Demystifying the swarms meme, by anon.

[Pink Eye]

If it wasn't for the laws of this codex I would have spammed you with my awesome screenshots of my monks kicking ass.

 

[kelkorkesis]

If it wasn't for the laws of this codex I would have spammed you with my awesome screenshots of my monks kicking ass.

I like martial artists. It is just monks as a class suck. At worst you want to exit it after 6. I remember Dual Wielding chain not working with improved unarmed strike (correct me if I am wrong please). If it was not the case 2 Monk/18 Fighter or Slayer would beat straight monk hard. And even without dual wielding it is still much better than it.

 

[Pink Eye]

I have nothing to respond with except with this. Monks may be a lackluster class compared to the other classes. Monk may have some issues that unchained did not fix. Monks may also have some really bad end level abilities. I agree with all of that. But, monk is my favorite class in the game. I managed to beat the game on unfair with a monk class. My class can also survive the prologue area on unfair. I have also wasted hundreds of hours of my life dying on unfair + iron man with a monk class.

I like the theme and variety of the class. It's different from the other classes. I mean you use fists to kill shit. How awesome is that?! The class is a fresh of breath air in a fantasy setting. While I may acknowledge the weaknesses of the classes, I still like it.

 

[Daidre]

I like martial artists. It is just monks as a class suck. At worst you want to exit it after 6. I remember Dual Wielding chain not working with improved unarmed strike (correct me if I am wrong please). If it was not the case 2 Monk/18 Fighter or Slayer would beat straight monk hard. And even without dual wielding it is still much better than it.

Flurry is special better version of monk's dual-wielding. It is 2 extra full bab attacks on lvl 11. I always found idea of building Monk-with-stick weirdly attractive - to get maximum out of flurry with 2-handed weapon STR bonus and extra damage on Power Attack.

 

[Pink Eye]

I like martial artists. It is just monks as a class suck. At worst you want to exit it after 6. I remember Dual Wielding chain not working with improved unarmed strike (correct me if I am wrong please). If it was not the case 2 Monk/18 Fighter or Slayer would beat straight monk hard. And even without dual wielding it is still much better than it.

Flurry is special better version of monk's dual-wielding. It is 2 extra full bab attacks on lvl 11. I always found idea of building Monk-with-stick weirdly attractive - to get maximum out of flurry with 2-handed weapon STR bonus and extra damage on Power Attack.

Ineffect has monk build that uses quarter staff. He ended up still not liking the monk class.

 

[Daidre]

Ineffect has monk build that uses quarter staff. He ended up still not liking the monk class.

Quarterstaff as weapon of choice worked well enough for me in Scaled Fist/Sorc/Dragon Disciple/Eldritch Knight monstrosity, but this thing lost its right to be called monk at level 2.

Most properly monk-y build I've played was full run with DEX based 16 Monk/4 Rogue with Crane Style, but closer to endgame I wished I went for STR based Dragon Style monk instead.

 

[Pink Eye]

Yeah. Dragon style + power attack is amazing. The synergy between those two feats is what facilitates unarmed to do big damage. I've been experimenting with pummeling style, and it's just not that great in the early game. I feel that pummeling style only picks up when you can dish out more attacks.

 

[kelkorkesis]

But, monk is my favorite class in the game

I get that. Wizard is my favourite class in this game. Despite sorcerer is strictly superior in this game, half of my campaigns are with different flavour of wizards. I told you before I finished prologue on unfair with a diviner. It was most miserable gaming experience of my life.

I managed to beat the game on unfair with a monk class. My class can also survive the prologue area on unfair. I have also wasted hundreds of hours of my life dying on unfair + iron man with a monk class.

However these does say nothing about monks. With enough buffs you can turn even Linzi a terminator (I should do it in my next game). It is simply a math problem. If we can salvage Amiri, we can salvage anything. A cleric, wizard and alchemist will turn anything to a competent combatant. It is just, monk is disappointing. Higher levels might as well be empty. As you said, punching stuff to death is cool, yet we have this, the lamest class in the game, as representative of that trope.

Flurry is special better version of monk's dual-wielding. It is 2 extra full bab attacks on lvl 11. I always found idea of building Monk-with-stick weirdly attractive - to get maximum out of flurry with 2-handed weapon STR bonus and extra damage on Power Attack.

I like sais in this game. There is this sai which gives extra 2 attacks per round. I am going to use it one day hopefully.

