KickStarter Dead State: Reanimated

[Zombra]

You assume too much, then, because I have since the first release, and the bugs weren't major for my personal tastes. But who are you to tell me, exactly? Your word's worth should be more to me than some guy's, whose review was upvoted around a couple of thousand times at a storefront? Okay, sure, I believe you, stranger. Would you like the number of my credit card?

I'm nobody - but the other guy is too. I just wanted to be clear on this: if you think DB is obligated to issue an apology based on that other guy's rant, you're wrong, because the game isn't that bad. Why should you believe me instead of him? You shouldn't, necessarily; the only real proof you can have is to taste the pudding yourself (which apparently you have, and even you disagree with the guy).

As for the fact that his review has lots of upvotes, those aren't "I agree with you" upvotes; they are "this review was helpful" upvotes. That doesn't make him right, or trustworthy, or give his voice any credibility really at all. He's an articulate guy, but ... he's wrong. He's wrong when he says that an apology is in order or that the game is broken. You know this yourself, since you've played it.

I actually want DB to get out of this situation and be able to make a new game with all the things they learned from this, but for that, they actually need to break the downward spiral first, and it's gone down far enough that they can't actually ignore the (possibly intentionally trollbaited) opener.

Does this make sense? I fucking hope it does, because wowie, there's people between "Its gud, shut up"/"Lol u babby squeeler" and "Its shit omfg refunds"/"Behead all liar devs" and DB should be making money out of those. Currently they aren't, because their course is in need of some serious fucking correction rather than displays of emotion on social media. And yeah, this is an event that causes direct losses, unlike the previously discussed piracy.

OK, I see where you're coming from. You think they should apologize as a damage control measure, not because an apology is actually merited. I don't disagree on that. I'm not a PR person or a marketing person. My only point is that the guy is wrong, the game plays fine, and what he is calling for is stupid and unfair. If the guy has an army of (wrong) people who believe him, pacifying them with lies may be a good idea. Personally, I would be disappointed if it came to that because I have this thing about living in truth.

But in essence I think we agree. Carry on.

 

[Mastermind]

Annie's done far more damage than whoever flagged the review. If she stays then that person deserves a second chance too. Unless of course it was actually Annie who flagged it.

If she had just complained about it on twitter and tumblr without the flagging, hardly anyone would care and we wouldn't have an imgur pic with over a million views.

Basically it would have been equivalent to Brian Fargo crying on twitter about that bad score he got because of bugs.

If she had just ignored the guy from the start even less would have happened.

 

[RK47]

shut up it's fun.

 

[ST'Ranger]

edit: For clarity: http://steamcommunity.com/app/239840/discussions/0/627456359689053892/

Official Response About Review "Controversy"

The review poster was originally addressed on the forums, and after the thread began to get off-topic, it was closed down by a developer.

A second topic, which restated the exact same comments as the previous thread, was started by the same poster... That thread was closed by a moderator...

A third topic has been opened stating the exact same things as the first two threads. It has not been closed.

Spoiler

That thread was closed by a moderator, and after abusive comments towards both the devs and mods (including demanding a personal, public apology), a mod banned the original poster.

The original poster still posts with an alt, who has not been banned.

The poster, after being banned for abusive comments, posted a long review that focused less on the game, and more on DoubleBear as a company. The review contains only one line about the actual game, and instead focuses on the bugs in the game...

Spoiler

#justPRthings

 

[Roguey]

Brian's pedantry isn't going to make things any better. "That moderator flagged the review without my approval and has now been sacked" could have worked.

 

[Dexter]

http://techraptor.net/content/doublebear-dead-state-review-situation

Statement from Brian: http://steamcommunity.com/app/239840/discussions/0/627456359689053892/

I'm nobody - but the other guy is too. I just wanted to be clear on this: if you think DB is obligated to issue an apology based on that other guy's rant, you're wrong, because the game isn't that bad. Why should you believe me instead of him? You shouldn't, necessarily; the only real proof you can have is to taste the pudding yourself (which apparently you have, and even you disagree with the guy).

I don't really care about this either way, I KickStarted the game and haven't played yet - will probably not for a while and this entire "It's not complete yet and buggy" hasn't made me want to more. But this could be solved so easily, keep the passive aggressive shit from your Social media accounts and forums if you market a product and be at least respectful and businesslike, don't ban or try to shut up people for stupid reasons even if you don't like what they say and admit to mistakes. They didn't even need to admit they did anything wrong, just say that they were having budget problems or whatever, there are still some remaining issues and they are sorry that they launched too early and are going to fix it soon. Don't refer to some random forum guy, don't try to make excuses and "tell your side of the story", don't make accusations you can't possibly back up. They didn't even need to reply or make a statement about the guy. Instead they went ahead and did this, it's facepalm-worthy really.

