Conan Exiles - Funcom strikes again

[Fedora Master]

I don't see how any of those games have emergent gameplay. In fact, Minecraft and EU are extremely static. Unless your definition of "emergent" is "Something happens to which the player must react". In which case even Conan has plenty of emergent gameplay in the form of fucking hyenas or crocs biting your ass and the player reacting by killing them.

 

[thesheeep]

Sorry Fedora Master , but someone telling me he doesn't see how something like RimWorld, Empyrion or EU has emergent gameplay just tells me they don't know what emergent gameplay is.
Minecraft... yeah, not too emergent, maybe shouldn't have been in the list.
But Europa Universalis is one of the most emergent games out there. The world is static, sure (it's the Earth, well duh!).
You never fully know what will happen (especially not many years ahead), who you will be best buddies with, who will be a threat, what will happen outside of your view, etc etc.

Your definition isn't even far off.

Unless your definition of "emergent" is "Something happens to which the player must react".

Make that "Something happens - as a result of the rules of the game and the AI, but not man-made placement - to which the player must react".
Emergent, as in, well... it emerges. On its own, simply because all the parts of the game interact with each other.
Quite often, games with emergent gameplay don't even require the player. You could just go into the world and watch it evolve on its own. Of which EU would again be a perfect example.
Looking at my list, games with a lot of simulations going on seem to fit the bill often. Makes sense.

The problem with Conan (if I get it right) is then not that there is nothing emergent at all, but that it is very little (if it is really only monster spawns) and very bad.

 

[Fedora Master]

Emergent, as in, well... it emerges. On its own, simply because all the parts of the game interact with each other.
Quite often, games with emergent gameplay don't even require the player. You could just go into the world and watch it evolve on its own.

But that doesn't happen in Ark either as far as I am aware. Monster infighting is about the height of emergent behavior and Conan does have that too. Fuck, 90s era shooters had it.
In the case of EU it's sadly rather predictable which nation will be successful simply because there's the Lucky Nations mechanic or downright imbalance (lol Mingblob).

Empyrion and Space Engineers are also completely static worlds, nothing happens unless the player is there to cause a chain reaction.

 

[thesheeep]

Emergent, as in, well... it emerges. On its own, simply because all the parts of the game interact with each other.
Quite often, games with emergent gameplay don't even require the player. You could just go into the world and watch it evolve on its own.

But that doesn't happen in Ark either as far as I am aware. Monster infighting is about the height of emergent behavior and Conan does have that too. Fuck, 90s era shooters had it.
In the case of EU it's sadly rather predictable which nation will be successful simply because there's the Lucky Nations mechanic or downright imbalance (lol Mingblob).

Empyrion and Space Engineers are also completely static worlds, nothing happens unless the player is there to cause a chain reaction.

EU becomes somewhat predictable only once you spent a lot of time playing it, know the rules and the typical big players. Not too many games where you cannot eventually see the patterns.
Even the forming of patterns that can be recognized is a proof of emergence on its own. Nobody hard-coded which nations will eventually end up on top, will form alliances, marry, etc. - except maybe with historical lucky nations, but using that is your own damn fault.
Nobody hard-coded it, yet all experienced players know some of these typical patterns that just emerge as a result of the game's rules.

Just like nobody hardcoded which nation will be victor in M&B, or which settlements thrive in RimWorld.

But do you really want to bicker about every single game I listed now? I thought it quite obvious I just created it without thinking too hard about every entry and it is a very incomplete list.
I honestly don't know what point you are trying to get across here.

 

[Fedora Master]

I honestly don't know what point you are trying to get across here.

Well, you argued that emergent gameplay can be a core mechanic on its own and I don't think that's the case and some of your examples seemed a little off.
Sadly there isn't too much in Exiles that people can do to shake things up even on a MP server and that is one of the core problems of the game, I think we both agree there. You can fart around and troll other people or I suppose log back in and be trolled and that's about it.

