Devil May Cry 5

[Tehdagah]

90% of enemies are non-threatening. They are passive, HP bloated and only exist to be combo'ed by the player.

In the original Devil may Cry the only enemy that is passive is the Marionette.
The reason why they seem/are passive is because on lower difficulties lesser enemies are programmed to taunt the player and not be aggressive. When you up the difficulty lesser enemies stop standing around and are far more aggressive and the more powerful and more aggressive enemies start appearing far earlier in the game and also get more aggressive in combat.

It's why in DMC1 shadow appears as a regular enemy much earlier in the game on hard even though on normal and easy, it is treated as a mini-boss.

I forgot about DMC1 due to how bad the game was. 90% of the enemies in DMC3/4 are passive even on Dante Must Die mode.

By the way, dodge with iframes.

 

[sullynathan]

I forgot about DMC1 due to how bad the game was. 90% of the enemies in DMC3/4 are passive even on Dante Must Die mode.

In the original Devil may Cry the only enemy that is passive is the Marionette.

DMC3 your average enemies are the seven hells, Pride, envy, wrath, sloth, greed and envy are slow enemies but aren't passive and all have their own movesets that compliment each other. Play the beginning of mission 2 on Hard, Very Hard &/or Dante Must die and you'll see it.

Dullahan, Enigma & Soul Eater are passive enemies because they're used in levels or parts of levels that either have puzzles, platforming or environmental dangers. In more of the large combat situations, Enigma's have a support role and constantly shoot the player, again, especially on harder difficulties due to not letting up.

In DMC4 you do have a bit more passive enemies. Scarecrows & Fault are the most passive enemies due to not doing much damage and Fault's being annoying to fight with no flight in this game unlike the previous ones. Fault's just keep distance away from the player, Scarecrows do low damage and almost never push the player.


Overall I don't see any enemy that actually has HP bloat. The lesser demons get taken out really quickly if you hit them, more powerful enemies don't even have large health pools. More powerful enemies like The Shadow have a lot of heatlh because you're supposed to wittle down their larger body and hit their weak core. Other powerful enemies like Blitz are similar due to having to break his body while he has lightning cloak and then attacking him while he's vulnerable. Blitz is highly aggressive and tough, one of the best enemies in DMC4.

By the way, dodge with iframes.

that's the lock-on dodge in the other games.

 

[Tehdagah]

DMC3 your average enemies are the seven hells, Pride, envy, wrath, sloth, greed and envy are slow enemies but aren't passive and all have their own movesets that compliment each other. Play the beginning of mission 2 on Hard, Very Hard &/or Dante Must die and you'll see it.

These average enemies are most of the game's enemies. With "passive" I'm also taking in account how easy is to stagger them (most of them can be made helpless with simple combos. I mean, a Stinger alone is enough to throw them in the floor).

Dullahan, Enigma & Soul Eater are passive enemies because they're used in levels or parts of levels that either have puzzles, platforming or environmental dangers. In more of the large combat situations, Enigma's have a support role and constantly shoot the player, again, especially on harder difficulties due to not letting up.

I recall the snipers being the more annoying enemies in DMD. Still, most enemies are easy to deal with. The chess pieces especially are very easy despite their enormous amount of HP (who thought they were a good idea?)

In DMC4 you do have a bit more passive enemies. Scarecrows & Fault are the most passive enemies due to not doing much damage and Fault's being annoying to fight with no flight in this game unlike the previous ones. Fault's just keep distance away from the player, Scarecrows do low damage and almost never push the player.

Like DMC3, most enemies can be made helpess with simple combos. Exceptions: Blitz, the infected lizards and the golden armour (although the infected lizards are hard for the wrong reasons). The subterranean sharks can be troublesome, too.

Overall I don't see any enemy that actually has HP bloat. The lesser demons get taken out really quickly if you hit them, more powerful enemies don't even have large health pools. More powerful enemies like The Shadow have a lot of heatlh because you're supposed to wittle down their larger body and hit their weak core. Other powerful enemies like Blitz are similar due to having to break his body while he has lightning cloak and then attacking him while he's vulnerable. Blitz is highly aggressive and tough, one of the best enemies in DMC4.

