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Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

Bonerbill

Augur
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
302
Location
North Carolina
A bit sad that he had to write many of the companions for NWN2's OC. I would be embrassased too if I had to write characters like Qara, Bishop, and Elanee.

On the other hand, I bet he felt redeemed when he wrote Kaelyn and Gann. Those are definitely some of his best character that don't tread into the super "weird" category. People seem to think he can only characters strange like Grieving Mother or Kreia, but if you look a characters like Myron and Cassidy for example, he definitely capable of creating good "normal" characters.
 
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Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
That's probably because of Tony Evans, really. I mean...
Area Design, Writing, System Design and Cinematics: Dragon Age 2
speaks volumes.

Not really. By the same standards you could point out that he also worked on KOTOR II and MOTB.
Might be a little unfair, but Area Design, Writing and System Design in DAII are so notoriously bad it's impossible to ignore that in his record. It's not like I'm bashing SoZ either, but it's no MotB.

Tony Evans actually gave a bit of insight what happened there. It was on formspring.

BTW. He's far more Avellone/George Ziets clique than Sawyers.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
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Guise, I scooped all of you on this back in 2010 http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...estgate-an-adventure-pack.53582/#post-1458416

Turns out Urquhart was telling the truth. What's odd is that Josh later on said that the people responsible for writing Elanee and Grobnar moved to Bioware http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...to-the-new-thread.75947/page-642#post-2620578 http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...to-the-new-thread.75947/page-965#post-2984485

So I guess that the real answer is, much like PoE, other writers inherited his characters.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
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Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
So Sawyer said the complete opposite. 3 possibilities here:

I) PoE treatment: MCA wrote the initial version for all of them, 3/4 were cut and other people wrote the versions that made it to the game. In this case, it'd have to be almost a 99% overhaul, because some of the companions core concepts and ideas are so unlike MCA I really doubt he came up with them. His comment about it "breaking him" suggest it wasn't the case, if you ask me.
II) Sand by Fenstermaker, Elanee by Baudoin and Grobnar (possibly Zhjaeve) by Evans may have got the PoE treatment. Rest may have been MCA?
III) MCA wrote the basic outline for all companions, these people wrote all the rest and MCA did the final versions for most of them, but not all.

Anyway, these are some very odd things for him not to remember as project director. He's also said several "and other things I don't remember" about FNV writers over the years as well. Not a very good memory, I guess.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
It does make sense that others "finished" them, Chris has shown that he knows what a coherent character is, what a "logical progression of events" is and what to do with them. It's pretty funny how some guys went to work for Bioware, they really know talent when they see it. :p
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,957
Chris has shown that he knows what a coherent character is, what a "logical progression of events" is and what to do with them.
Amazing that this is considered special, but in this medium it truly is.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
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Remember when kotor2 had an incoherent ending because Avellone tried to deliver a sequel that had as much content as the first. :)
 

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395

Easier answer

- Sawyer says the designers who DEVELOPED these charachters went to Bioware. They did. Chris Avellone had NOTHING (or not much) to do with the initial concept of NWN2. He came in on the project, got 9 pre-made charachters shoved on him and had to write them all.

Thats why it broke him. Its an immense amount of grunt work on charachters he didn't create and he didn't have time to do well. Again he half-assed them, not because he wanted to, but because he didn't have a choice.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
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Messages
3,518
That makes sense. I guess it was more like FNV companions, where the basic plot points and characteristics were outlined by Sawyer and then assigned to different writers, except in this case they were conceived by multiple designers.
 

Viata

Arcane
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Nov 11, 2014
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Water Play Catarinense
That sounds like "Avellone did nothing wrong, better save face him. He was forced to make those shitty characters, i-i-it was not like senpai wanted to do it!"
 
Developer
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
460
Location
Moblin Villige
First off, starting this thread was a damn nice thing to do. I would almost mistake you for Virginians with your demeanor, it is damn gentlemanly. :: Tips hat :: If I ever get to pitch in on a space game, I'll see what I can do about creating a Codex Appreciation (Space) Station. Perhaps ruled by a forum. And covered in space threads.

