Cleve Blakemore accuses the RPG Codex of bandwidth leeching

[dagorkan]

Someone should make Cleve's bunker a location in a Fallout game.

That's actually a good idea for Fan Made Fallout. Dark Underlord, I hope you're taking notes

Even better would be if Cleve could provide the floor maps of his complex and he'd have to promise not to sue.

 

[Hory]

Cleve, you are pretty open about your bunker's design and strengths. What if when the war (or whatever) is over, people come and build a mirror bunker at the end of (and sharing) your existing bunker's exit? Will you be able to break through it, or will you die imprisoned in a trap devised by your own genius?

 

[dagorkan]

Yes! That's what I would do!

Build a bunker around Cleve's bunker!!!

:idea:

What you gonna do now, Cleve? Bet you didn't think of that, huh?

 

[kingcomrade]

Cleve, you are pretty open about your bunker's design and strengths. What if when the war (or whatever) is over, people come and build a mirror bunker at the end of (and sharing) your existing bunker's exit? Will you be able to break through it, or will you die imprisoned in a trap devised by your own genius?

 

[kingcomrade]

You didn't answer my question, choadlick. Which gun?

I think in terms of "regions," not individual persons as threats. For example, a sixty meter fan-shaped swath would be a "region" that might pose a threat to me. So I would cleanse that "region" and anything that survived or got through might then perish of lead poisoning. I can't be bothered to aim at individuals, there might be a lot of them in a "region," so I'd scrub that "region" as my first line of defense. If we consider all areas around the shelter as "regions" then by covering each region with scrub ranges, you assure tactical sanctity for the entire shelter. Anybody stupid enough to surmount my standard barriers (tank traps, barbed wire) would want to perish in a "region" because the line of defense after that would become a really amazingly horrible way to shuffle off the mortal coil.

Remember, to know what I am thinking about, just ask yourself what you are thinking about, then think ahead by one million steps.

You're not much of a genius. Which gun?

 

[DefJam101]

What I would do is dig a tunnel under your bunker, starting from far enough away that it's out of your sight. Not that I would have any desire to attack you or get into your stronghold but if for some reason people were looking for a weak point that's where they should start, obviously it would take a lot of work and discipline so it's not for the average hungry scavenger. You have to be prepared to take a year to dig through to get the 50+ years worth of stores and electronic devices Cleve has you only assume are there.

8 inches beneath my soil is granite going down 18 miles.

R-R-R-RETCON!!

 

[Redeye]

Re: Cleve...

...
When you pay for his games, you pay for Hitler.

lol, more shit to argue about

 

[NiM82]

I'm curious if Cleve's bunker is certified against bunker buster weapons.

Would be a shame if after all that hard work, someone thought he was important and dropped a GBU-28 type weapon on it for shits n giggles.

 

[Jasede]

I'm sure that once the bombs have fallen and 90% of us are dying or dead someone who's really jealous of Cleve will go buy a bunker buster, get one of the last intact planes he can find, and aim it directly at his bunker.

For revenge.

 

[DefJam101]

I'm sure that once the bombs have fallen and 90% of us are dying or dead someone who's really jealous of Cleve will go buy a bunker buster, get one of the last intact planes he can find, and aim it directly at his bunker.

For revenge.

Would be funny if the nuclear war started and an ICBM malfunctioned and by chance shot a missile directly at Cleve's bunker, destroying all of his defenses that he put so much work into.

Gods would have a laugh at that one, for sure.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

So is the bunker supposed to protect against the after affects of a nuclear war because I don't think Australia would never be bombed?

 

[NiM82]

someone who's really jealous of Cleve will go buy a bunker buster, get one of the last intact planes he can find, and aim it directly at his bunker.

For revenge.

Extra points for style if they customise the bomb thus.

 

[Krancor]

So is the bunker supposed to protect against the after affects of a nuclear war because I don't think Australia would never be bombed?

Thankfully for him he seems confident he can resist the 1.3 billion chinese when they finally and inevitably come for his continent.

The picture might be the funniest thing I have ever seen.

 

[Norfleet]

If anything, your defenses sound dangerous and prone to failing in a way that kills you spectacularly. Your best defense is secrecy, and I am pretty sure that surrounding a hill with tank traps and barbed wire eliminates any chance you had of that.

Are you kidding? Over here, barbed wire and tank traps are the norm. If he were living out here, he'd fit in just fine with the rest of us. Most people are more concerned with keeping rampaging cattle and runaway tractors at bay, but eh, what stops runaway tractors works just as well against any other vehicle. A point can be made that excessively visible exterior defenses attract unnecessary attention, though. I would recommend that he design with the intent of specifically allowing an attacker to get indoors before laying on the heat. There's all sorts of fun you can have inside.