Yeah. Dragon style + power attack is amazing. The synergy between those two feats is what facilitates unarmed to do big damage. I've been experimenting with pummeling style, and it's just not that great in the early game. I feel that pummeling style only picks up when you can dish out more attacks.

Only if we had master of many styles...

 

[Daidre]

I like sais in this game. There is this sai which gives extra 2 attacks per round. I am going to use it one day hopefully.

My biggest grip with weapon-using monks is that style strikes work only when unarmed, and having major class feature completely disabled always feels soo wrong(

 

[kelkorkesis]

My biggest grip with weapon-using monks is that style strikes work only when unarmed, and having major class feature completely disabled always feels soo wrong(

It works in pnp. Even when you wield a staff you can kick so you can style strike, but still this is an unnecessary restriction.

 

[Pink Eye]

>>It is just, monk is disappointing.
>>As you said, punching stuff to death is cool, yet we have this, the lamest class in the game, as representative of that trope.

Let's consider for a second. Why are monks the superior class, in my opinion, for unarmed users(Besides Sword Saint; but more on that later)? Well there are four main features that make the class stand out. For starters let's go over flurry of blows. What is flurry of blows? At level one it allows you to make an additional attack at full BAB. That means you're capable of performing two attacks per round at level 1. At level 11 you are granted an additional attack. Flurry of blows also stacks with haste and other effects. Why is flurry of blows important? Well as an unarmed user you are not going to do big damage, now correct me if I am wrong, but unarmed users are not going to outperform a two handed power attack user. It's not possible. So unarmed users need other means to stay relevant, that something is flurry of blows. The ability to potentially perform eight attacks per round allows unarmed users to be relevant. Sure, they may not do crazy damage, but that damage adds up when you're performing multiple attacks on the same target.

The next thing is unarmed passives. A fighter needs to switch out their weapon in order to over come an enemy's DR(Or bring a higher enchanted weapon). A monk does not to do so. For you see, the class has built in features that help it over come DR. This is what I mean when I say the class isn't gear dependent. At each couple of levels or so, monk's unarmed gets treated differently for the purpose of overcoming DR. At level three monk's unarmed is considered magic. Level seven monk's unarmed gets treated as cold iron and sliver. At level ten monk's unarmed gets treated lawful. Finally at level sixteen monk's unarmed are considered adamantine. Why is this important? Well I am trying to point out that the class is built in with passives to help unarmed users over come DR without needing gear.

KI power is another thing worth mentioning. KI power has with it a ton of spells that allow the monk to self buff. While the monk can never compete with a sword saint in terms of buffing, the class still has some means of self buffing. For example, the class can cast bark skin. The class can also cast KI power extra attack, which further raises the amount of attacks the class can do(This too stacks with flurry of blows). KI powers also come with passives. Such passives are mostly useless, however diamond soul is a fantastic means of improving your SR. Abundant step is also wroth mentioning, this power allows you to teleport around the battle field. Making it user for monks to charge down spell casters.

Lastly, monk has stat to AC. Which increases at plus one for every fourth level into monk. Pretty weak, but its a unique source of AC that stacks. Also while monk styles are not exactly unique to the monk class, as other martials can pick them too. The monk class does make it easier to get access to those styles.

In summary, monks are weak, I am not refuting that. However, for an unarmed user, monks are great classes to pick. We've tested a bunch of class combos in this steam thread: https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1639801448919710129/?ctp=2 The only class that was able to out perform monk was sword saint. And that was because sword saint's weapon enchantments do work with unarmed. Bite stacking came close, but I consider that an exploit. I don't think bite stacking is supposed to be a thing.

 

[Daidre]

My biggest grip with weapon-using monks is that style strikes work only when unarmed, and having major class feature completely disabled always feels soo wrong(

It works in pnp. Even when you wield a staff you can kick so you can style strike, but still this is an unnecessary restriction.

It worded as "Designate unarmed strike as style strike" and does not seem to work in the game as I tested it. Hey, Pink Eye, you are resident monk fan, had it ever worked?

 

[Pink Eye]

I don't care guys. I got called names for promoting monks back in the pathfinder /vg/ and /v/ threads. Nothing won't change my mind. Monks are great classes for unarmed users.

 

[Pink Eye]

It works in pnp. Even when you wield a staff you can kick so you can style strike, but still this is an unnecessary restriction.

It worded as "Designate unarmed strike as style strike" and does not seem to work in the game as I tested it. Hey, Pink Eye, you are resident monk fan, had it ever worked?

Has what worked? I don't remember what we were discussing.