This is heading for Derek Smart levels of cringe fast:

The latest controversy around him was a small mental breakdown over his newest game not being very well received, upon which he wrote this and did a “scorched earth” policy all over the Steam forums of the game deleting topics/posts (and also reviews tagging them as abusive or off-topic – there is a link to one in his own post: http://steamcommunity.com//id/smartbombradio/recommended/267220/ ) and banning an awful lot of people with Steam Mods apparently helping him to do that too: http://steamcommunity.com/app/267220/discussions/0/558747922093449025/

Derek Smart Marketing Masterclass:

 

[the_shadow]

You assume too much, then, because I have since the first release, and the bugs weren't major for my personal tastes. But who are you to tell me, exactly? Your word's worth should be more to me than some guy's, whose review was upvoted around a couple of thousand times at a storefront? Okay, sure, I believe you, stranger. Would you like the number of my credit card?

I'm nobody - but the other guy is too. I just wanted to be clear on this: if you think DB is obligated to issue an apology based on that other guy's rant, you're wrong, because the game isn't that bad. Why should you believe me instead of him? You shouldn't, necessarily; the only real proof you can have is to taste the pudding yourself (which apparently you have, and even you disagree with the guy).

As for the fact that his review has lots of upvotes, those aren't "I agree with you" upvotes; they are "this review was helpful" upvotes. That doesn't make him right, or trustworthy, or give his voice any credibility really at all. He's an articulate guy, but ... he's wrong. He's wrong when he says that an apology is in order or that the game is broken. You know this yourself, since you've played it.

I actually want DB to get out of this situation and be able to make a new game with all the things they learned from this, but for that, they actually need to break the downward spiral first, and it's gone down far enough that they can't actually ignore the (possibly intentionally trollbaited) opener.

Does this make sense? I fucking hope it does, because wowie, there's people between "Its gud, shut up"/"Lol u babby squeeler" and "Its shit omfg refunds"/"Behead all liar devs" and DB should be making money out of those. Currently they aren't, because their course is in need of some serious fucking correction rather than displays of emotion on social media. And yeah, this is an event that causes direct losses, unlike the previously discussed piracy.

OK, I see where you're coming from. You think they should apologize as a damage control measure, not because an apology is actually merited. I don't disagree on that. I'm not a PR person or a marketing person. My only point is that the guy is wrong, the game plays fine, and what he is calling for is stupid and unfair. If the guy has an army of (wrong) people who believe him, pacifying them with lies may be a good idea. Personally, I would be disappointed if it came to that because I have this thing about living in truth.

But in essence I think we agree. Carry on.

At this point, I don't think a public apology would do them any favours. If anything, it would further dig their grave, since it's essentially an admission of guilt after having claimed innocence. All the haters and drama queens would be using it as proof that the supposed early release was nothing more than a cash grab. IMHO, their best course of action would be to STFU and continue releasing bug fixes. People who refuse to buy a decent, enjoyable patched RPG because they don't like how the developers have acted towards particular drama queen customers are cutting off their own nose to spite their face. One day when RPGs are virtually obsolete because picky dimwits have driven decent gaming companies out of business, dumb shit 'old-school' gamers would look around at the ashes, smile, and proclaim "I win". Then they will return to an internet forum to bitch about how good RPGs are a lost art.

 

[Ovplain]

This is just so stupid. Who gives a shit if the guy DESERVES an apology or not? Deserve's got nothing to do with it. Who gives a shit if he's right or wrong? It doesn't matter. Fact is that the situation was NEEDLESSLY blown way out of proportion and could have been solved by just trying to keep the fucker calm and move him along as quickly as possible. With one of those generic 'we're sorry to hear you were unhappy with your purchase BUT...' fake apologies all companies use. MAYBE offer to give him a refund. Obviously I'm not the first person here to suggest this, it's just so fucking obvious.:S Too late now though.

 

[Zombra]

This is just so stupid. Who gives a shit if the guy DESERVES an apology or not? Deserve's got nothing to do with it. Who gives a shit if he's right or wrong?

