Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[Roguey]

Tim says that GURPS is better suited for computers than D&D. Curious then that there are 0 GURPS/GURPS-knock-off crpgs and Fallout's SPECIAL was made more like D&D.

He mentioned there was a problem where if you didn't put points into health you would just die in the late-game. As much as people bemoan hp bloat in RPGs, the reception to high-lethality in RPGs is even more negative.

"We're not implementing blindness unless we can turn off the screen." Eh, that's daft because blindness is in fact a status effect in Fallout https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Blind Just cap your perception to 1 or 0, no problem.

Someone shilling Colony Ship in the comments was pretty funny.

 

[White Grey]

Finally some quality videos with insight into design! The man's a legend, but he sure does love to gossip/preach/whine. The anecdote regarding disposal of the corpse of GURPS Fallout was amusing, anyway.

 

[NecroLord]

Tim says that GURPS is better suited for computers than D&D. Curious then that there are 0 GURPS/GURPS-knock-off crpgs and Fallout's SPECIAL was made more like D&D.

He mentioned there was a problem where if you didn't put points into health you would just die in the late-game. As much as people bemoan hp bloat in RPGs, the reception to high-lethality in RPGs is even more negative.

"We're not implementing blindness unless we can turn off the screen." Eh, that's daft because blindness is in fact a status effect in Fallout https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Blind Just cap your perception to 1 or 0, no problem.

Someone shilling Colony Ship in the comments was pretty funny.

How is high lethality a problem?

 

[Roguey]

How is high lethality a problem?

1-2 hits and you're dead is frustrating.

 

[Frozen]

He should expose incompetent project managers of today where it takes 10y to finish a game.

But he won't go after his faggot friends.

 

[NecroLord]

How is high lethality a problem?

1-2 hits and you're dead is frustrating.

Doesn't have to be so.
Just add dismemberment and penalties for losing limbs.
Heavy bleeding that negatively affects your ability to take effective actions in a combat round.
And so on...

 

[Roguey]

Doesn't have to be so.
Just add dismemberment and penalties for losing limbs.
Heavy bleeding that negatively affects your ability to take effective actions in a combat round.
And so on...

That doesn't make things any easier.

 

[NecroLord]

Doesn't have to be so.
Just add dismemberment and penalties for losing limbs.
Heavy bleeding that negatively affects your ability to take effective actions in a combat round.
And so on...

That doesn't make things any easier.

You just have to strike a balance, I think.
I don't really like enemies having 250000000+ HP, jrpg style...
There is such a thing as HP bloat.

 

[Roguey]

Localization questions



Shout out to Poland near the end.

The Fallouts were included free with the purchase of a magazine, that was a big contribution to why they're so popular there.

 

[Infinitron]

I give another update to my toy space game, brought to you by Insomnia!

 

[Melcar]

Didn't Fallout start as GURPS and then the switched because it was too complex for what they wanted to do (and taking too long to implement).

 

[S.torch]

Didn't Fallout start as GURPS and then the switched because it was too complex for what they wanted to do (and taking too long to implement).

I think it was because they didn't get the license.

 

[Roguey]

Didn't Fallout start as GURPS and then the switched because it was too complex for what they wanted to do (and taking too long to implement).

I think it was because they didn't get the license.

Despite claiming he was totally fine with violence, Steve Jackson balked at it when he saw the finished product and demanded changes. Interplay told him to pound sand.

 

[S.torch]

lol

 

[scytheavatar]

Didn't Fallout start as GURPS and then the switched because it was too complex for what they wanted to do (and taking too long to implement).

https://www.polygon.com/gaming/2012/3/8/2855595/fallout-gdc-black-isle-interplay-obsidian-bethesda

The final and perhaps most critical assault on Fallout came directly from Cain’s original partner on the game system: Steve Jackson Games, creator of the GURPS role-playing system. Cain said that SJG couldn’t et behind the ultra-violence and dark humor of Fallout and pulled out at almost the last minute.
Although Cain says the conversations with SJG and Interplay were “above his pay grade,” the task of working around the sudden absence of GURPS fell squarely on his and Chris Taylor’s laps.

Basically those who thought WOTC is difficult to work with have no idea how much worse clowns like Steve Jackson can be. He is known to tank licenses because of petty nonsense.

 

[Roguey]

Putting the two stories side-by-side for posterity.

Here's Scott Campbell's perspective:
http://web.archive.org/web/20120507201229/http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=60786

When Interplay approached Steve Jackson Games for GURPS, they were extremely skeptical. They were told of the long line of great RPGs that Interplay had made. No response. They were told that they would have creative control over the game. Still no response. Then they were told the up-front license money they would be getting. Suddenly, there was a response.

