Incline Disco Elysium - The Final Cut - a hardboiled cop show isometric RPG

[Laz Sundays]

No, I couldn't. I was specific when saying "not looking to arge too much". If I argued opinions and impressions that come natural to me, I'd be a part of codex inventory. This is what I see. That is what you see. None of us developed this game. If you want truths, go to the sauce. Ask them, and post answers. I'm just a passenger.

You're wrong. On multiple levels. It's not just my opinion (although I think so). You see, I am not asking you for "truths". I have already seen the truth, because I read the developers' devblog, so I possess all the answers on the matter. I am asking you for your opinion, because I am curious why you reached the conclussion you mentioned.

I doubt it's just because of presentation, because by the same token you could call Planescape: Torment a point & click adventure game too, as it is - likewise - an isometric game. And I could also mention adventure games where you play in first person perspective.

By the way, here is the link to my previous post containing links to the relevant devblog posts concerning the design of Disco Elysium (and how it's centered around RPG) in case anyone is interested:

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/d20-is-terrible-so-where-are-the-2d6-crpgs.141413/post-7673996

"Your'e wrong" and "I'm asking your opinion" do not compute. I gave you my opinion and why I reached that conclusion. It feels and behaves like many p&cs I've played. Back in the day when humans were familiar with stories like Emperor's New Robe, we called these point and click adventures. Depth and other aspects of the game were irrelevant to this core impression. Visual novel was a movie. I'm a dead end when it comes to debating these.

 

[V_K]

Discworld Noir

It's a very weird way to argue that something belongs to the Adventure genre by comparing it to a game whose whole PR discourse revolved around how it does away with the conventions of the Adventure genre.

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

Discworld Noir is actually full of puzzles. Most of them are inventory-based puzzles. It's just that this inventory is partially disguised as notebook entries (as well as a collection of scents). But the principle is the same. Click on the entry 'corpse hanging upside down', select it as an item, and apply it to the strange writing on the wall. The strange inscription immediately ceases to be strange, because it becomes clear that it is simply written upside down. The same with scents.

Pretty typical P&C gameplay. There is nothing similar to this in Disco Elysium.

 

[Laz Sundays]

Discworld Noir

It's a very weird way to argue that something belongs to the Adventure genre by comparing it to a game whose whole PR discourse revolved around how it does away with the conventions of the Adventure genre.

Strange. To me, DE breaks the conventions of adventure p&c in almost the same way. Breaking the convention does not make it a less p&c, neither did it made it for DN.

Discworld Noir is actually full of puzzles. Most of them are inventory-based puzzles. It's just that this inventory is partially disguised as notebook entries (as well as a collection of scents). But the principle is the same. Click on the entry 'corpse hanging upside down', select it as an item, and apply it to the strange writing on the wall. The strange inscription immediately ceases to be strange, because it becomes clear that it is simply written upside down. The same with scents.

Pretty typical P&C gameplay. There is nothing similar to this in Disco Elysium.

by that description, Disco has exact same "puzzles" that you solve through interactions and examining stuff from inventory so you can progress further. I get it, you want it to be an RPG badly. It ain't, 70% of it is p&c adventure.

 

[Laz Sundays]

Bottom line, since I said I wouldn't argue: I love Disco. Best game ever. I'm calling it a p&c adventure with RPG elements, and will be recommending it to others in my life as such. Already did so 2 times tonight.

You can:
a) suck my dick
b) foam about it and call me names
c) accept that I LIKE the damn game and move on.

That is all. I do not care about any of you. You are not my friends, your opinion is second hand if not lower to me. I will answer your inquiries, but go no further. This is how I am.

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

by that description, Disco has exact same "puzzles" that you solve through interactions and examining stuff from inventory so you can progress further. I get it, you want it to be an RPG badly. It ain't, 70% of it is p&c adventure.

I do not consider DE an rpg. I barely consider it a game. My point is that it has LESS real gameplay than p&c adventures. It does not qualify as an rpg, and it does not qualify as a p&c adventure. It has less real gameplay than Discworld Noir, in particular.

