Game News Company of Heroes 2 gets Metacritic bombed by upset Russians

[Grinolf]

Maybe better not do it? One thing, mock that game and scare publisher about potential market losses, the other thing is welcoming government into regulation of game industry. Especially russian government. I am pretty sure, that results will be very idiotic and shameful. Also russian government not so long ago put 40m$ into film, that makes CoH2 very adequate and truthful representation of WW2, so I don't know, how would they explain difference between them.

What film?

Burnt by the Sun 2.
That film caused huge scandals in Russia, not only because it content, but also because use budget money on it and abuse of director authority, when that film was choosen on Oscar nominee.
On top of that it was box office disaster, with the first part of the film gather not impressive 7,5m.$ and the second part shameful 1,5m.$, when the both parts needed to gather at least 80m.$
There are review on that film by the guy, that also made CoH review. First part:

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Burnt by the Sun 2.
That film caused huge scandals in Russia, not only because it content, but also because use budget money on it and abuse of director authority, when that film was choosen on Oscar nominee.
On top of that it was box office disaster, with the first part of the film gather not impressive 7,5m.$ and the second part shameful 1,5m.$, when the both parts needed to gather at least 80m.$

Funny thing, I watched two hours of this movie today. It's quite good.

There are review on that film by the guy, that also made CoH review. First part:

Does he also have a review of Apocalypse Now?

 

[Grinolf]

Funny thing, I watched two hours of this movie today. It's quite good.

If you mean, that director has some talent, then yes it was created not by some skill less nobody, and he made some good movies in the past. But now he lost all his reputation in various scandals, and far from all were about that movie.
But if you mean movie as a whole, including script and characters, then I don't know what to say. Scenes with shitting out of plane or kissing naval mine, in my opinion, are strong enough to kill all weak willed viewers. And main character is shameless mary sue of director, which he played by himself.
Also film before realize position himself as blockbuster with high level of historical details. But after big flop, it all suddenly transformed into fantasy art house, full of christian allegories, and it wasn't good even in that role.

Does he also have a review of Apocalypse Now?

Looking at his channel I didn't find it. It is mostly about shitty modern russian films and crazy indian remakes of Hollywood.

 

[Whisper]

Ok, this can't be real. DU cannot be really so :patriot:

Seems, he can.

GULAG is abbreviation for Concentration camp.

Mr. DarkUnderlord can probably look up in wiki or another source where first concentration camps appeared and who invented them.

 

[Trash]

I watched the video by TheBadComedian, he makes some good points (but also some crap). The footage from the game speaks for itself.
He nailed it with "the plot campaign and video sequences show us that the war is not with the Reich - the war is with the Soviet Union".

His video is pretty shit, yes, but the idea to start this campaing is pure genius.

The political situation in Russia now is perfect for this, with Putin making a bet on conservative electorate - we just had to signal to 1C that we intend to make them the next Pussy Riot to be sacrificed in order to gain popular support for the government.
I am sure 1C wouldn't have given a single fuck even if 100 000 gamers signed a petition, but as soon as this story started gaining notion from political websites and movements, they immediately chickend out.

Basically says all there is to say about Russia. Am however lolling about Russians now actually celebrating to be living in a corrupt semi-dictatorship that's all about enriching the clique around Putin. Gopniks. All of them.

 

[Burning Bridges]

I made this table for combat losses (no pows included) a few years ago during similiar discussion on codex, unfortunately i don't remember the source, but you can see that total numbers are generally consistent with mainstream estimates provided on eastern front wiki page:

USSR vs Axis

1941:
802,191 vs 307,553 = 2,61 : 1
1942:
1,742,955 vs 537,922 = 3,24 : 1
1943:
1,944,653 vs 792,764 = 2,45 : 1
1944:
1,596,328 vs 1,507,623 = 1,05 : 1
1945:
732,108 vs 1,230,045 = 1 : 1,68
Total: 6818235 vs 4375907 = 1,56 : 1

Hamster I made my own estimation from various sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II

Total operational losses (including KIA, MIA, POW)

Soviet Union

Krivosheev: 11,4m
Mikhalev: 12,5m
Zemskov: 11,5m
Il’enkov: 14,2m
Iglev: 20,58m ?

Germany (Eastern Front)

(before Jan 31 '45)
official OKW 2,1m
official Soviet 3,8m
R.Overmans 2,7m

(after Jan 31 '45)
official OKW unknown/incomplete
official Soviet 1,2m
R.Overmans (for all fronts): 1,2m

Ignoring Iglev's doubtful figure of 20 million, an estimation of the total operational losses (including POWS, and irrespective of POW death) would be:

Red Army 11 - 14m
Wehrmacht: 3 - 5m

Of course it's possible to make totals that subtract POWs (Soviet 5,7m Germany 2,8 million), but I don't see the point.