When it comes to whether an RPG is worth buying or not? The Codex cares, I hope

 

[deuxhero]

This is going to hurt Age of Decadence too isn't it?

 

[Diablo169]

This is going to hurt Age of Decadence too isn't it?

Why would it?

 

[PanteraNera]

Tbh, I saw this coming, not in this scale but still. I followed DS before their Kickstarter Campaing, what really annoyed me back than was the "radio update", basically give us more money and we give you more information about the progress of the game. I for one think, the more I get people excited the better a game sells/gets publicity, bad move but what ever ... they need money.

Than I followed what one could read on their official forums, when ever someone gave critical, but helpful feedback they where shut down, I especially disliked the fanboy-forum-police, but well ... that doesn't says much about the game.

Than you read that Brian wants you to make PR for them ... that was with update 3 or so from EA, lots of bugs, writing was bad (at least to me), features missing and no real answers/clarifications ... . But well the game could ... get good when its released.

Honestly, I haven't tried it since it was released, I spent enough time in EA, to know ... what it is. And I did got addicted for a short time, but well, I don't speak for everyone, but there are so many issues with the game, that a lot of people stated on both the steam forum as in the official forum, but they just seemed to don't give a shit or worse getting butthurt.

There are so many indies these days, that communicate with their customers, that do a better job in PR, tbh I expected more from someone with a AAA background.

They could have been honest, saying that they run out of money and have to release the game, in not the state they wished it to be and call it my fantasy, my dreams or whatever, but what they talked about before KS, during KS and after KS, sounded a lot different to me from what they delivered.

They listened to the community, at one point thought, implementing the function to unload a gun, that is really big.

I thought I would become a DS fanboy at the very first moment I heared from it, that was I think three years ago, but now ... I do not feel sorry for them, they put them self in the spot they are in now. I do feel sorry for the team behind Annie and Brian thought!

 

[Ovplain]

This is just so stupid. Who gives a shit if the guy DESERVES an apology or not? Deserve's got nothing to do with it. Who gives a shit if he's right or wrong?

When it comes to whether an RPG is worth buying or not? The Codex cares, I hope

I was referring to the devs, more or less. As far as they're concerned, they shouldn't care. At least they shouldn't show it in the way that they did.

Look, YOU know that the guy was an irate jackass, I know the guy was an irate jackass, plenty of the people watching this drama do. But that doesn't change the fact that DB basically shot themselves in the foot on this one. Again, it's something that could have been solved relatively painlessly if they just went about it in a more business-like manner, instead, the whole thing's a giant clusterfuck now and who knows when or how it'll be resolved.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

They really shouldn't. The game has a few bugs but it is fine. Annie has already given as much apology as their known issues list deserves.

Wait I can just say hugs to random women on the internet and they'll be happy and reciprocate? Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. This is what happens when you grow up without the internet, you learn lies like "Grabbing random women is frowned upon". I need to unlearn this wrongthink and get with the times.

This is just so stupid. Who gives a shit if the guy DESERVES an apology or not? Deserve's got nothing to do with it. Who gives a shit if he's right or wrong? It doesn't matter. Fact is that the situation was NEEDLESSLY blown way out of proportion and could have been solved by just trying to keep the fucker calm and move him along as quickly as possible. With one of those generic 'we're sorry to hear you were unhappy with your purchase BUT...' fake apologies all companies use. MAYBE offer to give him a refund. Obviously I'm not the first person here to suggest this, it's just so fucking obvious.:S Too late now though.

Pretty much, yup. I mostly agreed with the dude's review (I take a less dim view on the bugs than he does but I can see how it would piss someone off) but I don't really agree with his "I am drawing a line in the internet sand, releasing buggy shit early stops here!" bit, but! But! I don't have any problem with him saying it and generally speaking Doublebear should let him say whatever and courteous to him.
Like someone else mentioned in here "The customer's always right" isn't technically true but you act that way because even if you eat a minor loss by making some schlub happy it reflects well on your business and you'll get money from other people. Even if that doesn't convert the person into praising you, others may see that you bent over backwards to make good and that impresses 'em.
And another thing, this isn't like... Uh... That indie developer a while back that was saying "Fuck all customers, you bought my game for 3 cents in a bundle I hate you I hate you I hate you I'm never supporting you". That's stupid enough as it is, but in this case the dude had to have spent whatever the minimum Kickstarter fee was or whatever the game costs on Steam for full-ish price since he had it in early access. So it's shitting on someone who theoretically spent the maximum amount of money possible for a copy of your game, who has potentially the largest vested interest in enjoying your goddamn game.