 

[bylam]

Point is, ADD NPC's, ADD STORIES, make the fucking world interesting. I want living breathing towns with traders, busy markets, side quests, stories with interesting characters, etc. I don't want a barren world where I am doing nothing but fighting such imaginary monsters as.. THE WOLVES!

To be fair though, nobody ever sold you the game on those things. We've been extremely clear that this game is not that type of game. If the argument is "I want that type of game in the Conan IP", hey I am right with you. But Conan: Exiles was never that game, nor ever advertised as that game.

 

[thesheeep]

I honestly don't know what point you are trying to get across here.

Well, you argued that emergent gameplay can be a core mechanic on its own and I don't think that's the case and some of your examples seemed a little off.

I don't think I argued that, and if I did I blame alcohol.
Emergent gameplay can be the result of mechanics in a game.

Sadly there isn't too much in Exiles that people can do to shake things up even on a MP server and that is one of the core problems of the game, I think we both agree there. You can fart around and troll other people or I suppose log back in and be trolled and that's about it.

Sounds like Rust, then. I do like to watch streamers play it from time to time in the background, but it doesn't seem like something I would enjoy playing myself too much.

Still, as I said I will probably give it a shot, eventually.
At least until running around nekkid will wear off.

 

[Mortmal]

Point is, ADD NPC's, ADD STORIES, make the fucking world interesting. I want living breathing towns with traders, busy markets, side quests, stories with interesting characters, etc. I don't want a barren world where I am doing nothing but fighting such imaginary monsters as.. THE WOLVES!

To be fair though, nobody ever sold you the game on those things. We've been extremely clear that this game is not that type of game. If the argument is "I want that type of game in the Conan IP", hey I am right with you. But Conan: Exiles was never that game, nor ever advertised as that game.

Well at least you know what to sell us next time. I am not expecting anyone doing that, a living breath world sandboxx MMO reactive to player actions, its something no one managed ever .Its godlike expectations.

 

[bozia2012]

Point is, ADD NPC's, ADD STORIES, make the fucking world interesting. I want living breathing towns with traders, busy markets, side quests, stories with interesting characters, etc. I don't want a barren world where I am doing nothing but fighting such imaginary monsters as.. THE WOLVES!

To be fair though, nobody ever sold you the game on those things. We've been extremely clear that this game is not that type of game. If the argument is "I want that type of game in the Conan IP", hey I am right with you. But Conan: Exiles was never that game, nor ever advertised as that game.

Secret World single-player action-adventure game confirmed!

EDIT: Shit, I also miss Hyboria - but I can't play AoC anymore, so much tears. Make a fucking single-player Conan. You know how to build worlds, you know how to tell stories ffs.

 

[Zombra]

Well at least you know what to sell us next time.

I wish bylam was in charge of new project concept development. He's already shown he has excellent taste. Sadly it seems he "just works there".

 

[Mortmal]

Well at least you know what to sell us next time.

I wish bylam was in charge of new project concept development. He's already shown he has excellent taste. Sadly it seems he "just works there".

Bah, enough backstabbing , some boot licking , and some opportunism and he will become lead dev in no time !

 

[bylam]

Well at least you know what to sell us next time.

I wish bylam was in charge of new project concept development. He's already shown he has excellent taste. Sadly it seems he "just works there".

It's complicated. I have some say but creatives are considered unreliable when it comes to the business side of things. So, while I can make an excellent case for a single player Conan or TSW game from the perspective of our storytelling and world building, it is harder to argue that we can reach the level of quality that means success.

 

[Fedora Master]

LOL @ Funcom calling other people unreliable when it comes to business. I mean, c'mon.

 

[ortucis]

I want the list of all those titles. I wanna know if I've played those amazing emergent titles.

Well, that's fairly easy, isn't it?