 

[baturinsky]

GULAG is abbreviation for Concentration camp.

Mr. DarkUnderlord can probably look up in wiki or another source where first concentration camps appeared and who invented them.

"Gulag" means "labor camp", not "concentration camp".

 

[Burning Bridges]

I watched the video by TheBadComedian, he makes some good points (but also some crap). The footage from the game speaks for itself.
He nailed it with "the plot campaign and video sequences show us that the war is not with the Reich - the war is with the Soviet Union".

His video is pretty shit, yes, but the idea to start this campaing is pure genius.

Of course the video is shit, once he begins to belittle "Red Army committed crimes, but so did every army", or calling WW2 veterans "pussies". His comment on shooting a German soldier was also a bit stupid, but excusable if one remembers 30 million dead russians. But the main point (about CoH2) is that the actions shown in the game are "illogical", that the Soviet Union did not make war against their own people, and that order 227 was necessary (because it was a desperate situation, and the nation was faced with extermination).

He also points out some other things that are blatantly incorrect in the game, for example that it never snows in October. If relic can't get such basic things right, how can they claim they did any research?

But ignoring TheBadComedians stupid comments, the in game footage alone is unbearably stupid and painful, even if you're not Russian. It looks like the game is nothing but a huge sensationalist piece of shit, taking every known fact, rumour and lie about the Red Army and blowing it up to ridiculous proportions.

 

[Burning Bridges]

And people mentioning The Russian Winter are right too. So, let's remove this out of equation.

I believe it was less the Russian Winter, but more Hitler's stupidity.

The attack on Moscow was a huge strategic misconception. After delaying and diverting forces for Kiev, Army Group Center was not ready for another offensive in 1941. It's rather surprising that by sheer improvisation they still managed to get to Moscow. The Russians already had more men, more tanks, even better tanks. Hitler should have listened to his Generals and prepared a defensive. That would have also given the Germans time to assess the strategic situation. As it happened, Hitler clinged to his early victories, and stumbled from one mistake into the next (Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk).

It seems to be true that the winters of 41 and 42 were unusually harsh. But it was not the cold that slowed down the Wehrmacht in '41, it was the mud that preceded it. When it froze over, they were moving forward again. That Russians Winters are cold is hardly new. It just takes time to get accustomed to. But you can make successful offensives, as the Russians demonstrated. Not with unprepared, weakened and demoralized troops however. In Napoleons campaign a whole division of fresh troops from France froze to death in 1 week. That was in Lituania, not in Russia.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Of course the video is shit, once he begins to belittle "Red Army committed crimes, but so did every army", or calling WW2 veterans "pussies". His comment on shooting a German soldier was also a bit stupid, but excusable if one remembers 30 million dead russians. But the main point (about CoH2) is that the actions shown in the game are "illogical", that the Soviet Union did not make war against their own people, and that order 227 was necessary (because it was a desperate situation, and the nation was faced with extermination).

The main thing that he doesn't get is that the main reason why Red Army took such horrific losses was that the army was badly trained, badly organized and badly commanded, not because they were desperate. And the main reason why it was badly organized and badly commanded was the Soviet mentality and the decimation of the Russian intelligentsia during the Bolshevik rule.

The attack on Moscow was a huge strategic misconception. After delaying and diverting forces for Kiev, Army Group Center was not ready for another offensive in 1941. It's rather surprising that by sheer improvisation they still managed to get to Moscow. The Russians already had more men, more tanks, even better tanks.

Better mobile bunkers, not better tanks. T-34 was non-functional since it had a horrible gearbox, horrible observation abilities and horrible internal communication. KV was tended to break down a lot because of bad suspension.
Russian tactics were horrible. Attacking without doing proper recon and doing massive tank charges with large unit commanders charging in and fighting instead of commanding.
Communication was very bad with whole corps and divisions acting on outdated orders and the high command thinking that it can change orders every fucking minute.
And Russian tankers, soldiers and commanders were severely undereducated and undertrained.

 

[baturinsky]

And people mentioning The Russian Winter are right too. So, let's remove this out of equation.

I believe it was less the Russian Winter, but more Hitler's stupidity.

Hitler was a nazi, so his perception of Russians was roughly same as Relic's. No wonder he underestimated his enemies.

Effect of winter colds were indeed much less than some imagine, but real, and multifold.

 

[Hamster]

Maybe better not do it? One thing, mock that game and scare publisher about potential market losses, the other thing is welcoming government into regulation of game industry. Especially russian government. I am pretty sure, that results will be very idiotic and shameful. Also russian government not so long ago put 40m$ into film, that makes CoH2 very adequate and truthful representation of WW2, so I don't know, how would they explain difference between them.

