Incline Disco Elysium - The Final Cut - a hardboiled cop show isometric RPG

[ScrotumBroth]

Butthurt over 9000 thousand

 

[Zombra]

[A real RPG must have multiple endings]

Hahahahahahhhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Popiel]

oblivion style larping
bioware style dialogues

10/10 goty

I had this feelin' in the back of my head that if I take a peek here after many days I'll stumble upon yet another chapter of rat's butthurt over DE. Feelin' was right.

 

[Viata]

[A real RPG must have multiple endings]

Hahahahahahhhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

What is the point of C&C if the ending is still the same, though?

 

[Harthwain]

[A real RPG must have multiple endings]

Hahahahahahhhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

What is the point of C&C if the ending is still the same, though?

What's the point of having different builds for combat if the ending is still the same?

 

[Viata]

[A real RPG must have multiple endings]

Hahahahahahhhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

What is the point of C&C if the ending is still the same, though?

What's the point of having different builds for combat if the ending is still the same?

That comparison is retarded.
C&C is praised because of what it does to the plot of the game. If the C&C affects only the quest you are doing, that is not worth shit. It should affect more than the quest you are doing. It should also affect other quests and the plot of the game. If I make some choices in quest X, I could get rewarded or fucked in quest Y because of that. At least, AoD knew how to do that.
So, after doing all those choices, the ending is the same shit, why waste my time by giving me false C&C?
The different builds for combat are rewarded in those fights itself, not in the fucking plot. I don't make a different party in Elminage hoping the ending is different, nor does anyone I know. However, everyone that plays FO1 hopes the choices they are doing affects the whole plot of the game, not just the side quest they are doing.

 

[Harthwain]

The different builds for combat are rewarded in those fights itself, not in the fucking plot.

Thank you for making my case for me.

This is pretty much identical to how combat works: having different builds won't make the ending different, but it will change that aspect of the game. Contrary to some claims here you will get varying results, depending on how much you learn during the course of the investigation, which is heavily impacted by what your build is and what rolls you make. It won't change "the ending" itself, but it will certainly give you a better understanding of the whole plot (motive, confession, etc.) and that will allow you to score points with the team at the end. It get it's not the same as the ending slides, so some people fail to realize that, but... *Harthwain shrugs*

 

[Viata]

Then that is a shit C&C and it's weird to see people here praising it. Go play JRPG, it has a lot of it.

 

[Harthwain]

Most cRPGs have shit CnC, that much is true.

 

[Xamenos]

I think it ticks in real time and fast forwards in dialogue.

Nope. The game isn't real time at all. Every dialogue option you pick passes the time by X minutes, and anything else does not advance the clock at all. You can pick every single piece of trash out there for spare change, and it'll cost you 0 in-game minutes.

What is the point of C&C if the ending is still the same, though?

Define "ending". Because by your metric Fallout 4, where you may or may not end up blowing up the Institute, has more endings and therefore more CnC than Fallout 1 where you definitely end the game by blowing up the Cathedral and the Military Base.

 

[Viata]

Having multiple ending doesn't mean it has C&C. By that logic, Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are the greatest C&C games since they have a fuckton of endings. I mean that the choices you make through the game also affects the ending you can get. Not like nuDeus Ex where I can select one of the 3(or was it 4) endings at the last part of the game, by just clicking a button.
Like how in FO1, because I know something about mutants, that I learned through the game, I can avoid fighting the Master.

 

[Viata]

The game isn't real time at all. Every dialogue option you pick passes the time by X minutes, and anything else does not advance the clock at all.

This. There was a quest where I had to visit someone at night and I remember I had to wait for some minutes to pass to get that time(like I got there and there was still 20 minutes to go) so I just randomly talked to people and it made the time pass.

 

[Zombra]

C&C is praised because of what it does to the plot of the game. If the C&C affects only the quest you are doing, that is not worth shit. It should affect more than the quest you are doing. It should also affect other quests and the plot of the game.

Disco has plenty of callbacks and cross-pollination among its content. If you didn't notice it or weren't watching for it, okay, but I have had a number of "Ohhhh" moments where it referenced a choice or approach I made.

I like the "branching river" structure too and would have liked to see substantially different endings, but its lack does not make this story or player involvement in it meaningless (any more than any other game).

Harthwain's comparison is perfectly apt: just like in a traditional mass slaughter RPG (which also usually have just one ending), how you get there is more important than the destination.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

It's a Numenera-style flavor C&C. Yes, there's lot of it, yes, it took a lot of effort and yes, some of it was well done and quite funny.

But it's entirely meaningless.

 

[Zombra]

But it's entirely meaningless.

"The games you like are 'meaningless' - the ones I like are meaningful!"

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

But it's entirely meaningless.

"The games you like are 'meaningless' - the ones I like are meaningful!"

The game is meaningful , but its C&C is not. Don't be moving the goalposts on me captain Zombra.