With GURPS given a green light, Tim assembled a team, and (because SimEarth was just canned) chose me as the Lead Designer. It was a bit of a rocky start, as much finagling was needed to secure people for the team from other projects.

Once the contract was signed, Steve Jackson came to the studios for a meet and greet with the team. I remember him being extremely cool with our overall ideas about handling the game. One pointed question was, “What do you think about blood and violence in the game?” With a smirk and a wave of his hand, he answered, “The more the better!”

Words that would eventually come to haunt us.

http://web.archive.org/web/20120507195527/http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=60790

So, Leonard and Jason had just completed the opening movie for the game. It was a slow pan-out from an old 50's style black and white television showing quick documentary style scenes that silently gave the player an idea of the dystopian future they were about to step into. In one of these quick scenes, two soldiers in power-armor shoot a kneeling and unarmed man in the back of the head, and then gleefully wave to the camera. It was a tiny scene, but one that let you know that you were about to play a violent game. We all liked the movie and, just to keep Steve Jackson Games in the loop, a copy was sent to them.

And then it happened. The response came back “Unapproved”. The reason? They stated that “The movie was too violent”.

Whaaaaa? Too Violent!? Haven't they been looking at the game we'd been making!? There was blood and violence all over the place! We had Head Of Gore Technology™! You could split people in two with a chainsaw for chrissake!

Apparently they hadn't been looking at the game we'd been making. All of that “The more violence the better” stuff was long forgotten. With that rejection it became apparent the game would need dramatic changes to get approval from our IP holder.

A decision had to be made: Keep GURPS, abandoning our creative freedom and yielding to the mercurial whims of the licensor – or throw out all of the mechanics and interface we made functional in the game and start over.

And thus, the SPECIAL System was born, and both problems, IP rights and overly complex game system, were removed in one stroke.

Steve Jackson's perspective:
https://www.sjgames.com/ill/1997/ill-jan97.html

January 13, 1997
GURPS Fallout Progress Report
Interplay's GURPS Fallout computer game is rolling along - it's scheduled for an April release. Here's an article about it, and an interview with Tim Cain, the producer.

SJ Games has an alpha version in house for evaluation - we'll tell you more soon.

https://www.sjgames.com/ill/1997/ill-feb97.html

February 12, 1997
Rumor Control about Interplay
Executive Summary: We wish we knew.

I had problems with a couple of features of the otherwise very impressive alpha version of GURPS Fallout. As I corresponded with Interplay staff about this, I got handed up the ladder but their responses remained puzzling -- and that is the most detail I'm going to give for now.

Just before leaving for Europe last week, I got a call from a reporter asking me to comment on the Interplay decision to drop GURPS. I told him this was the first I'd heard of it. Calling Interplay, and talking with the last man I'd corresponded with, I got first "We haven't decided that, where'd you hear it?," then "Well, we have been talking about it and somebody must have gotten the idea it was decided," and finally "Yes, we have decided to drop it, so sorry."

The statement on the Interplay web site, to the effect that this was a mutual decision of SJ Games and Interplay, is not true. Scott Haring tells me that no written correspondence from Interplay has YET been received at our office. We are not clear what their proposal to finish and release the game without the license entails, for us or for the game, and have absolutely not agreed to it.

I can't imagine how Interplay could take three years working on a GURPS. computer game, and then be able to create and install a completely dissimilar game engine in a few months. Nor have I read (or heard) any explanation of how they might plan to do that. So "no comment" on that for now, too.

I've been invited to meet with Brian Fargo, who I understand owns Interplay, when I'm in LA in a few days. I'll be very interested to see what he has to say. I hope we will be able to announce that this was a tempest in a teacup.

February 19, 1997
Steve's Back
Whoa, what a trip. And what a stack of e-mail to read last night.

Things seem to have gone very smoothly while I was away. I'm grateful to Scott, Kelly and the whole crew for making that happen.

OrcCon was great. Those of you who live in the Bay area should really check out this con and its sister events. It wasn't just a card game show -- as a matter of fact, the boardgame auction was far bigger and hotter than the card game auction.

Yes, I visited Interplay while I was on the West Coast. Marathon six-hour negotiating session with the programmer who is now in charge of the FALLOUT project. Clearly all the original problems could be resolved; I made a lot of concessions because I want to save the project. The GURPS implementation they've created is *worth* saving. But their decision won't be made by the programmers. All I can say is "wait and see."

https://www.sjgames.com/ill/1997/ill-mar97.html

March 14, 1997
Interplay Update
I just got a phone call from my contact at Interplay, telling me that they were indeed dropping the GURPS system from the project which has been going forward as GURPS Fallout since 1994. Sigh.

The stated reason was that they were "too far along" with the process of deGURPSizing the game. I asked if I could get any of this in writing. He laughed. But he said he'd talk with others there and "see" if he could send me a letter.