Didn't you ever notice how the DMC enemies have more HP than enemies from the other hack 'n' slash franchises?

 

[sullynathan]

Didn't you ever notice how the DMC enemies have more HP than enemies from the other hack 'n' slash franchises?

not any more than Bayonetta or Ninja Gaiden. Unless you compare it to God of War where you can grab and kill enemies or Metal Gear rising where you can just cut most enemies in half.

Like DMC3, most enemies can be made helpess with simple combos.

With "passive" I'm also taking in account how easy is to stagger them

Still, most enemies are easy to deal with.

That's most hack & slashers. Even yesterday I played Ninja gaiden sigma which has more aggressive regular enemies than all the other hack & slashers I've played and regular enemies can be dispatched by getting them with combos since they can't just break out of it until your combo ends. What matters more in Devil may cry is that you're never just fighting only one enemy anyway and you have far more enemies to fight at once than most hack & slashers.
These type of games don't have things like poise from dark souls.

Still, most enemies are easy to deal with.

The chessmen work the best when they we're all together since their abilities completement each other. They are one of the few enemies with a good amount of HP just due to the fact that they're giant stone structures compared to the more fleshy demons in the game so they should have more HP.

 

[Tehdagah]

not any more than Bayonetta or Ninja Gaiden. Unless you compare it to God of War where you can grab and kill enemies or Metal Gear rising where you can just cut most enemies in half.

Nope, they definitively have more HP. Ninja Gaiden? Izuna Drops and UTs can kill almost every enemy (even on Master Ninja) near instantly.

See this:



He constantly charges the sword and even then it still takes a plenty of hits to kill the weakest enemies. Most enemies in DMC are designated as targets to be combo'ed by the player. This is done on purpose by the developers.

That's most hack & slashers. Even yesterday I played Ninja gaiden sigma which has more aggressive regular enemies than all the other hack & slashers I've played and regular enemies can be dispatched by getting them with combos since they can't just break out of it until your combo ends.

The difference is that the average enemy in Ninja Gaiden is much more agressive than the average enemy in any Devil May Cry game, therefore it's harder to deal with them. The average Devil May Cry enemy = slow, passive and can easily be put in stagger mode (again, this is done on purpose by the devs)

What matters more in Devil may cry is that you're never just fighting only one enemy anyway and you have far more enemies to fight at once than most hack & slashers.

Definitively not, until you are talking about Legendary Dark Knight mode.

The chessmen work the best when they we're all together since their abilities completement each other. They are one of the few enemies with a good amount of HP just due to the fact that they're giant stone structures compared to the more fleshy demons in the game so they should have more HP.

IIRC there's only one moment in DMC3 where all of them are together, but the fight isn't hard thanks to the iframe jump (+ double jump).

 

[J_C]

not any more than Bayonetta or Ninja Gaiden. Unless you compare it to God of War where you can grab and kill enemies or Metal Gear rising where you can just cut most enemies in half.

Nope, they definitively have more HP. Ninja Gaiden? Izuna Drops and UTs can kill almost every enemy (even on Master Ninja) near instantly.

See this:



He constantly charges the sword and even then it still takes a plenty of hits to kill the weakest enemies. Most enemies in DMC are designated as targets to be combo'ed by the player. This is done on purpose by the developers.

It's true, but you can't fault the game for this. DMC is a spectacle fighter, so one of the main goal is to juggle the enemies and do it in a cool way. That's what makes the game fun.

 

[aweigh]

Amazing what a simple 'stache can do

 

[Mikeal]

Hello. My name is Dantego Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

 

[sullynathan]

IIRC there's only one moment in DMC3 where all of them are together, but the fight isn't hard thanks to the iframe jump (+ double jump).

That final mission is the only one where there are so many of them together. Previous missions have them together too but not in such large quantities.