 

[Xamenos]

Having multiple ending doesn't mean it has C&C. By that logic, Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are the greatest C&C games since they have a fuckton of endings. I mean that the choices you make through the game also affects the ending you can get. Not like nuDeus Ex where I can select one of the 3(or was it 4) endings at the last part of the game, by just clicking a button.
Like how in FO1, because I know something about mutants, that I learned through the game, I can avoid fighting the Master.

In Fallout 1, you kill the Master and blow up the cathedral, but depending on your choices you can fighting him or not even not meet him at all. The fate of cities and various NPCs depends on how, or whether, you resolved their quests throughout the game.
In Disco Elysium, you arrest the culprit and meet your colleagues, but depending on your choices you can force a confession or not, can be reinstated as a cop or kicked out, etc. The fate of the docks and various NPCs depends on how, or whether, you resolved their quests throughout the game. The lack of slides is a minus, definitely, but the CnC available for the endings are not that different.

This time I agree completely with your post. It does go against your original point, but I'm not going to hold it against you.

 

[The_Mask]

If anything, this thread has exposed the mediocrities on the Codex. Sad to see Roxor is one of them.

 

[Zombra]

It's meaningful if you enjoyed it, since the point of games is to enjoy them.

Disagree that joy and meaning are synonymous in the context of choice and consequence.

I would describe "meaning" (again, in this context) as responding to player choices in a way that impacts the experience and how you think about it afterwards. A lot of weight is being put on branching narrative and ending slides as the only type of "meaningful" response but I disagree with this. Disco is less like a vehicle with many destinations and more like a deep conversation with a hitchhiker - even when the destination is the same, the responses along the way can be substantial and illuminating, and a lot of them can take you mentally in any number of directions.

If you don't care about what happens to those you meet along the way - if you don't care what happens to the protagonist himself - if you don't care that the game notices a thousand little things you do and reminds you of them later - then it's easy to see how you might think everything you do in Disco is meaningless. Personally, I find it shallow to only find "meaning" in Megaton/Tenpenny type decisions. I don't need the whole peninsula to break off and float away to feel that what I did "mattered". I find meaning in less cinematic things. Was a disturbed teenager able to come to terms with his violent nature? Was a lonely man able to find comfort in a lover's arms? Was a superstitious lunatic able to step for a moment out of her delusions? And yes, was the hero able to finally distance himself from his reflexive, odious "disco" persona? None of this stuff is assured in the game, and character build and player decisions do impact what becomes of these people. If these don't constitute meaningful consequences then I'd like to know what is.

 

[Jenkem]

Lmao people still defending Prime Junta's deliberate lies and shilling, not to mention he was also begging people in DMs to stop posting about problems with the game.

Is this real?

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Zombra, their focus on that sort of C&C stems from the prevalence of 'chosen one' sort of stories in most RPGs which they mistakenly apply to a game such as DE which is a much more mundane and personal story, although it might take place in a surrealist setting.

Lmao people still defending Prime Junta's deliberate lies and shilling, not to mention he was also begging people in DMs to stop posting about problems with the game.

Is this real?

A man with a mission. Must be scheming for the reunification of Estonia with its Finnish Motherland as we speak.

 

[Strange Fellow]

It's meaningful if you enjoyed it, since the point of games is to enjoy them.

Disagree that joy and meaning are synonymous in the context of choice and consequence.

I would describe "meaning" (again, in this context) as having a game that responds to player choices in a way that impacts the experience and how you think about it afterwards. A lot of weight is being put on branching narrative and ending slides as the only type of "meaningful" response but I disagree with this. Disco is less like a vehicle with many destinations and more like a deep conversation with a hitchhiker - even when the destination is the same, the responses along the way can be substantial and illuminating, and a lot of them can take you mentally in any number of directions.

If you don't care about what happens to those you meet along the way - if you don't care what happens to the protagonist himself - if you don't care that the game notices a thousand little things you do and reminds you of them later - then it's easy to see how you might think everything you do in the game is meaningless. Personally, I find it shallow to only find "meaning" in Megaton/Tenpenny type decisions. I don't need the whole peninsula to break off and float away to feel that what I did "mattered". I find meaning in less cinematic things. Was a disturbed teenager able to come to terms with his violent nature? Was a lonely man able to find comfort in a lover's arms? Was a superstitious lunatic able to step for a moment out of her delusions? And yes, was the hero able to finally distance himself from his reflexive, odious "disco" persona? None of this stuff is assured in the game, and character build and player decisions do impact what becomes of these people. If these don't constitute meaningful consequences then I'd like to know what is.

I immediately deleted my low-effort shitpost amid low-effort shitposts, but yeah, well put. If I had cared enough to explain what I meant this would be it.

I'm pretty sure Nick is just picking low-hanging butthurt though.