Second, in the interests of giving credit where credit is due - I should probably set up a webpage with links as to what I actually did on projects, as I feel like I get positive cred that's underserved as well as negative cred that should be sent my way, having some place to check the facts would probably be a good idea - I did write all the companions on NWN2 OC, and Gann and Kaelyn on Mask of the Betrayer. I also did some of the major NPCs and major events as well, including the trial sequence, for example, but I'd have to go back through a fine-tooth-comb to see which ones were actually mine. I admit there may have been instances in a specific area (for some reason, Casavir nags at me) that were done by someone else, so my memory may have missed some elements, and I apologize in advance if that's the case.

In all the instances above, none of the original concepts were mine. It doesn't matter, since execution is the thing, and that's what a writer's supposed to excel at. Your job is to take someone who dresses up as a bat and fights crime and make that shitty (imo) concept work. A more challenging one might be if one of his foes identifies with penguins, but hey, Arkham City made it work, imo (the Penguin's intro and museum collection I thought was great).

Yes, NWN2 OC had a lot of companions, and I do feel I could have done a better job with all of them from minor details to major elements (for example, Grobnar suffered the same problem as Oswald Fiddlebender in Icewind Dale - he was written to be hyperactive, but then that got lost on the way to the VO booth, and had I time to go to the studio in both instances, I could have remedied that at once, and I should have found the time to do so). Their lines are excruciatingly long to be spoken at normal speed, although I still liked Oswald's VO delivery, I believe the actor was Jack Roth.

I also didn't feel that the companions were as tied to events in the game as they should be, and I thought with George Ziets' help (as well as most of the designers on Mask), this was a big difference in Mask. I especially liked how the area designers specifically wove the companions into each area, since I felt like their arcs advanced as you advanced through the game and enjoyed Mask's simple non-linearity as well, which I don't think was a resource drain, but Kevin Saunders and George could probably give a better answer.

After NWN2 OC, I did harsher reviews of CNPC concepts before agreeing to them. In some instances, I felt good about the creative direction (Gann, Kaelyn, Cass - and this includes the Gann romance arc, too), other times I suggested new CNPC concepts or tweaks if I felt I could do a better job in tone or more importantly, might fit better with the world's themes (Hollowborn, Godhammer background) or the basic mechanics of the world. For example, Ulysses in the FNV core game was intended to give someone with Legion rep a CNPC who would stand by them, and also give insight into the Legion as well. I would have preferred that Vulpes be that guy, actually. And that you could have recruited Sunny, Yes Man, and Benny as possibilities instead of the core CNPCs as well - there's ways that seemingly crit path characters like this can still become part of your journey in interesting ways that doesn't damage their roles as CNPCs.

Writing a companion basically means you're married to that character for 4 to 8 weeks of 6-7 days of work, so you'd better damn well like it from the outset. I freely admit I don't do well when it comes to traditional fantasy characters, especially if there's a ton of them. The last character concept I agreed to inherit was Cass, because I knew she'd be fun to write and I felt I could do a good job with her tone and outlook.

Lastly, Tony Evans is a great guy and a great designer. I like the way he writes, and I meant it when I said I'd grab him for a new Torment game (Numenera). He also has one of the best work ethics and dedication I've seen in a designer - among many positive qualities, he's clear and responsible about fixing bugs (he rose up from QA and I think that's important b/c you understand how things are in the trenches), and I'll never forget the tremendous amount of work hours he put into KOTORII (unasked) even though his wife was pregnant at the time. I have nothing but respect for Tony, and I like working with him, he's good people and a great designer.

Forgive the rambling and any typos in this post, the coffee's hitting.
 

Athelas

Arcane
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jesus-christ.jpg
 

Fairfax

Arcane
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Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
:drink:
- I should probably set up a webpage with links as to what I actually did on projects, as I feel like I get positive cred that's underserved as well as negative cred that should be sent my way, having some place to check the facts would probably be a good idea -
That would be great.
(also stop by more often)
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
I prostrate myself before the Lord
:shredder:
 

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