The difference is that the average enemy in Ninja Gaiden is much more agressive than the average enemy in any Devil May Cry game, therefore it's harder to deal with them. The average Devil May Cry enemy = slow, passive and can easily be put in stagger mode (again, this is done on purpose by the devs)

I won't disagree with the first sentence, Ninja Gaiden is more difficult than all the other hack & slashers. The 2nd statement is disingenuous since Ninja Gaiden enemies can easily be staggered.

Izuna Drops and UTs can kill almost every enemy (even on Master Ninja) near instantly

yea, lets compare one of the most powerful techniques in Ninja Gaiden games to a sword charge from Nero even though in the same video you posted, Nero's Devil Trigger attack was killing enemies. Even at that, Devil May Cry isn't ninja gaiden, you're right in that the developers do want you to do combos on enemies

Definitively not, until you are talking about Legendary Dark Knight mode.

Even discounting legendary dark knight mode, is there any other hack & slasher that has as many enemies at once as DMC?

 

[Declinator]

Even discounting legendary dark knight mode, is there any other hack & slasher that has as many enemies at once as DMC?

Ninja Gaiden 2 (not the Sigma version)

 

[Wunderbar]

Probably a stupid question, but is someone played recent DMC Collection with a keyboard? Is it playable?

I'm a keyboard user, i can't play anything with gamepad. I played original port of RE4 with a keyboard, and MGS2.

 

[Martius]

By original pc port you mean that one without mouse support? In current one you can at least aim with mouse. In that case keyboard will work on basic level (there is also no mouse support but that is not big problem since camera is mostly fixed in whole collection). You can rebind keys in hd collection settings, but not games itself. Button prompts will show just xbox360 icons. If you can stomach all of this it then it should be enough for normal difficulty setting. I would not touch anything higher unless you are guy from this video.

 

[Wunderbar]

By original pc port you mean that one without mouse support? In current one you can at least aim with mouse.

yep, i mean original shitty sourcenext port without mouse support.

 

[Martius]

Well, good luck then! I tried playing DMC4 on keyboard. It was playable but shared most of the issues with HD Collection. Sadly at this point its probably too late to get proper mouse and keyboard support like in DmC. Maybe in DMC5, who knows...

 

[Suicidal]

Probably a stupid question, but is someone played recent DMC Collection with a keyboard? Is it playable?

I'm a keyboard user, i can't play anything with gamepad. I played original port of RE4 with a keyboard, and MGS2.

I played the original shitty DMC 3 & 4 ports on keyboard. I remember rebinding some keys to a layout that made more sense (like making space bar jump) so in the end it was annoying and playable. I beat everything up to Dante Must Die in DMC3 and normal + Legendary Dark Knight in DMC 4.

The biggest annoyance is that some moves were impossible to perform on keyboard because they involved making a few circle motions with the gamepad stick, which for the PC controls translated into pressing WASDWASD really fast.

If the HD collection has mouse support then it should be a lot easier. I had no trouble playing Bayonetta, MGR, Dark Souls and Nioh on keyboard and a 4 button mouse.

 

[Gruncheon]

That final mission is the only one where there are so many of them together. Previous missions have them together too but not in such large quantities.

I won't disagree with the first sentence, Ninja Gaiden is more difficult than all the other hack & slashers. The 2nd statement is disingenuous since Ninja Gaiden enemies can easily be staggered.

yea, lets compare one of the most powerful techniques in Ninja Gaiden games to a sword charge from Nero even though in the same video you posted, Nero's Devil Trigger attack was killing enemies. Even at that, Devil May Cry isn't ninja gaiden, you're right in that the developers do want you to do combos on enemies

Even discounting legendary dark knight mode, is there any other hack & slasher that has as many enemies at once as DMC?

Some enemies in NG can be easily staggered, but are they slow and passive? Compared to DMC, they're not. It's simply true that most ordinary enemies in DMC are punching bags compared to other good action games. This is by design because DMC is a combo game in a way that neither NG or MG:R is.