 

[Daidre]

Has what worked? I don't remember what we were discussing.

I fixed quotation in my post. Do Style Strikes work with monk weapons? Or only when unarmed?

Does not seem to work in my game, but it is modded so heavily that I have Lynnorm and Jabbing Style in it.

 

[ga♥]

We've tested a bunch of class combos in this steam thread: https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1639801448919710129/?ctp=2 The only class that was able to out perform monk was sword saint. And that was because sword saint's weapon enchantments do work with unarmed. Bite stacking came close, but I consider that an exploit. I don't think bite stacking is supposed to be a thing.

Hmm wut about SNEAK ATTACK (it works with unarmed yes?)

 

[Pink Eye]

Power Attack + Dragon Style(Unarmed):

Spoiler

Power Attack with no Dragon Style(Unarmed):

Spoiler

Dragon style with no power attack(Unarmed):

Spoiler

Quarter Staff with no power attack or dragon style:

Spoiler

Quarter Staff with dragon style:

Spoiler

Quarter Staff with power attack:

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Quarter Staff + Dragon Style + Power Attack:

Spoiler

Difficulty: Unfair
Character sheet:

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[Pink Eye]

We've tested a bunch of class combos in this steam thread: https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1639801448919710129/?ctp=2 The only class that was able to out perform monk was sword saint. And that was because sword saint's weapon enchantments do work with unarmed. Bite stacking came close, but I consider that an exploit. I don't think bite stacking is supposed to be a thing.

Hmm wut about SNEAK ATTACK (it works with unarmed yes?)

Yeah it works. I tested a full playthrough of scaled fist with a one level dip into vivi just to measure its effectiveness. It seemed to proc sneak attack just fine.

 

[kelkorkesis]

Hmm wut about SNEAK ATTACK (it works with unarmed yes?)

Yes it does.

In summary, monks are weak, I am not refuting that. However, for an unarmed user, monks are great classes to pick. We've tested a bunch of class combos in this steam thread: https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1639801448919710129/?ctp=2 The only class that was able to out perform monk was sword saint. And that was because sword saint's weapon enchantments do work with unarmed. Bite stacking came close, but I consider that an exploit. I don't think bite stacking is supposed to be a thing.

I just finished reading that thread. Your methodology and criteria to determine best unarmed build are nonexistent. Did you guys really only compare for level 20 and use critical strike damage as a comparison tool for x20 weapon? Critical strike damage is largely irrelevant for such weapons. Improved critical is less than 5% increased average damage for such weapons. By your metric TH Fighter 20 scythe users would be best martial with guaranteed x5 crit every turn.

I also dislike comparing classes on level 20. You can make everything work at level 20, you get to boost your numbers enough. A comparison between different level brackets would be much healthier. For example you guys are completely missing the fact that a tiefling feral mutagen vivisectionist is making 4 attack at level 1 and these are not iterative. Such character will deal so much damage with very good consistency, not mention his other capabilities.

 

[Pink Eye]

>Your methodology and criteria to determine best unarmed build are nonexistent.
Well considering I got perma banned from there. I couldn't do a proper comparison so I forgot.

 

[Pink Eye]

This gives me an idea. Why don't we do a comparison here? I can create a thread and start comparing stuff. This will also give me an opportunity to improve my methodology.

 

[Sharpedge]

This thread has gone from swarms to monks, funny that. If you like playing monks and want to play monk, I don't see what the issue is, just play monks?

I should come back and finish my iron man unfair solo playthrough, got a little bit burned out after dying at Pitax to Irovetti's Fan of Blades. Also not sure how I will manage the endless dungeon thing solo, I tried that mode out for a bit and it was rough to solo.

 

[Pink Eye]

Yeah. I derailed my own thread.

 

[kelkorkesis]

Well considering I got perma banned from there. I couldn't do a proper comparison so I forgot.

Their loss. :D

This gives me an idea. Why don't we do a comparison here? I can create a thread and start comparing stuff. This will also give me an opportunity to improve my methodology.

Comparing classes are hard though. Dnd 3.5 is 20 years old. I don't know if you are aware but there is a tier list for classes for both 3.5 and pathfinder. And people are still bickering about it today. On pc medium their criteria and methodology won't be proper but it can be a starting point.

You should decide if you are going to compare these classes on solo or party performance though. A slayer will never shine in such comparison while alchemist and magus will reign supreme.

 

[Pink Eye]

>Their loss
Thanks a lot man. I love talking about Pathfinder. But sometimes I get overzealous and can be a ass hat.