The difference is very easy to explain, the director was given complete freedom to do whatever he wants, exactly because it was assumed that if government interferes results will be "idiotic and shameful". In practice it turned out to be the other way around.

 

[Hamster]

I made this table for combat losses (no pows included) a few years ago during similiar discussion on codex, unfortunately i don't remember the source, but you can see that total numbers are generally consistent with mainstream estimates provided on eastern front wiki page:

USSR vs Axis

1941:
802,191 vs 307,553 = 2,61 : 1
1942:
1,742,955 vs 537,922 = 3,24 : 1
1943:
1,944,653 vs 792,764 = 2,45 : 1
1944:
1,596,328 vs 1,507,623 = 1,05 : 1
1945:
732,108 vs 1,230,045 = 1 : 1,68
Total: 6818235 vs 4375907 = 1,56 : 1

Hamster I made my own estimation from various sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II

Total operational losses (including KIA, MIA, POW)

Soviet Union

Krivosheev: 11,4m
Mikhalev: 12,5m
Zemskov: 11,5m
Il’enkov: 14,2m
Iglev: 20,58m ?

Germany (Eastern Front)

(before Jan 31 '45)
official OKW 2,1m
official Soviet 3,8m
R.Overmans 2,7m

(after Jan 31 '45)
official OKW unknown/incomplete
official Soviet 1,2m
R.Overmans (for all fronts): 1,2m

Ignoring Iglev's doubtful figure of 20 million, an estimation of the total operational losses (including POWS, and irrespective of POW death) would be:

Red Army 11 - 14m
Wehrmacht: 3 - 5m

Of course it's possible to make totals that subtract POWs (Soviet 5,7m Germany 2,8 million), but I don't see the point.

Ah... seems to be a mistake there, your german numbers don't include living POWS held, it's KIA,MIA+died in captivity numbers.

 

[Sam Ecorners]

This was a great thread and then DU showed up and masterfully trolled all of the ruskies. FLAWLESS VICTORY, DU

 

[Hamster]

I watched the video by TheBadComedian, he makes some good points (but also some crap). The footage from the game speaks for itself.
He nailed it with "the plot campaign and video sequences show us that the war is not with the Reich - the war is with the Soviet Union".

His video is pretty shit, yes, but the idea to start this campaing is pure genius.

Of course the video is shit, once he begins to belittle "Red Army committed crimes, but so did every army", or calling WW2 veterans "pussies". His comment on shooting a German soldier was also a bit stupid, but excusable if one remembers 30 million dead russians. But the main point (about CoH2) is that the actions shown in the game are "illogical", that the Soviet Union did not make war against their own people, and that order 227 was necessary (because it was a desperate situation, and the nation was faced with extermination).

I think his biggest mistake is complaining about shooting of polish partisans. That was actually only one more or less ok moment in the game, because a completely logical explanation is given for it.

 

[Hamster]

Of course the video is shit, once he begins to belittle "Red Army committed crimes, but so did every army", or calling WW2 veterans "pussies". His comment on shooting a German soldier was also a bit stupid, but excusable if one remembers 30 million dead russians. But the main point (about CoH2) is that the actions shown in the game are "illogical", that the Soviet Union did not make war against their own people, and that order 227 was necessary (because it was a desperate situation, and the nation was faced with extermination).

The main thing that he doesn't get is that the main reason why Red Army took such horrific losses was that the army was badly trained, badly organized and badly commanded, not because they were desperate. And the main reason why it was badly organized and badly commanded was the Soviet mentality and the decimation of the Russian intelligentsia during the Bolshevik rule.

The attack on Moscow was a huge strategic misconception. After delaying and diverting forces for Kiev, Army Group Center was not ready for another offensive in 1941. It's rather surprising that by sheer improvisation they still managed to get to Moscow. The Russians already had more men, more tanks, even better tanks.

Better mobile bunkers, not better tanks. T-34 was non-functional since it had a horrible gearbox, horrible observation abilities and horrible internal communication. KV was tended to break down a lot because of bad suspension.
Russian tactics were horrible. Attacking without doing proper recon and doing massive tank charges with large unit commanders charging in and fighting instead of commanding.
Communication was very bad with whole corps and divisions acting on outdated orders and the high command thinking that it can change orders every fucking minute.
And Russian tankers, soldiers and commanders were severely undereducated and undertrained.

Wow, russians are such subhumans. It must really suck for poles to live with the knowledge that they performed much worse than even such scum.

 

[Hamster]

I watched the video by TheBadComedian, he makes some good points (but also some crap). The footage from the game speaks for itself.
He nailed it with "the plot campaign and video sequences show us that the war is not with the Reich - the war is with the Soviet Union".

His video is pretty shit, yes, but the idea to start this campaing is pure genius.