 

[Tigranes]

I like to think that it's more about donating butthurts to our more deprived neighbours, helping them out with their withdrawal.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I'm pretty sure Nick is just picking low-hanging butthurt though.

Pot, meet kettle. Need I remind how this shitstorm started?

"Alert, Alert, Nick is posting in the thread again"
"Oh no what has he done now"
"He made one sentence review with 6 words"
"What does it say?"
"Game is good but kinda short"
"MUST DEFEND DISCO ELYSIUM. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE"

Strangely enough, one post that I made which was serious - pointing out that metagaming a different playthrough isn't the same as larping a different playthrough - is the one people choose not to interact with.

It's all tantrums, meltdowns and general shithousery.

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.pcgamer.com/why-kim-kitsuragi-is-disco-elysiums-breakout-star/

Why Kim Kitsuragi is Disco Elysium's breakout star
ZA/UM on the creation of the unflappable lieutenant.

Lieutenant Kim initially comes off cold and judgemental. It's hard to blame him. The detective RPG Disco Elysium begins with what probably feels to him like some cosmic joke. He arrives in Martinaise to solve a murder case and is met with a decomposing victim, no suspects, and a hungover, amnesiac detective as his temporary partner. Kim remains aloof throughout the investigation, but an empathetic enough detective can manage to uncover brief moments of vulnerability from Lt. Kitsuragi. Those hard-earned interactions have been enough to make him the game's breakout star. Which was not at all what the team at developer ZA/UM expected.

"Honestly, we're surprised people like him so much," says lead writer Robert Kurvitz. "Of course, we always adored him. All these years playing the game, testing it, writing it. We got to spend a lot of time with Kim. And we always felt he's a real person and our friend."

All of Disco Elysium's characters feel like real people. Each one has a history and memories that, unlike NPCs of other RPGs, aren't keen to spill their guts at the protagonist's feet upon first meeting. As the detective's partner, Kim has multiple threads to his backstory waiting to be unraveled. "We wanted Kim to open up through the scenes and situations you get into," Kurvitz explains. "Not by clicking on him and cleaning out his tree."

Because of that philosophy, the player is unlikely to uncover everything there is to know about Kim in just one playthrough. With certain combinations of skills or experiences, the detective can have interactions with Kim that couldn't be achieved by playing with a different build.

The detective's Thought Cabinet, the limited inventory reserved just for exploring various ideas, can lead to avenues for conversation with Kim and others that cannot be unlocked otherwise. The Aces High thought, when internalised, allows the detective to find out that Kim is an Aerostatics enthusiast. Other Thought Cabinet options can lead to more revelations about Kim. In theory, Kurvitz says that Kim has Thought Cabinet ideas of his own. Like the detective's, they each take time to internalise and provide boosts to other attributes when completed.

"I like to think Kim has a Thought Cabinet project called Revolutionary Aerostatic Brigades that he's worked on since he was a teenager," Kurvitz says. "This raises the learning caps for his Reaction Speed and Interfacing."

Kurvitz stresses that Kim doesn't actually have a character sheet hidden in Disco Elysium's code. Imagining that Lieutenant Kitsuragi has only one natural attribute point in Motorics helps the ZA/UM team to understand the depth of his character beyond what's referenced in the game's dialogue. "We just came up with this stuff for coherency," says Kurvitz. "And because we're nerds."

Unlike the detective, Kim doesn't have a 'copotype', Disco Elysium's witty and often sarcastic way of allowing the detective to define his modus operandi with monikers like 'hobo cop' and 'art cop'. If you were able to ask Kim what his copotype is, Kurvitz says he would reply quite matter-of-factly that "copotypes are stupid".

Kim's high Volition skill makes him impervious to prying, Kurvitz says, as the detective can find out on occasions being met with Kim's brick-wall resolve. Kim often chastises these whims of the detective's, but will occasionally play along. The Lieutenant finds his new partner funny, says Kurvitz. In one instance he'll engage in (and win) an unspoken nod-off. Elsewhere, he indulges the detective's fascination with cryptid hunting. It's the conscious effort Kim makes to break his own persona that gives him a warmth that's so endearing.

Voice of reason
Disco Elysium isn't entirely voice-acted, but the specific moments when characters speak lend an extra layer to their personalities. Of all the voices in game, Kim's is one of the best. He's written as soft-spoken but stern, qualities that Kurvitz says were enhanced by the perfect actor.

ZA/UM knew that, as a Revacholian, Kim had to sound vaguely French but it took an entire four years to find the right voice. Jullian Champenois was the only one who could bring "the cool, the deadpan, and the warmth" of Kim's personality together.

Disco Elysium is equal parts grim and hopeful, as is Lieutenant Kitsuragi, the buttoned up cop who's occasionally willing to rip a few pages out of his by-the-book attitude. "You're in this awful mess and literally nothing and no one is on your side—except Kim Kitsuragi," says Kurvitz. "It just so happens that he's great. A great detective and a great human being."