 

[RK47]

shut up cow, i already got your money.

 

[Zombra]

They really shouldn't. The game has a few bugs but it is fine. Annie has already given as much apology as their known issues list deserves.

Wait I can just say hugs to random women on the internet and they'll be happy and reciprocate? Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. This is what happens when you grow up without the internet, you learn lies like "Grabbing random women is frowned upon". I need to unlearn this wrongthink and get with the times.

I don't get the analogy at all, but I enjoyed it

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

To be completely honest I'm not entirely sure where I was going with that either. Just burying my head in some internet garbage to try to coast through Christmas.

 

[HanoverF]

You clearly need a hug.

Spoiler

You won't be getting one.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

You clearly need a hug.

Spoiler

You won't be getting one.

I come to you now HanoverF in the spirit of the Dead State thread.

Which is to say

Spoiler

SURPRISE NON-CONSENSUAL HUG WHICH IS CERTAINLY NOT PLAYER CHARACTER RAPE

Although on that note I do feel slightly guilty about my slovenliness on Christmas eve. Last week I baked assloads of cookies and passed 'em out to my neighbors, then this evening there was a knock on the door and it was the neighbor's daughter bringing me a little Christmas goodie bag of candy. Which is nice and all except when there's a disheveled Cow standing there in baggy bumming around clothes, hair wild since I need to cut it and have been too lazy to for like a month, probably crumbs in my beard from making and nibbling on my stollen and lightly covered in POWDERED SUGAR NOT COCAINE OR SEMEN I SWEAR. Probably not what she wanted to see just before Christmas but oh well. At least I had pants on. Have to slob it up as much as I can before it's family time and I'll be expected to be presentable.

Taking this thread over in the name of slobbery during the holidays. No longer about shitlord harassers or evil indie developers cheating people, now it's about not bathing on Christmas and rolling out of bed and straight into coffee and baked goods and not leaving until the weekend. Also being pissed that it's been gray and overcast for like 4 goddamn weeks now without having the balls to actually rain or snow. Fuck you, weather. Fuck you.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

You'd think all their experience with the Codex would have given them the skills to deal with this.

Apparently not.

 

[Saduj]

So when the game was released, I bought it. And then I learned that its a bit of a mess. It is entirely fair to say the release was rushed. And the logical conclusion is that the decision to rush the release is probably due to a desire to generate some income. Worked on me. They released it and I bought it. But I've barely played the game and won't be playing it again for some time. I'll wait for them to fix it and I still expect to eventually enjoy the game.

When you say you "learned" it was a mess, was that from hearing about the bugs or actually playing the game? Honest question, not trying to be a dick.

It is a fair question. I had just started playing the game and ran into some minor issues. During the tutorial my character got stuck out of combat and I had to enter turn based mode and then end combat before he would move. Finished the tutorial and saved the game. Game crashed on startup the next time I tried to play. I've noticed lines of text touching each other in shelter tab in inventory management, which you could call lack of polish. Based on the few issues I had after playing only a few hours, I started to look into what other people were saying. And what I was reading just made me decide to wait until the game is in better shape before I start playing again. In my opinion, some of the things on the list I posted earlier are bad enough that they should have taken the time to fix them before releasing the game. As far as I know the list of known bugs isn't being disputed by DB. Although I have seen your comments saying you've only experience minor issues.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I actually want DB to get out of this situation and be able to make a new game with all the things they learned from this, but for that, they actually need to break the downward spiral first

AHAHAHA. That was never going to happen. Even before TrollGuy. DeadState was never going to sell enough copies for them to do much of anything afterwards.

 

[Neckbeard Shitlord]

At this point, I don't think a public apology would do them any favours. If anything, it would further dig their grave, since it's essentially an admission of guilt after having claimed innocence. All the haters and drama queens would be using it as proof that the supposed early release was nothing more than a cash grab.

It's hard to paint it as anything else.

IMHO, their best course of action would be to STFU and continue releasing bug fixes.

That, and in general making a great game, was always the best course. People act like this PR thing is an issue. It's more like a symptom. If people liked the game more and the EA issue wasn't annoying then they would laugh at the retard.