DE doesn't have the same puzzles, cut the crap and stop being a retard. Just replay Discworld Noir. In it you first chose one object from one of your three "inventories" (it can be a real object, or an entry from journal, or a scent) and then use it on any active point on the screen. Now, that's the real p&c gameplay. You need to use different objects on other different objects. You can try to use any object on any character in the game. Yes, as a rule it does not give a needed result, but the possibility is there. You have to guess which object to use in each specific situation. The correct object is not automatically offered to you as one of the lines in the dialogue. You can also use objects from your inventories with each other. Like comparing scents, or making connections in your diary, or even combinig real objects.

If anything, I do not agree with V_K's implication that Discworld Noir is somehow an atypical p&c adventure game.

By comparison, in DE all the gameplay consists of clicking on different answers in the dialogues and also clicking on different colored spheres. You can't select any object from the inventory and use it on any active point. You can't make connection betweeen entries in your diary, you can't apply one clue to another. You literally can't do anything but click through pretentious dialogues and monologues one by one.

 

[Harthwain]

"Your'e wrong" and "I'm asking your opinion" do not compute.

It is entirely possible to have an opinion AND be wrong at the same time. I was asking for your opinion merely out of curiosity, knowing fully well that you're wrong. Especially after the claim that "nobody noticed that Disco Elysium is point & click adventure game" when it is - literally - one of the most common (if not THE most common) arguments against it being an RPG.

 

[Laz Sundays]

Already gave opinion, do whatever you want with it. Not willing to discuss it further

 

[rusty_shackleford]

it's not an adventure game because it's a digital gamebook, I get the feeling either many of you are too young or they were simply not popular in your countries. The argument of "it has an RPG system!" has nothing to do with anything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Fantasy

The series distinguished itself by mixing Choose Your Own Adventure-style storytelling with a dice-based role-playing element included within the books themselves.

Each Fighting Fantasy gamebook requires the reader to create their character, randomly assigning scores to three statistics (skill, stamina, and luck).[4] These, in conjunction with rolling six-sided dice, are used to resolve skill challenges and the combat sections. Some titles use additional statistics or conflict resolution mechanics; most also require the reader to keep an inventory of items.

Fighting Fantasy is to D&D as Disco Elysium is to Fallout.

 

[Theodora]

Most people who discard the RPG label for it argue that it doesn't have a combat system which is supposedly an integral part of an RPG, but I don't see why that should be the case. Why add a mediocre combat system that's superfluous to the experience being provided? CRPGs at the end of the day are an adaptation into another medium of tabletop RPGs and the latter do not necessarily require combat even when a particular system accounts for it. So if I can have a full campaign of some TTRPG without a single combat encounter (while still rolling dice for other things that impact the narrative which the DM will communicate through dialogue), why can't the same apply to a CRPG adapting that particular style of campaign?

The funny thing is, constant combat would be so out of place in DE and completely demeaning to how believable it is, while diminishing the sense of roleplaying it so elegantly executes on. Harriet going around getting into fights in a social sense can make sense, sure, but not beating up or otherwise disposing of mobs of some nebulous opposing force, when the biggest opponent he has is very arguably himself.

Nevermind that being beaten by enemies doesn't offer the same interesting narrative branching that failing rolls in dialogues etc. does.

it's a boring piece of shit for boring incels who'd like to act out their political obsessions

Nah, it's for people who can take a joke about their politics. Ultimately most political options make you seem eccentric at best, to annoying or mad at worst.

 

[V_K]

If anything, I do not agree with @V_K's implication that Discworld Noir is somehow an atypical p&c adventure game.

It's not my opinion, I haven't played it. I just distinctly remember every single review mentioning how it reimagines the Adventure formula.

To me, DE breaks the conventions of adventure p&c in almost the same way. Breaking the convention does not make it a less p&c, neither did it made it for DN.

To break with the conventions of X, something must first be situated in the context of X. DN was explicitly marketed as an Adventure; DE was not.
Exhibiting a urinal in an art gallery breaks with the conventions of art. But it doesn't mean that everything that looks like a urinal is now an art piece.