In no order (some are better than others), just what comes to mind right now:
Factorio
Minecraft
RimWorld
Ark (and many of its "clones", like Conan Exiles is, some are good, some are bad, but Ark itself was pretty good)
Empyrion (was still rough a year ago, but man was it great to build my own spaceship starting with just a handful of dirt, then flying to the moon with it and getting shot by some turrets there)
Space Engineers (though I find it boring as hell, some won't play anything else, I guess)
Golf With Your Friends (just checking if you are actually reading this)
Oxygen Not Included
Games like Theme Park/Rollercoaster Tycoon (and its newer clones)/Cities Skylines also live just from their rules, even if some offer a story on the side
Mount & Blade
Dominions
Europa Universalis
Space Pirates And Zombies 2 (don't let the title fool you, it is pretty amazing)
Some Roguelikes to a medium to large extent - especially those like Dwarf Fortress or Cataclysm DDA which have a whole world going on around you.

And I'm sure I forgot far more titles than I mentioned.
All of these aren't good because of some story or some "handplaced content", but simply because of their rules, dynamics and the emergent gameplay that leads to.
As you can see, this isn't even bound to a genre. There are FPS, too, though I must say I found none of those very captivating.

I said "amazing" titles. Proceeds to list some of the most shittiest games in market, similar to Conan. Half of these games I own already, and games like ARK and Empyrion suffer from same issues as Conan. Waste time developing shit > No pay-off. Empyrion is in-fact, one of THE worst games out there. The NPC AI is fucking brain dead, kinda like Conan. Only thing "emergent" that happens in Empyrion is that if you build a base, AI sends jets to attack you. But just build 2 turrets on roof and you're done. No more threat to your base.

You know, players writing imaginary reviews "OMG MY TEAM GOT ADDICTED TO AIDS AND KILLED EACH OTHER", like with Rimworld, doesn't make it a good game. You can imagine that shit in any game. The whole point of my initial complain with Conan is them using Conan license to sell a shit average game with terrible combat, retarded AI and barren game world. There is NOTHING interesting about it (but I guess it's more emergent than the others).

Point is, ADD NPC's, ADD STORIES, make the fucking world interesting. I want living breathing towns with traders, busy markets, side quests, stories with interesting characters, etc. I don't want a barren world where I am doing nothing but fighting such imaginary monsters as.. THE WOLVES!

To be fair though, nobody ever sold you the game on those things. We've been extremely clear that this game is not that type of game. If the argument is "I want that type of game in the Conan IP", hey I am right with you. But Conan: Exiles was never that game, nor ever advertised as that game.

You're right, I was expecting a developer to not waste a license like Conan, to create a generic branch collecting simulator. Let's just complain about what that trailer promises then, shall we?

In Conan Exiles, you'll be struggling to survive in a world where you spawn (then given a free water pouch) and after a mild jog, end up right next to a freakin lake supplying you unlimited water. There are trees, stones and branches all around that lake for you to build and lamest re-spawning enemies to feast on (along with fishes from that lake, insects from bushes..). So this so called "LAND OF DESPERATION", feeds you, provides drinks and allows you to create chainmail armor, few meters from your spawn point.

In-fact, in this land of desperation, you'll be creating such desperate things like workbenches, furnaces, carpenter's benches, tanneries, etc. after your first few steps (even on official servers).

"A wasteland of the exiled and outcast".. if you can find others playing the game, else it truly IS a wasteland. On PvP, if there are players, they'll keep destroying anything you create, so becoming part of a large clan in this "land of desperation" will allow you to wield high level armors and weapons along with a large meat/water supply, so you can go destroy houses instead of spend time creating anything.

On PvE, with any threat of human players removed, you're set for life. There IS no threat anymore. Even the sandstorm is a mild post-processing filter animated in Blueprints inside Unreal, lasting for like a minute, doing nothing (since 2016, that sandstorm has been doing nothing). Enemies get stuck underwater, so build a house somewhere near a small pond and you'll have 2-3 Rhino's, Ostriches and Corcs, just stuck under water, for you to go kill and take all the meat and leather in the world (every day). You REALLY feel that desperation in PvE..


I could go on but I wish I could refund this land of desperation.

 

[bylam]

I could go on but I wish I could refund this land of desperation.

If you PM me your paypal or something, I can probably make that happen.

 

[Mortmal]

ortucis, you are really not enjoying the games sheep listed ? Bet you dont enjoy anything at all, use the conan paypal refund wisely to pay for your first psycho therapy session, that's what you really need. You are not the only codexer who suffers from that.

 

[agentorange]

Yet another funcom game that would have been better served being a single-player game.

 

[ortucis]

Yet another funcom game that would have been better served being a single-player game.

Or by being a better game.

ortucis, you are really not enjoying the games sheep listed ? Bet you dont enjoy anything at all, use the conan paypal refund wisely to pay for your first psycho therapy session, that's what you really need. You are not the only codexer who suffers from that.

I could go on but I wish I could refund this land of desperation.

If you PM me your paypal or something, I can probably make that happen.

I changed my mind. Now I'm REALLY curious about the game changing update that will change everything. I haven't even bothered writing a Steam review yet (I usually don't), can't at all if I refund it.

 

[Zombra]

Excuses. You could write a review and then refund it.

 

[ortucis]

Excuses. You could write a review and then refund it.

Yeah but I'm not a thieving bastard. If I've played a game enough, I don't refund it (even though I want to). I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy building stuff on unofficial servers with 5x XP + Item gain for a few hours, when I first played the game.

 

[Fedora Master]

So after playing around for a while I gotta say, the fundamental problem of all sandbox games, namely time sinks to waste your time, is still there. The new UI is nice but that doesn't change the fact that you have to fuck around way too much with everything. Gather hides to turn into leather to turn into base components for armor. Gather iron to turn into ingots to turn into tools that break slightly slower. I enjoy the Conan setting a lot and I can tell that the devs are into it as well but it's still just another half-finished pointless sandbox at the end. A meme game that was made purely as a reaction to other more successful meme games.

 

[bylam]

I changed my mind. Now I'm REALLY curious about the game changing update that will change everything. I haven't even bothered writing a Steam review yet (I usually don't), can't at all if I refund it.

I can respect that. The update won't change any of the things you listed though. It makes combat not be tedious (hopefully) and closes the build loop in PvE (hopefully).

Gather hides to turn into leather to turn into base components for armor. Gather iron to turn into ingots to turn into tools that break slightly slower.

It's amazing how many people love that simple game-loop though. Plenty of reasons why, but yeah the codex is the last place in the world where I really expect to encounter people who dig the base progression of a survival game.

 

[Fedora Master]

Gather hides to turn into leather to turn into base components for armor. Gather iron to turn into ingots to turn into tools that break slightly slower.

It's amazing how many people love that simple game-loop though. Plenty of reasons why, but yeah the codex is the last place in the world where I really expect to encounter people who dig the base progression of a survival game.

I understand why the progression is designed the way it is but the steps required are a little excessive. This is from a SP experience though, I'm sure it works better when you have a group of people gathering things and sharing resources.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Having a lot of fun with the game now. It's a low bar, but this is my favorite crafter game, for what it's worth. And not just because of the Conan / Sword & Sorcery flavor (though it helps) but because I think it has the most satisfying mechanics in the genre. Between this and Age of Conan it's really clear that Funcom has incredible talent when it comes to realizing savage Sword & Sorcery games. Unfortunately it's unlikely that they will ever put that talent to good use on a real single player RPG.

 

[ortucis]

Having a lot of fun with the game now. It's a low bar, but this is my favorite crafter game, for what it's worth. And not just because of the Conan / Sword & Sorcery flavor (though it helps) but because I think it has the most satisfying mechanics in the genre. Between this and Age of Conan it's really clear that Funcom has incredible talent when it comes to realizing savage Sword & Sorcery games. Unfortunately it's unlikely that they will ever put that talent to good use on a real single player RPG.