There's actually been a whole shitload of dramatic retarded statements from DB LONG BEFORE KICKSTARTER, ENDLESSLY ON AND ON SINCE DAY ONE. Delusional ravings from the outset and unrealistic claims. All of these things become proven OK by making a great game, if it's not so great or if it's buggy as crap (let alone both) then this just makes you look extra dumb on top of not making as much as you hoped.

People who refuse to buy a decent, enjoyable patched RPG because they don't like how the developers have acted towards particular drama queen customers are cutting off their own nose to spite their face.

One day when RPGs are virtually obsolete because picky dimwits have driven decent gaming companies out of business, dumb shit 'old-school' gamers would look around at the ashes, smile, and proclaim "I win". Then they will return to an internet forum to bitch about how good RPGs are a lost art.

I've been saying this at least ten years but once again - WHO, WHERE, WHERE THE FUCK ARE THESE PEOPLE MAKING THIS GREAT INDIE GAMES WHO I AM FAILING TO SUPPORT?!

No one really bashed on knights of the chalice, sadly that didn't make it sell enough to make the maker rich or even really keep him going. There is some serious, incredible "realz vs feelz" insanity in people like Anni Shitsoda. Some little PR gaff or ONE BAD REVIEW ON STEAM doesn't make your game tank. Your game tanks because people can't be bothered to give a shit.

For some few people this combination of game features was like the holy grail. It left most people scratching their heads right out of the door. X years later and twenty million retarded shits later, they care even less. They probably got about all the sales they were ever going to get back on kickstarter and the initial Early Access already. Only by making some incredoble game that goes way beyond their budget and apparent talents were they ever going to get 2, 3, 4 million in sales.

They should be thanking their stars they got what they did and not whining that they didn't get enough money to make the next game before this one is completely fixed! Very few game studios ever get to that point. To think they have had to spend some of their OWN TIME for FREE on it. TEH HOORORS1!

 

[Angthoron]

You think they should apologize as a damage control measure, not because an apology is actually merited.

Yep. I don't mean it in the sense of apology being "owed" to the guy, no. In fact, if DB completely ignored him the first time around, he'd only end up looking like a total idiot after bumping his own thread a hundred times. You see those people on Steam forums for just about every game, and they invariably look pathetic. So why do a stunning reversal and end up making the guy look like some internet martyr while looking pathetic themselves? Damn it, that doesn't need marketing or PR skills, that just needs some common sense. Don't engage in retard olympics, it'll take your time and you'll probably end up losing through participation anyway.

My only point is that the guy is wrong, the game plays fine, and what he is calling for is stupid and unfair.

The game is in a playable state. It lacks polish and needs bug squashing, but it's entirely playable.

If the guy has an army of (wrong) people who believe him, pacifying them with lies may be a good idea. Personally, I would be disappointed if it came to that because I have this thing about living in truth.

To lie about what, though? There's no need for lying. There's tools for shutting down unhappy/hostile customers, they're not complex, they don't involve lying, threatening, complaining, none of that. Most of it can be figured through common sense (although sadly DB figureheads have shown very little of that throughout this stuff)

But in essence I think we agree.

Yup.

I actually want DB to get out of this situation and be able to make a new game with all the things they learned from this, but for that, they actually need to break the downward spiral first

AHAHAHA. That was never going to happen. Even before TrollGuy. DeadState was never going to sell enough copies for them to do much of anything afterwards.

What I want may only be loosely based on reality sometimes, like hot sex with Angela Merkel and Margaret Thatcher.

IMHO, their best course of action would be to STFU and continue releasing bug fixes.

That, and in general making a great game, was always the best course. People act like this PR thing is an issue.

Well, in DB's case it's also a fairly major issue - they seem to have decided to do PR and community stuff without actually knowing how to do it. Annie outright admitted it, but look - she's very much engaged in it now, and with some amazingly poor results. The way I see it, they should've either got someone that knows their shit, or done none of it at all. Lack of PR didn't harm the sales of Banished and Gunpoint, at most what those guys did was dev diaries, which would probably be a good way to get their name out into the open for DB. Post about challenges, thought processes, development, things that they enjoy and things that make them pull their hair, shit like that. If they want a human face to the business, that's what they should've doubled down on. Hell, they could've even perfectly justified the early launch through their blog and people would go "D'aww, I'll buy TWO copies to support these brotastic starving artists".

 

[Trash]

Ignore trolls, especially don't respond to trolls when tired, don't get too emotional and quickly and quietly offer shitty loudmouth customers a refund. Make it a mantra and have every indie dev pin it over their monitors. Problem solved.