 

[Gruncheon]

It's not communist AT ALL.

The game's setting is literally a failed commie state, and the game constantly deals with themes about the relation between the local people, culture and goverment with the ideology of communism
That Kurvitz guy - the game's lead designer and writer (writting about of the game's text) - literally admitted that he grew up with Lenin and that his ideals are inescapable in his country
He even owns a bust of Lenin, that originally belonged to a somewhat important Estonian communist writer

I am sorry, but Disco Elysium quite clearly is a game where communism IS indeed at the core of the plot and experience

Meh, I'd say that it's more of a philosophical game with strong existentialist underpinnings. And if one wants to talk about ideology, then it has much more in common with Mark Fisher than with Marx - particularly the Fisherian notion of 'lost futures' which equally extends to the failed monarchy and the failed revolution, both being lamented by different characters like Rene and Gascon respectively. And the status quo of the setting basically serves as a backdrop for investigating existential angst among alienated individuals living under the soulless managerial regime propped up by the Moralintern (which partly ties in with Fisher's critique of capitalist realism). So if anything is at the core of the experience, it's social alienation in contemporary society and the ways in which various people cope with it (whether through in-group solidarity as is the case of the Hardie Boys, the people from the RCM's Precinct 41 and even Gaston & Rene or through ideology as is the case with the NPCs representative of the various ideological trends present in the game; with the protagonist being able to choose whichever or even both paths at once - comradeship with Kim and possible reintegration into the broader police in-group at the end, ideology with its various trends that can even be eclectically combined by Harrier).

Great post, but you're giving a very benign view to the game. From what I can remember (I played it once, immediately on release), the game clearly plays favourites. The 'tragedy' of the setting is that Communism failed. I don't think there's ever really a suggestion that Communism is intrinsically evil, that it's materialistic, that it elevates the trash of society at the expense of its best and brightest - all the standard (and basically correct) criticisms that come from the right. The issue in DE is that Communism is basically the realm of the Platonic Forms, we can intuit it and perhaps move closer to it, but it always remains tantalisingly out of reach while we're stuck in the ugly material world of Capital. I heard people defend the game on the basis that it makes fun of everyone equally. This is technically true but substantively wrong. The game makes fun of Communism in the way that you might make a bittersweet, slightly caustic, joke about a friend that's passed away because it's too painful to confront the harsh reality of their being gone. The game makes fun of Liberalism/Rightism in the way that you might 'joke' about wanting to kill some guy that you actually, genuinely hate. There's loads of other stuff I could cite - the way addiction is treated (benignly), the way concepts like duty or obligation are treated (ridiculous, evil), the way slurs are treated (taboo, don't even go there bro) are all shibboleths of a certain type of Leftist, the type that hides how boring and doctrinaire they are with a thin patina of irony.

Whether there's any meaningful difference between Fisher and Marx (and there isn't, it's all the same crap - and c'mon, Fisher isn't 'lamenting' the possibility of a failed monarchical future, it's not at all equivalent to Communism in his eyes) is beside the point. The real point is that the shitposters on /v/ who call the game Commie propaganda while not understanding the most basic elements of Communism are closer to the mark than lefties who make up elaborate justifications as to why it's above the political fray.

I've mixed feelings about the breakup of the studio. On the one hand, I have a lot of respect for people who bullishly stick to their principles and the studio managed to produce a truly unique game. On the other hand, it's infuriating to encounter people who think they're above or immune to the everyday jostling of the world of business. I've encountered so many of these types on the left who manage to fuck themselves through incompetence or indolence and then complain that it's the system's fault when it was their own failure to exercise even the slightest bit of initiative or savvy. Presumably ZAUM signed a contract, presumably they got a lot of money to fund their passion project (which otherwise would never have existed), presumably that contract contained clauses that they were totally, 100 percent made aware of before they signed and now they turn around and complain about the decision? Fine to acknowledge if you fucked up through naivete, but it seems their only admission of failure is that they were too pure, too good for the world of capital.

 

[V_K]

OMG, and here I thought you can't get more annoying than the Disco devs.