It's a weird thing to say, but even though DMC3 is one of the best games of all time, it has uniformly terrible enemy design. I'm not saying that to be edgy, there's no normal enemy in that game that is even well designed. Some are just truly awful. DMC1 actually had better enemy design, even the Marionettes are more complicated than Lusts or Scarecrows, and no normal enemy since the Shadows in 1 have come close in terms of complexity. Hell, even the Dreamrunner in DmC is a better normal enemy than any normal enemy in DMC3.

It's just wrong to pretend that normal enemies aren't punching bags in modern DMC. Play DMD and fight a DT'ed Sloth and tell me that that's not mountains of HP for the sake of it. DMC has never had notable aggressive or intelligent enemies, they're there to let you look stylish around them.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I don't know the exact numbers but Nero is much weaker than Dante, probably to make Dante feel like an upgrade. When you switch to Dante in DMC 4 you kill stuff way quicker. Even if you are getting Red Queen charges on every hit you still won't out-damage Dante's normal Rebellion hits.

I recall in DMC 1 if I didn't jump or roll non-stop I would get immediately raped by lizard men. Later games are definitely easier and have more passive enemies. Even the lizards returning in DMC 4 are much more manageable. Worst enemy I always hated in DMC 4 was the lightning thing (can't recall exactly what it was). It would zap around the room constantly and explode when it died. Very annoying and on hard mode the game puts them everywhere.

DMC 1-4 are still way harder than DmC, which was a joke. But nevermind that fanfiction.

Even if DMC games have fairly passive enemies it's still more punishing of mistakes than other games. Consider all the God of War games where Kratos is just a tank and can faceroll all the mobs without hardly worrying about his health. DMC games you can take maybe 1/5 the number of hits before dying.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Really? I thought it was the opposite. I felt that Nero was much better, especially when you master using Exceed. Of course Dante and Nero have their own ways of playing and depending on which character resonates with you the most you'll be able to squeeze the most out of that character. Personally I was a fan of all the gimmicks that Nero had like the Buster to grab enemies and I always felt "naked" when playing Dante afterwards. God damnit this thread is making me want to go back and replay all the DMCs (yes, even DMC2 and DmC) again.

 

[Kruno]

Devil May Cry is a poor man's Dark Souls clone!

 

[J_C]

Devil May Cry is a poor man's Dark Souls clone!

 

[Big Wrangle]

Devil May Cry is the Dark Souls of Spectacle Action.

 

[sullynathan]

This is by design because DMC is a combo game in a way that neither NG or MG:R is.

Nah, MGR isn't a combo game at all, both NG & DMC have more of this in common that MGR doesn't.

Play DMD and fight a DT'ed Sloth

just checking, they have the most HP of all seven sins. They're literally called sloth because they're the demonic embodiment of sloth. slow and heavy = lots of health and slow attacks

Some enemies in NG can be easily staggered, but are they slow and passive? Compared to DMC, they're not.

no one has doubted this, I even pointed out that Ninja Gaiden has more aggressive and tougher enemies than all other hack & slashers

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I was a fan of all the gimmicks that Nero had

I agree that Nero is more fun. What's not to like about a sword that's also a motorcycle? So yeah I am hyped for DMC 5

 

[Deflowerer]

You pieces of shit, now I need to throw shekels at Capcom's HD collection on Steam.

 

[Gruncheon]

just checking, they have the most HP of all seven sins. They're literally called sloth because they're the demonic embodiment of sloth. slow and heavy = lots of health and slow attacks

Have you played DMC3 on DMD? They have a HUGE amount of health, way way beyond what's necessary for to test your ability to fight those enemies. It's the same for all of the DT'ed Sins - they have massive health pools. And DMC isn't notable for having many enemies on screen at once. It's never done this. And even where it has multiple enemies, the game is specifically designed so that few attack at once. The others dance around at the periphery of the fight. You never get overwhelmed by attacks in DMC. It's a really conscious design decision.