... and all of my planning hinges on any attacker being no brighter than this dude. This is approximately what I expect. I reckon people like this would not get beyond perimeter one. Since there are six rings of defense possible around the shelter, this is the kind of guy I would just expect to find dead on the perimeter while I am out trimming the hedges. My strategy assumes a native intelligence equivalent to this rocket scientist.

That's not a very sound defensive strategy. You might want to plan ahead for what you intend to do about someone a bit smarter than that.

All someone needs is a sniper rifle to train on your entrance, and you're toast, no matter what you do, if you ever plan on coming out. 200 yards of defenses is not much. At 200 yards virtually anyone with a scoped rifle can take you out, and you won't even know they are out there til you walk out for some fresh air and get some right in your brain. For someone who's a good shot, they would not even need a scope for that. If someone had a genuine sniper rifle they could take you out at 1000 yards easily.

Oh, come on. Have you been playing too much Counterstrike? What's somebody gonna do, sit there all day waiting for the off chance Cleve might come out? This issue is nothing a distactionary smoke screen cannot resolve.

Maybe you're too clever for that and instead will choose a slow creep up the ravine. This is great because it is lined with CCD cameras and at the mouth of the ravine is a small concrete cylinder poking out of the ravine wall.

Suggestion: While the surveilance equipment never hurts, you cannot seriously be suggesting that you're going to sit there all day and watch. Plus, cameras have only a limited area of visibility and it is quite likely that a determined attacker will sabotage these cameras, preventing you from seeing anything at all. You have to assume that you're going to be operating blind against any kind of serious attack.

You'll be relieved to know that we don't intend to shoot anybody from this observation point, though. It's just a remote perch where we can watch the homemade napalm cannon flood the ravine with sticky flaming fuel out to about 100 meters without any hope of cover.

Suggestion: This tactic works better indoors. It requires considerably more fuel to set fire to an area outdoors, and you won't get the fun of depleting the oxygen supply for the attacking force. Also, there's the fact that storing such equipment outside is unreliable and makes resupply a logistical nightmare under fire.

One of the greatest features of my mountain is that is it always chockablock with dead wood, so should we come under attack by a force of more than 100 people (unlikely this millennium, but still) we simply light up the entire mountain and seal the blast valve. Within a half an hour, temperatures outside climbing to 600 degrees in the resulting uncontrolled firestorm will pretty much clear the entire plain out to 4 kilometers, with the only hope of survival to immediately evacuate the area ahead of the fire.

That could make things a bit uncomfortable inside. I would also point out that A: The area is probably not as flammable as you are hoping, or else this would have already happened by accident due to lightning or your testing of the aforementioned napalm launcher (You *ARE* testing this stuff, right? How can you be sure any of it works if you never test? I hope that's not the philsophy you're applying to that game of yours!). In any event, one shot deal. It will burn out and your attackers will only have been delayed slightly.

I never said I had rotating sentry guns.

You should definitely work on correcting this deficiency. Sentry guns are a cheap and effective method of defense both indoors and out, although measures must be taken to protect against weathering in outdoor deployments. You can automate these with a simple targeting mechanism you can create from commonly available electronics. I suggest adhering to the KISS principle here: Don't go with fancy logic. Just a crude motion tracker should do the job. If it moves, shoot it until it stops. Rotation is not, strictly speaking, a necessary feature in many deployments and will add unnecessary complexity to the system. Unnecessary complexity should be avoided as it represents an additional point of failure and will increase your maintenance requirements. This is very important to keep in mind if you expect your compound to be maintainable by just you and your family: I've seen many an extravagant design simply fail in practice because the maintenance requirements are simply too onerous and the entire thing falls into utter disrepair in a year. And above all, test, test, test. Even then, expect a failure rate of at least 50% as a baseline average for any given system when it hits the fan.

See that smiley? My observer can put a bullet through those two eyes at the fenceline day or night. Is that too far out for you? Too many big words?

That'd be convenient if the post was manned 24/7. I would consider this to be an unfeasible approach. Who is this observer, anyway? You? If it's not you, who DO you have manning this post at this moment? I would imagine whoever it is is frightfully bored and not at all paying attention to what's going on out there.

 

[kris]

See that smiley? My observer can put a bullet through those two eyes at the fenceline day or night. Is that too far out for you? Too many big words?

'

who is the observer? How much staff is needed for that place? and how big is it on the inside?

So is the bunker supposed to protect against the after affects of a nuclear war because I don't think Australia would never be bombed?

What after effects?

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

If anything, your defenses sound dangerous and prone to failing in a way that kills you spectacularly. Your best defense is secrecy, and I am pretty sure that surrounding a hill with tank traps and barbed wire eliminates any chance you had of that.

Are you kidding? Over here, barbed wire and tank traps are the norm. If he were living out here, he'd fit in just fine with the rest of us. Most people are more concerned with keeping rampaging cattle and runaway tractors at bay, but eh, what stops runaway tractors works just as well against any other vehicle. A point can be made that excessively visible exterior defenses attract unnecessary attention, though. I would recommend that he design with the intent of specifically allowing an attacker to get indoors before laying on the heat. There's all sorts of fun you can have inside.

... and all of my planning hinges on any attacker being no brighter than this dude. This is approximately what I expect. I reckon people like this would not get beyond perimeter one. Since there are six rings of defense possible around the shelter, this is the kind of guy I would just expect to find dead on the perimeter while I am out trimming the hedges. My strategy assumes a native intelligence equivalent to this rocket scientist.

That's not a very sound defensive strategy. You might want to plan ahead for what you intend to do about someone a bit smarter than that.

All someone needs is a sniper rifle to train on your entrance, and you're toast, no matter what you do, if you ever plan on coming out. 200 yards of defenses is not much. At 200 yards virtually anyone with a scoped rifle can take you out, and you won't even know they are out there til you walk out for some fresh air and get some right in your brain. For someone who's a good shot, they would not even need a scope for that. If someone had a genuine sniper rifle they could take you out at 1000 yards easily.

Oh, come on. Have you been playing too much Counterstrike? What's somebody gonna do, sit there all day waiting for the off chance Cleve might come out? This issue is nothing a distactionary smoke screen cannot resolve.

Maybe you're too clever for that and instead will choose a slow creep up the ravine. This is great because it is lined with CCD cameras and at the mouth of the ravine is a small concrete cylinder poking out of the ravine wall.

Suggestion: While the surveilance equipment never hurts, you cannot seriously be suggesting that you're going to sit there all day and watch. Plus, cameras have only a limited area of visibility and it is quite likely that a determined attacker will sabotage these cameras, preventing you from seeing anything at all. You have to assume that you're going to be operating blind against any kind of serious attack.

You'll be relieved to know that we don't intend to shoot anybody from this observation point, though. It's just a remote perch where we can watch the homemade napalm cannon flood the ravine with sticky flaming fuel out to about 100 meters without any hope of cover.

Suggestion: This tactic works better indoors. It requires considerably more fuel to set fire to an area outdoors, and you won't get the fun of depleting the oxygen supply for the attacking force. Also, there's the fact that storing such equipment outside is unreliable and makes resupply a logistical nightmare under fire.

One of the greatest features of my mountain is that is it always chockablock with dead wood, so should we come under attack by a force of more than 100 people (unlikely this millennium, but still) we simply light up the entire mountain and seal the blast valve. Within a half an hour, temperatures outside climbing to 600 degrees in the resulting uncontrolled firestorm will pretty much clear the entire plain out to 4 kilometers, with the only hope of survival to immediately evacuate the area ahead of the fire.

That could make things a bit uncomfortable inside. I would also point out that A: The area is probably not as flammable as you are hoping, or else this would have already happened by accident due to lightning or your testing of the aforementioned napalm launcher (You *ARE* testing this stuff, right? How can you be sure any of it works if you never test? I hope that's not the philsophy you're applying to that game of yours!). In any event, one shot deal. It will burn out and your attackers will only have been delayed slightly.

I never said I had rotating sentry guns.

You should definitely work on correcting this deficiency. Sentry guns are a cheap and effective method of defense both indoors and out, although measures must be taken to protect against weathering in outdoor deployments. You can automate these with a simple targeting mechanism you can create from commonly available electronics. I suggest adhering to the KISS principle here: Don't go with fancy logic. Just a crude motion tracker should do the job. If it moves, shoot it until it stops. Rotation is not, strictly speaking, a necessary feature in many deployments and will add unnecessary complexity to the system. Unnecessary complexity should be avoided as it represents an additional point of failure and will increase your maintenance requirements. This is very important to keep in mind if you expect your compound to be maintainable by just you and your family: I've seen many an extravagant design simply fail in practice because the maintenance requirements are simply too onerous and the entire thing falls into utter disrepair in a year. And above all, test, test, test. Even then, expect a failure rate of at least 50% as a baseline average for any given system when it hits the fan.

See that smiley? My observer can put a bullet through those two eyes at the fenceline day or night. Is that too far out for you? Too many big words?

That'd be convenient if the post was manned 24/7. I would consider this to be an unfeasible approach. Who is this observer, anyway? You? If it's not you, who DO you have manning this post at this moment? I would imagine whoever it is is frightfully bored and not at all paying attention to what's going on out there.

I bought 24 of these geophone sensors a few years back, so far I have 8 wired up on the property.

http://www.bgmicro.com/index.asp?PageAc ... odID=10783

I currently have them on an I2C bus, I'd like to go to full optical links and solar power but have not done it yet. They currently run off a 9V battery I have to change twice a year.

They only work on creatures that have to touch the ground when they move.

 

[Norfleet]

I bought 24 of these geophone sensors a few years back, so far I have 8 wired up on the property.

http://www.bgmicro.com/index.asp?PageAc ... odID=10783

I've tried a setup like that, and it can work, but setting them outside tends not to produce useful results: Too many false-positive readouts from animal traffic. It tends to become impractical to check every single hit, as pretty much 99.9% of the time it will be a deer or maybe in your case, a kangaroo. They definitely have uses, but due to constant false-positive readings from animal traffic, aren't really well suited for constant monitoring. Definitely worth having in place if you've got blind approaches you want to cover and have come under attack, though. Due to the above reasons, they suffer from much the same deficiencies as cameras, though: They're not well suited as an intrusion detection system because of the untenability of achieving 24/7 monitoring. Computer-analyzed cameras could work, but I don't presently know of any software that can reliably distinguish an image of a human from an image of a bear or a kangaroo. Or a human disguised as a kangaroo.

They only work on creatures that have to touch the ground when they move.

Well, that should more or less cover most issues with humans, unless you come under attack by bird-men, ninjas, or military drones.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

So is the bunker supposed to protect against the after affects of a nuclear war because I don't think Australia would never be bombed?

What after effects?[/quote]


All Armageddon movies talk about solar dust winds or some shit after bombs drop maybe? Or perhaps that was just meteorites.

 

[Krancor]

Oh, come on. Have you been playing too much Counterstrike? What's somebody gonna do, sit there all day waiting for the off chance Cleve might come out? This issue is nothing a distactionary smoke screen cannot resolve.

A couple scavengers from some city come out. The first one gets fried by cleves probably imaginary napalm.

The rest are pissed. One sets up a sniper position, the rest trigger his motion sensors. Cleve pops out, and gets a bullet in the head. It doesn't require much effort at all.

I'd think having napalm, plus tons of diesel fuel stored in your bunker, than speaking of lighting the mountain on fire. Well, it doesn't take a genius to see what's wrong with that. A bomb shelter full of flammables? Something is almost bound to go wrong with all this if it really gets put to the test. Possibly sooner.

 

[Norfleet]

Something is almost bound to go wrong with all this if it really gets put to the test. Possibly sooner.

Something always goes wrong. The first casualty in war is the plan. That's why you have to design for a level of fault tolerance. Figure that 90% of everything goes wrong sooner or later and plan accordingly.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

Oh, come on. Have you been playing too much Counterstrike? What's somebody gonna do, sit there all day waiting for the off chance Cleve might come out? This issue is nothing a distactionary smoke screen cannot resolve.

They have to do their thinking out loud.

A couple scavengers from some city come out. The first one gets fried by cleves probably imaginary napalm.

Oh, it's imaginary alright.

The rest are pissed. One sets up a sniper position, the rest trigger his motion sensors. Cleve pops out, and gets a bullet in the head. It doesn't require much effort at all.

That's the first thing I'll do when one of my motion sensors is triggered, is pop my head out. Good plan. Like a Meercat, you whistle and I'll raise my head. That's brilliant. My massive fortress all to no use because I pop my head out. A thousand dollars worth of CCD cameras, periscopes and reflectors, but it turns out the only way I can get a good look out there is to "pop my head out." I put a large red crosshair painted on a sheet of plywood to help snipers get range and zero their weapon beforehand.

It's these kinds of brilliant strategists I am expecting to compose the brunt of the assault force on my position.

I'd think having napalm, plus tons of diesel fuel stored in your bunker, than speaking of lighting the mountain on fire. Well, it doesn't take a genius to see what's wrong with that. A bomb shelter full of flammables? Something is almost bound to go wrong with all this if it really gets put to the test. Possibly sooner.

Wow, you're smarter than Cleve Blakemore! I'll bet he never thought of that. Yes, I store all my fuel under the bunks in the smoking lounge, right beside the fireworks crates and waterproof matches. I thought about it and said, "Darn it, that just makes sense." Then I celebrated the installation of the tanks by running around them with a sparkler in each hand and the valves open pouring fuel onto the floor.