 

[Harthwain]

I don't think there's ever really a suggestion that Communism is intrinsically evil, that it's materialistic, that it elevates the trash of society at the expense of its best and brightest - all the standard (and basically correct) criticisms that come from the right.

:

YOU - How come there's *word on the street*?

RHETORIC - You keep saying things like *down with the bourgeoisie*, *eat the rich*, *sodomize the land-owners*, *impale all people who have more than 25 real in their pocket*, *literally murder all human beings regardless of their political beliefs* -- that kind of stuff.

YOU - Oh, right. That sounds like me.

RHETORIC - Funky-style. Very funky. So tell me. Do you have any more questions before we fire up the Big Communism Builder, or do we get right down to it?

YOU - Roll up your sleeves and start building Communism. (Opt in.)

RHETORIC - Oh yeah! Get the firing squads and the animal wagons ready!

No one wants to be associated with communism by the time you get there. The party is over. They'd rather call themselves socialists and social democrats. No wonder – commies got their asses handed to them 50 years ago. Their little commune got wiped off the face of the Earth. Even worse, the civil war gave foreign powers a casus belli to invade Revachol and now look at the shit we're in. Also, Kras Mazov, the father of scientific communism killed himself.

Don't pick this ideology. It's a swamp of melancholy and would-have-beens. Also, they, like, killed a lot of people. There's a smart centrist man who once calculated that communism has killed 100 billion people in total.

There are also other bits, such as the execution of people who were developing a supercomputer by the communists and the communists forcing people to fight on the beaches (and die under an artillery fire) unless they wanted to be killed along with their families, by the communists (which is mentioned by Joyce Messier when she details the invasion of Revachol by the forces of the Moralitern).

Yeah, the game clearly does not give any hints whatsoever that Communism is intrinsically evil. Nope.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

and c'mon, Fisher isn't 'lamenting' the possibility of a failed monarchical future, it's not at all equivalent to Communism in his eyes

Never implied otherwise, old chap. His notion of lost futures that I've brought up is about individual subjective experiences hence different people lament different could've beens when faced with an alienating present and those are reflected in Disco Elysium's various characters (Rene in particular being the one who laments that failed monarchical future).

Just wanted to clarify that. Otherwise, as far as the rest of your post is concerned, I personally take it for granted that you'll find plenty of underlying subjectivity in any narrative-driven work whose creative development isn't being (too) restrained by the sort of audience-maximizing, play it safe design philosophy found in your average AAA title (& overcompartmentalization of developmental duties, often among people will less enthusiasm and even less of a shared vision for what the unified product should be like). So I find that noticeable subjectivity underlying the game's narrative design to be a testament to the game's greatness rather than something to the detriment of its quality that could've been avoided if only the devs had been less biased. You can either have a narrative work which offers a neat intersubjective experience because you can identify with the humanity that got poured by the devs into its design or you get sanitized ('unbiased') crap that is alright, but lacks any soul. And in the former case, that's what immersion is all about - that palpable humanity making it worth your time to conjure your own value judgements pertaining to the fictional setting being portrayed (hence it being an intersubjective experience between player and dev, both being equally 'biased' in what they make of that world and of its various denizens).

 

[Heroic Liberator]

There are also other bits, such as the execution of people who were developing a supercomputer by the communists and the communists forcing people to fight on the beaches (and die under an artillery fire) unless they wanted to be killed along with their families, by the communists (which is mentioned by Joyce Messier when she details the invasion of Revachol by the forces of the Moralitern).

Yeah, the game clearly does not give any hints whatsoever that Communism is intrinsically evil. Nope.