The political situation in Russia now is perfect for this, with Putin making a bet on conservative electorate - we just had to signal to 1C that we intend to make them the next Pussy Riot to be sacrificed in order to gain popular support for the government.
I am sure 1C wouldn't have given a single fuck even if 100 000 gamers signed a petition, but as soon as this story started gaining notion from political websites and movements, they immediately chickend out.

Btw, turns out i may have been completely wrong. There is a rumour that the reason for suspension of sales is one of higher ups in 1C actually being extremely offended by the game. Huge incline of 1C if true.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Ah... seems to be a mistake there, your german numbers don't include living POWS held, it's KIA,MIA+died in captivity numbers.

Hamster I will go through the numbers again.

 

[Hamster]

Ah... seems to be a mistake there, your german numbers don't include living POWS held, it's KIA,MIA+died in captivity numbers.

Hamster I will go through the numbers again.

Check the eastern front page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II)

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Wow, russians are such subhumans. It must really suck for poles to live with the knowledge that they performed much worse than even such scum.

Because Poles have totally managed to waste 20000 tanks, 20000 planes and 4000000 soldiers while losing territory of size of two Polands while being attacked by a force that has 4x less tanks.
Also, the abysmal performance of Red Army has nothing to do with genetic make up of average Russian and everything to do with Bolshevism and Bolshevist crimes against the Russian people. You can't have an effective modern army in a system that treats intelligentsia as subhumans.

Also, I don't give a fuck how people who aren't me have performed in a war 74 years ago.

 

[Hamster]

Wow, russians are such subhumans. It must really suck for poles to live with the knowledge that they performed much worse than even such scum.

Because Poles have totally managed to waste 20000 tanks

Yeah, i imagine that if you fight tanks with cavalry, tanks losses on your side will be pretty minimal

It's hard to loose many tanks when you only have a dozen horses and 3 donkeys at yout disposal.

 

[Sranchammer]

Who cares? America would have whipped the Soviets, Japan, and Germany all at once within a year.

:patriot:

 

[Burning Bridges]

Ah... seems to be a mistake there, your german numbers don't include living POWS held, it's KIA,MIA+died in captivity numbers.

Hamster I will go through the numbers again.

Check the eastern front page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II)

Ok. I am a bit surprised but over the whole war, 1 : 1,3 can be accepted. But this includes the capitulation of entire Axis armies at the end, and that loss is not really "operational". A statistic per year will turn out more interesting.

Axis Total Losses East Front (Overmans)
KIA/MIA 4,428,000
POW 5,450,000
TOTAL 9,878,000

Red Army Total Losses (Erlikman)
KIA/MIA 7,051,000
POW 5,280,000
TOTAL 12,331,000

The only other source I found that deals specifically with operational losses on the East Front is

Krivosheev
Axis 8,6 million
Soviet 11,4 million

By the way, the OKW casualty number for the Eastern Front is 2,1 million (1,1 KIA/MIA 1,0 POW) until Jan 31 '45. Quite a discrepancy!!

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Yeah, i imagine that if you fight tanks with cavalry, tanks losses on your side will be pretty minimal

Generally, fighting tanks with infantry or cavalry was a pretty standard way of dealing with them before the advent of Panther and long-barelled Panzer IV. The appearance of T-34 and KV was tragedy for German infantry, because they were the ones who were driven over until the mobile bunkers got destroyed by 88s and 105s or broke down or ran out of fuel.
Obviously, Polish army was severely under-equipped when it comes to anti-tank guns and artillery in general. Germans had 2x more artillery.

How it is relevant to what Soviet Union has done with its 20000 tanks, though? I have a distinct impression that instead of a historical debate, you're imagining that you're participating in some kind of a ridiculous tribal conflict.

 

[Burning Bridges]

"Russia tank not very good"

http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.gr/2012/07/wwii-myths-t-34-best-tank-of-war.html

Basically, the many defects of the T-34 didn't matter because normally "it was destroyed before it had a chance to break down on its own".

Better mobile bunkers, not better tanks. T-34 was non-functional since it had a horrible gearbox, horrible observation abilities and horrible internal communication. KV was tended to break down a lot because of bad suspension.
Russian tactics were horrible. Attacking without doing proper recon and doing massive tank charges with large unit commanders charging in and fighting instead of commanding.
Communication was very bad with whole corps and divisions acting on outdated orders and the high command thinking that it can change orders every fucking minute.
And Russian tankers, soldiers and commanders were severely undereducated and undertrained.

Use as mobile bunkers still served a purpose, it often delayed the Germans. The tanks had endless problems, but the armor was good. How weird it must have been for the Germans, harking single T-34s or KV1s with 20mm and 37mm, which was practically blind, didn't have a radio, couldn't use its gearbox, but refused to go kaputt. Somewhere I came across a story of a whole division that was stalled almost a day by a single KV1.

http://englishrussia.com/images/ww2_color/29.jpg