter, but do give to reactivity through dialogue wheel as it's the actual debate.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom