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Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

Infinitron

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What sort of Black Isle writing conventions? I'm thinking it might have been something like having dialogue choices prefixed by [Lie], PS:T-style.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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What sort of Black Isle writing conventions? I'm thinking it might have been something like having dialogue choices prefixed by [Lie], PS:T-style.
https://x.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1815751198433018171

At BIS and Obsidian we used to have writing style guides for each project for dialogue formatting, conventions, aesthetics, etc, tailored for each project.

These documents would be anywhere from 30-100 pages of breakdowns for narrative conventions and could be as detailed as dictionaries and breakdowns for inventory items (convention for "stimpak", do you capitalize or not, etc.).

The fact that BioWare would simultaneously express contempt for applicant using those conventions and simultaneously then ask to see confidential guides to how we approach it seemed hypocritical. Shocker

It makes a lot of sense to have a guide like that; we had style guides back when I wrote for a newspaper, and in the courts for lawyerly citations. It's very odd to think of a company that relies on writing for its product turning up its nose at an applicant using a style guide.

I think the contempt was more "we don't do it the way -they- do it". Obviously, they didn't hire her, but I would hope it wasn't because the applicant was trying to use a modern RPG conventions in their submission, which would be all kinds of stupid.

I will say that this weirdness from BioWare continued when the owners of BioWare called Brian Fargo to complain about an email he wrote where one of BIS's projects was better written than BG (this was a project the BW owners had also expressed earlier contempt for).

The next fun thing is this same project they had laughed at - when they realized that the in-developement BG2 was using some of the same tropes, they called and wanted to (gulp) make sure they weren't copying it too closely. You can't make this shit up.

I had to then walk them through the basic development convention that "execution is what matters and sets things apart even if tropes are the same."

I told them it was very doubtful the executions were anywhere close. I didn't mean it meanly, but it's something that most writers are aware of. It did make me realize there was some dev fragility at BioWare, but whatever.

To their credit, without their engine, Black Isle's legacy would have been much less (no Infinity Engine games ever), so we owed them a lot, especially after Iplay kept screwing them with contracts until BioWare rightly had enough.

Also, to be fair, there were some prominent designers at Black Isle and Obsidian who literally hated BioWare games (they're still there in very high positions), so it's not like we were always saints either.

Guessing the project in question was Icewind Dale.

Also... "her"? That's peculiar, Black Isle didn't have any female writer/designers. Annie would be the first at Obsidian.

Prominent designer who hates Bioware games would be Sawyer of course. :)
 
Last edited:

Roguey

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Nah, he's talking about PS:T. Bioware's concerns about its similarities with BG2 have been mentioned in the past.
Weird how they would have contempt for a game that was taking a very different approach to what they were doing.
 

Roguey

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Avellone reveals that Owlcat got incredibly flaky with him on Wrath of the Righteous and he likely wouldn't do any contract work for them even if they asked. He also grew to loathe Golarion. :)

https://x.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1815817969295057014

Will you still work with Owlcat studio and help them with their works???

Probably not. Toward the end, there were some strange contract shifts that invalidated previous contracts, which started making me uncomfortable and there was never any clear explanation as to why, but it put the contract terms in jeopardy.

In addition, payments were often late or non-existent, and there would be times where I would have to ask them repeatedly what had happened to payments due months previous. I wish them well and hope their project succeed, but I don’t need the uncertainty.

Lastly, and this isn't necessarily something Owlcat will keep doing, but I started falling out of love of the Pathfinder setting the more I worked on it, and I don't really want to write for that world any longer. I do admire the setting's adventure focus, though.

The developers outside the bumps with the production elements were very cool, though, and I like Alexander Mishulin very much. He genuinely cares about and respects Pathfinder, and it shows.
 

ind33d

Learned
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Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,805
Avellone reveals that Owlcat got incredibly flaky with him on Wrath of the Righteous and he likely wouldn't do any contract work for them even if they asked. He also grew to loathe Golarion. :)

https://x.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1815817969295057014

Will you still work with Owlcat studio and help them with their works???

Probably not. Toward the end, there were some strange contract shifts that invalidated previous contracts, which started making me uncomfortable and there was never any clear explanation as to why, but it put the contract terms in jeopardy.

In addition, payments were often late or non-existent, and there would be times where I would have to ask them repeatedly what had happened to payments due months previous. I wish them well and hope their project succeed, but I don’t need the uncertainty.

Lastly, and this isn't necessarily something Owlcat will keep doing, but I started falling out of love of the Pathfinder setting the more I worked on it, and I don't really want to write for that world any longer. I do admire the setting's adventure focus, though.

The developers outside the bumps with the production elements were very cool, though, and I like Alexander Mishulin very much. He genuinely cares about and respects Pathfinder, and it shows.
in his defense golarion is a fucking stupid idea, it's like all the D&D planes crammed together in a roach-infested one bedroom apartment
 

Cael

Arcane
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Nov 1, 2017
Messages
22,042
Avellone reveals that Owlcat got incredibly flaky with him on Wrath of the Righteous and he likely wouldn't do any contract work for them even if they asked. He also grew to loathe Golarion. :)

https://x.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1815817969295057014

Will you still work with Owlcat studio and help them with their works???

Probably not. Toward the end, there were some strange contract shifts that invalidated previous contracts, which started making me uncomfortable and there was never any clear explanation as to why, but it put the contract terms in jeopardy.

In addition, payments were often late or non-existent, and there would be times where I would have to ask them repeatedly what had happened to payments due months previous. I wish them well and hope their project succeed, but I don’t need the uncertainty.

Lastly, and this isn't necessarily something Owlcat will keep doing, but I started falling out of love of the Pathfinder setting the more I worked on it, and I don't really want to write for that world any longer. I do admire the setting's adventure focus, though.

The developers outside the bumps with the production elements were very cool, though, and I like Alexander Mishulin very much. He genuinely cares about and respects Pathfinder, and it shows.
in his defense golarion is a fucking stupid idea, it's like all the D&D planes crammed together in a roach-infested one bedroom apartment
And throw in robots and lasers.
 

scytheavatar

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
685
Avellone reveals that Owlcat got incredibly flaky with him on Wrath of the Righteous and he likely wouldn't do any contract work for them even if they asked. He also grew to loathe Golarion. :)

https://x.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1815817969295057014

Will you still work with Owlcat studio and help them with their works???

Probably not. Toward the end, there were some strange contract shifts that invalidated previous contracts, which started making me uncomfortable and there was never any clear explanation as to why, but it put the contract terms in jeopardy.

In addition, payments were often late or non-existent, and there would be times where I would have to ask them repeatedly what had happened to payments due months previous. I wish them well and hope their project succeed, but I don’t need the uncertainty.

Lastly, and this isn't necessarily something Owlcat will keep doing, but I started falling out of love of the Pathfinder setting the more I worked on it, and I don't really want to write for that world any longer. I do admire the setting's adventure focus, though.

The developers outside the bumps with the production elements were very cool, though, and I like Alexander Mishulin very much. He genuinely cares about and respects Pathfinder, and it shows.
in his defense golarion is a fucking stupid idea, it's like all the D&D planes crammed together in a roach-infested one bedroom apartment


Basically no different from Forgotten Realms and that's the whole point.
 

Aarwolf

Learned
Joined
Dec 15, 2020
Messages
572
https://x.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1815450237961728204

Oh cool BioWare has announced the cast their fans will eventually cancel

It's funnier cos it's true:

https://x.com/linzer_art/status/1815568466306355247

Davrins VA following L*bs of Tiktok and Andrew T*ate... why must we suffer so

https://x.com/linzer_art/status/1815621317548236824

nope, i'm absolutely going to judge someone who follows bigots and transphobes!

It only took less than 24 hours to prove Chris is right :D
 

user

Savant
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
866
Guise, we have to raise awareness for this despicable company that supports the next worst thing after, I don't know, Satan maybe, and cancel their toxic game
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,805
Avellone reveals that Owlcat got incredibly flaky with him on Wrath of the Righteous and he likely wouldn't do any contract work for them even if they asked. He also grew to loathe Golarion. :)

https://x.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1815817969295057014

Will you still work with Owlcat studio and help them with their works???

Probably not. Toward the end, there were some strange contract shifts that invalidated previous contracts, which started making me uncomfortable and there was never any clear explanation as to why, but it put the contract terms in jeopardy.

In addition, payments were often late or non-existent, and there would be times where I would have to ask them repeatedly what had happened to payments due months previous. I wish them well and hope their project succeed, but I don’t need the uncertainty.

Lastly, and this isn't necessarily something Owlcat will keep doing, but I started falling out of love of the Pathfinder setting the more I worked on it, and I don't really want to write for that world any longer. I do admire the setting's adventure focus, though.

The developers outside the bumps with the production elements were very cool, though, and I like Alexander Mishulin very much. He genuinely cares about and respects Pathfinder, and it shows.
in his defense golarion is a fucking stupid idea, it's like all the D&D planes crammed together in a roach-infested one bedroom apartment


Basically no different from Forgotten Realms and that's the whole point.
3.5 era FR was played completely straight. Golarion is like a Seinfeld joke that just won't end
 

MjKorz

Educated
Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
530
Golarion is good, if you want to do some politically-themed roleplaying. Political rivalries and machinations between the setting's various nations and city states are far more well developed compared to Faerun.
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
Developer
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
7,790
Golarion is good, if you want to do some politically-themed roleplaying. Political rivalries and machinations between the setting's various nations and city states are far more well developed compared to Faerun.

TBF, there's children's TV shows better developed than Faerun.
 

Barbarian

Arcane
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
8,113
Wait, did Avellone write for Wotr? What exactly? I remember he did Nok-Nok and his character quest in Kingmaker, thought that was all.
 

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