It's a shame that you weren't present when I was drawing up the plans, so you could have corrected me.

Here's the way it goes:

1. See motion sensor in ravine go off. Switch to CCD.

2. Open 90mm gate valve sealed in concrete. Gravity sprays napalm into ravine.

3. Press igniter button for ravine outlet. Entire ravine explodes into sticky, burning fuel dump. Everything in the ravine dies. Close valve. Back to Galaga Deluxe.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

I bought 24 of these geophone sensors a few years back, so far I have 8 wired up on the property.

http://www.bgmicro.com/index.asp?PageAc ... odID=10783

I've tried a setup like that, and it can work, but setting them outside tends not to produce useful results: Too many false-positive readouts from animal traffic. It tends to become impractical to check every single hit, as pretty much 99.9% of the time it will be a deer or maybe in your case, a kangaroo. They definitely have uses, but due to constant false-positive readings from animal traffic, aren't really well suited for constant monitoring. Definitely worth having in place if you've got blind approaches you want to cover and have come under attack, though. Due to the above reasons, they suffer from much the same deficiencies as cameras, though: They're not well suited as an intrusion detection system because of the untenability of achieving 24/7 monitoring. Computer-analyzed cameras could work, but I don't presently know of any software that can reliably distinguish an image of a human from an image of a bear or a kangaroo. Or a human disguised as a kangaroo.

Nothing larger than a chipmunk will get through the physical perimeter unless it has climbed the fence, through barbed wire, past beartraps and caltrops.

The I2C interface returns a signal as a digital byte between 0 and 127. At the lowest setting, you can tell when the wind blows the trees and strains their roots. At around 90, nothing smaller than a 100kg man will register that kind of signal. It has to be somebody walking past.

You can adjust the threshold to anything you want by testing and feedback. As a little tip, I have found the most important thing to do first when fortifying the perimeters is chuck buckets of broken glass over the whole area. The crackle and pop as people try to step over it will trigger huge, clean signals on the geosensors. This actually works quite well without the sensors, there is no super commando or robot ninja on earth who can move across a field of broken glass without making all kinds of loud, distinct noise. You can hear this sound really clearly at night on the CCD microphones, I've done some tests. There is no way to sneak up on a fortified location like mine. It's militarily impossible. Unless you have air support and armored cavalry, it's just suicidal.

Aliens with antigravity belts could get past the third perimeter line if they float a few inches off the ground.

Any man in a kangaroo suit will get exactly as far as the guy dressed as a duck. Not too far at all.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

Something is almost bound to go wrong with all this if it really gets put to the test. Possibly sooner.

Something always goes wrong. The first casualty in war is the plan. That's why you have to design for a level of fault tolerance. Figure that 90% of everything goes wrong sooner or later and plan accordingly.

... but a lot of this comes from watching war movies made after the 1960's. The impression that a well fortified fortress just becomes completely insecure instantly is the stuff of Hollywood fantasy. The insecure position is the guy topside doing the frontal assault. That's the casualties.

In real life, it's not quite as easy as Chuck Norris and Lee Marvin make it look in the films. The truth is that Chuck and Lee would get their asses waxed out at the first perimeter and we probably wouldn't even know it until somebody studied the CCD image as the sun rose and said, "Oh my gosh, it looks like we killed Chuck Norris and Lee Marvin last night. Apparently they attempted some super commando tactics with super commando moves in a super commando fashion and were killed instantly. It looks like Chuck tried to gnaw his own leg off in the beartrap before he died. A shame, I really liked him in 'Walker, Texas Ranger.' Somebody make a note to do a meathook run on that end of the property next week."

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

Yes! That's what I would do!

Build a bunker around Cleve's bunker!!!

:idea:

What you gonna do now, Cleve? Bet you didn't think of that, huh?

That's a great plan. I'll leave plenty of construction materials topside. There's no better way to work than on 800 calories a day, most of it grass and insects.

 

[NiM82]

There is no way to sneak up on a fortified location like mine. It's militarily impossible. Unless you have air support and armored cavalry, it's just suicidal.

Some generals in WW1 thought their big fortified bunkers and underground bases were impervious to attack too, but they didn't cover the ground below them. What's to stop someone tunnelling underneath your bunker and setting off a big ass explosive device?

Clearly the terrain is malleable, you managed to build a big hole. I'd imagine under wartime conditions that the Chinese would find the will to build a few big tunnels (they like tunnels). What are your defences against such an attack, get out and look for entrances?

Them cheap sensors you link to make no mention of being hardened against EMP (1 high altitude nuke can blanket a continent). Where else have you skimped?