The mistake that a lot of people are making when criticizing this game's ideological bent is that they conflate sympathy for communism as an utopic model with sympathy for Communism (a.i. the sort of revolutionary socialism which Marxism-Leninism became representative of) as a political ideology meant to pave the way to it. The devs fall within the former (as do anarchists, left and rightwing primitivists who want to return to monke, religious folk awaiting kingdom come and the return to an adamic society, liberals and social democrats with dreams of techno utopia etc etc), but they're ultimately New Lefties in the same vein as Mark Fisher (I'm a broken record, I know) and not Communists with a capital C. And as a Communist with a capital C, I can appreciate this game despite acknowledging that they're satirizing my personal ideology (within the deeply humanistic framework of the game). And I don't have to resort to calling them Moralists (which they likewise treat in a more favorable manner compared to fascism and ultraliberalism, although - just as with Communism - it is not their personal outlook) for not upholding my views since I can empathize with them as fellow alienated individuals regardless of the coping strategies and/or proposed solutions to the current state of affairs that they've chosen being different from mine. That's what intersubjectivity is all about.

 

[Harthwain]

The mistake that a lot of people are making when criticizing this game's ideological bent is that they conflate sympathy for communism as an utopic model with sympathy for Communism (a.i. the sort of revolutionary socialism which Marxism-Leninism became representative of) as a political ideology meant to pave the way to it. The devs fall within the former (as do anarchists, left and rightwing primitivists who want to return to monke, religious folk awaiting kingdom come and the return to an adamic society, liberals and social democrats with dreams of techno utopia etc etc), but they're ultimately New Lefties in the same vein as Mark Fisher (I'm a broken record, I know) and not Communists with a capital C.

Indeed.

And I don't have to resort to calling them Moralists (which they likewise treat in a more favorable manner compared to fascism and ultraliberalism, although - just as with Communism - it is not their personal outlook) [...]

Is it treated in more favourable manner though? Using phrases such as "moderately deadly artillery" may sound reasonable, but I would argue it all is supposed to be merely a fascade, designed to make people comply, because it appears reasonable at a glance and puts one in better light.

It still doesn't make what Moralintern does any better. Even the name "Moralintern" itself (The Moralism International) is an obvious jab at Comintern, only made-up by "western" foreign powers. They really aren't the good guys in this story.

And there are plenty more jokes directed at Moralism in general - such as it being "normal" (and, consequently, the best), albeit boring, ideology to pick from. The obvious choice™!

I notice all that and I am a centrist myself.

 

[Larianshill]

I am incredibly skeptical of anyone defending Disco Elysium's political bent while having Stalin on his avatar.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Real communist video games haven't been tried.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

 

[Ismaul]

The 'tragedy' of the setting is that Communism failed.

You're projecting your own view on it.

From the point of view of my character, the tragedy was that Communists retards, aka Communards, destroyed the monocled Suzerainty of Revachol. All this unrest and 40 millions dead and for what? More of it. Us militiamen had to come in and restore order, yet but a pale image of the glory of yesteryear. We were the capital of the world!

The Nation will rise again, just you watch.

(Ok so the monarchy declined for a tiny bit too, but the fuckers took advantage in order to destroy it all.)

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I am incredibly skeptical of anyone defending Disco Elysium's political bent while having Stalin on his avatar.

But that's the thing, I'm not defending the devs' ideology. I am defending a game that isn't trying to be bland as to not risk offending someone's political sensibilities. I think that people of all ideologies can have fun with it even with a Harrier that becomes a caricature of the player's personal ideology.

Is it treated in more favourable manner though?

Well, I'd say that the devs are poking fun in a similar fashion to all four (or five if you count centrism) ideologies, but people on the right side of the political spectrum tend to be more offended by it since they take the satirical portrayals of leftist ideologies as being veridical hence mistaking the same satirical portrayals of their own ideologies as representing a double standard on the part of the devs.

 

[Harthwain]

all four (or five if you count centrism)

I always thought centrism is part of Moralism, just as monarchism is part of Fascism. Having said that, I think a game like this could benefit from having better political compass. Or none at all, thereby allowing the player to draw his own conclussions. Lumping monarchists with Fascist faction is simply not correct, because you can have a constitutional monarchy (the United Kingdom being an example of such system).

 

[Ismaul]

I think a game like this could benefit from having better political compass

I don't know.

It would become convoluted if you tried to replicate the nuances in real political positions. Simplifying is inaccurate and can be frustrating because nuances are lost, but it's easier to grasp and actually implementable as part of gameplay.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I'm sitting here and laughing for 5 minutes every time I read this: