Incline D&D games really should all come with module editors like NWN

[Gargaune]

One also apparently needs a large community of players who are actually interested in the toolset. Most people are not going to do much with an editor unless they know there are people out there willing to play and give a friendly critique to what they produce.

Completely agree, and I think this is something that Beamdog got wrong with NWN EE. They had a steady stream of features for module builders, but player-oriented content was slow and sparse. They rushed it, they should've launched with DoD EE out the door and TotM on its heels within a couple of months, then followed up with another expansion or two. You can't kickstart a modding community if there isn't a healthy supply of active players to feed them props for their work.

Come to think of it, the questionable quality of NWN's OC might also have helped in the same way. I know it encouraged me. When I first purchased NWN I expected I would have some fun playing around with the toolset (as I had with editors for other games) but never imagined I would be able to make anything remotely on a professional level. After playing the OC my reaction was something like: "WTF is this? I could make a better RPG campaign than this in my sleep!"

There's a plot twist for you, it was tough love all along.

There’s a reason that the top rated mods on nwvault back in the day (Lone Wolf, A Dance with Rogues, etc.) were to a large degree adventure games: the combat implementation of 3E in NWN was shit. There’s just nothing you can do to NWN combat to make it not shit. The best you can do is make it be over quickly.

I can think of one thing that would make it less shit... but it if there's one thing that BioWare, Beamdog and Larian all have in common, aside from a Baldur's Gate IP, it's a visceral hatred for sensible companion controls. Or maybe it's more of that tough love thing.

 

[d1nolore]

Beamdog did add some great features, just unfortunately introduced some instability and bugs.

BioWare and Beamdog both tried to make premium modules profitable but neither succeeded. BioWare dropped it, I imagine just not worth their time. Beamdog also seems to have dropped it for now. I think it could work on a smaller scale but just not profitable for big studios.

If BioWare had implemented some of the module searching features Beamdog did it would have boosted community modules a lot back in the day.

I mean the question for these companies is is it more profitable than just making the next big single player game. I don’t think it is that’s why it’s not emulated.

 

[Gargaune]

Beamdog did add some great features, just unfortunately introduced some instability and bugs.

They did add some cool stuff, but slowly over a long period of time post-release. At launch, NWN EE's only real selling point to players was modern compatibility for those few who had trouble with the Diamond Edition, basically a fraction of a legacy player base. Hard to get mass excitement going with that and you can't raise as much awareness with in-service updates as you can with your release campaign.

I think Oster's instincts were fundamentally correct, and that brings us back to the thread topic, that a powerful yet accessible content creation platform like Aurora could drive a successful product in our contemporary gaming environment, with its wider interest in modding, even if it's graphically deprecated. But they went about it the wrong way in not first animating the player base to give builder types an audience, which ties in to what rogueknight333 said.

 

[bylam]

The "can't sell DLCs" argument doesn't hold water. Conan Exiles has a lot of paid DLCs and a lot of mods. They aren't mutually exclusive at all.

 

[rogueknight333]

Bioware did not choose to drop their premium module program because it was unprofitable. They were forced to do so by Atari (at the time the holder of the rights to make D&D cRPGs) refusing them permission to make more, apparently because Atari wanted to focus on NWN2 and perhaps other planned D&D games. Beamdog has not explained why they have given up on their premium module program (or AFAIK even formally admitted they have given up on it, though it seems clear they have, at least for the time being), but it seems quite possible they also did so due to licensing issues.

 

[d1nolore]

Bioware did not choose to drop to drop their premium module program because it was unprofitable. They were forced to do so by Atari (at the time the holder of the rights to make D&D cRPGs) refusing them permission to make more, apparently because Atari wanted to focus on NWN2 and perhaps other planned D&D games. Beamdog has not explained why they have given up on their premium module program (or AFAIK even formally admitted they have given up on it, though it seems clear they have, at least for the time being), but it seems quite possible they also did so due to licensing issues.

Thats not something I considered, the licensing. That one large benefit of community made mods then.

Didn’t Beamdog say they had developed the HD texture and model pack for an upcoming mod but had scrapped the idea so released for free?

Beamdog have strange practices so it wouldn’t surprise me if they came back to NWN development but it seems they have moved on for the foreseeable future.

 

[Gargaune]

The "can't sell DLCs" argument doesn't hold water. Conan Exiles has a lot of paid DLCs and a lot of mods. They aren't mutually exclusive at all.

Agreed, that angle's exaggerated, it really depends on the type of content. An active modding community might dip a little into your Horse Armour sales, but it won't put a dent in official quest and campaign sales, and on the flipside you've got viral marketing and free QA to reap.

Bioware did not choose to drop to drop their premium module program because it was unprofitable. They were forced to do so by Atari (at the time the holder of the rights to make D&D cRPGs) refusing them permission to make more, apparently because Atari wanted to focus on NWN2 and perhaps other planned D&D games.

I seem to recall there was a lot of confusion about the PM program. At one point, PM developers were told that they weren't allowed to use the Forgotten Realms license, then that it was mandatory to use it, then the PM program got cancelled out of the blue, even nixing DoD just a couple of weeks before release, and then Atari changed their mind but only for one PM in particular, WCoC, which was allowed to launch. It's hard to tell what the hell was going on in the publishers' heads at the time. Maybe controlled substances.

Didn’t Beamdog say they had developed the HD texture and model pack for an upcoming mod but had scrapped the idea so released for free?

First time I heard that. The way I remember it, the HD Art Pack was promised ages ago as an eventual update, been on the books since the EE's release. I believe there were some tentative plans for more modules, but I'm not aware of any having been linked to the new visual assets.

 

[Cryomancer]

FriendlyMerchant wanna a module where he play as an gnome wanting to establish a gnome trade nation.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

FriendlyMerchant wanna a module where he play as an gnome wanting to establish a gnome trade nation.

Thank you Khazarian poster. I just became aroused by the idea.

 

[rogueknight333]

I seem to recall there was a lot of confusion about the PM program. At one point, PM developers were told that they weren't allowed to use the Forgotten Realms license, then that it was mandatory to use it, then the PM program got cancelled out of the blue, even nixing DoD just a couple of weeks before release, and then Atari changed their mind but only for one PM in particular, WCoC, which was allowed to launch. It's hard to tell what the hell was going on in the publishers' heads at the time. Maybe controlled substances.

Yes, Atari at the time put a lot of strange, stupid and shifting demands on the premium module program that ultimately sabotaged the whole thing. Even so, I vaguely recall a Bioware dev back in the day claiming that they actually did manage to make a profit off the premium modules they made, albeit just barely (or something to that effect). If true, that suggests that a similar program in the hands of a publisher who actually marketed the thing properly instead of undermining it would definitely have the potential to be quite profitable.