He also stated that Interplay was still interested in starting a new game using the GURPS system, and I replied that I would look at a proposal. But the saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" comes to mind.

I'll be at the Computer Game Developers Conference this April, and it looks like I'll have a lot to talk about with the companies represented there.

Poor communication on both sides, but sloppy Steve should have presented a list of Do Nots from the start instead of playing the incredibly wasteful "you spend a lot of time and money making finished content and I'll let you know if I approve of it" game. The lousy "that's not how I feel today" style of management.

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about how having voice over in my games has frustrated me over the years.

 

[Redshirt #42]

Goes straight into my collection of angry Tims

 

[Roguey]

Understanding other points of view, wherein Tim gets a bit political

I've had people of color think I'm being racist, I've had women think I'm being sexist

Based Tim...?

Definitely based:

I worked with someone once who had what I call a completely irrational hatred of college. She hated college, she thought college graduates were idiots, she thought college degrees were worthless, she couldn't even acknowledge that college was worthwhile for some people.

Who is this woman, she sounds agreeable to me.

Tim's friends also flipped out on him when it looked like he was supporting Rowling's pov for just asking questions.

I was trying to understand why a famous writer suddenly was having trouble with certain people and certain bathrooms, and just by trying to understand where her argument came from, I was accused by multiple people that I know well of supporting her.

His ultimate conclusion was that there shouldn't be laws enforced just to make people more comfortable. However I would say this isn't an issue of comfort, but of safety. Here are the facts:
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

This Swedish cohort study by Dhejne et al. (2011) followed a population of individuals who
had undergone surgical and legal sex reassignment involving hormonal and surgical
treatment between 1973 and 2003 (324 in total) and compared them to a matched control
group of their birth sex. It is crucial to emphasise that this study looks only at those who
have undergone hormonal and surgical transition, which is a much tighter group than
individuals who self- identify as transgender.

The primary purpose of the study was to consider whether medical transition helps
patients (leads to better social and health outcomes) and to inform what support they
might need post transition. It is methodologically robust, peer reviewed, large scale
comparative source on offending rates comparing transwomen and women. It compared
the likelihood of a person having one or more criminal convictions, and convictions for
violent crime (defined as “homicide and attempted homicide, aggravated assault and
assault, robbery, threatening behaviour, harassment, arson, or any sexual offense”).

The study can be divided into two cohorts 1973-1988 and 1989-2003 with the difference
being that the latter cohort received adequate mental health provision. The findings show
that transsexual individuals were more likely to be criminal than non-transsexuals of the
same birth sex in the first cohort (1973-1988), and no different from their birth sex in the
second group (1989-2003).

The researchers state:
‘male-to-females . . . retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was
true regarding violent crime.’

MtF transitioners were over 6 times more likely to be convicted of an offence than female
comparators and 18 times more likely to be convicted of a violent offence. The group had
no statistically significant differences from other natal males, for convictions in general or
for violent offending. The group examined were those who committed to surgery, and so
were more tightly defined than a population based solely on self-declaration.

The study provides strong evidence that policy makers cannot safely assume (a)
that transwomen’s offending patterns, including violent offending, will be
significantly different than those of the general male population or (b) that they will
be similar to those of the general female population.

Has it been discredited?
Some on-line discussion of this piece describe its findings on offending as discredited.1 Policy
analysts Murray Blackburn MacKenzie conducted a search of the academic literature and were
unable to find any academic rebuttal of these specific findings, or any equivalent study which
shows the opposite effect to Dhejne et al’s result.

Allowing biological males into what were biological female-only spaces puts women at higher risk of being victimized. Is that an acceptable trade-off for transwomen, a really small segment of the population, to be made more comfortable?

His solution to the problem was just to have single-room unisex restrooms which is uh... have you seen how long the lines can get with women's restrooms? Have you seen or read stories about the inside of women's restrooms? Both get pretty bad.

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about my memoirs some more, mostly about what I learned by writing them, having people read them, and the feedback I received from them and from this channel.

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about the process for determining a game's minimum (and recommended) specification, as well as its rating.

 

[Infinitron]

OK, one last toy update, showing everything I have done with my space game to date.

 

[rojay]

That game looks like something I would have played in 1979, but good on him for making it and Jesus I hope I am as enthusiastic about my hobbies when I am his age. How old is he again?

 

[Late Bloomer]

That game looks like something I would have played in 1979, but good on him for making it and Jesus I hope I am as enthusiastic about my hobbies when I am his age. How old is he again?

He is 59. You are getting close

 

[mindx2]

Understanding other points of view, wherein Tim gets a bit political

I wish I had known Tim better all those years ago when I interviewed the Obsidian devs as I would have wanted to have a much longer talk with him*. Yes, he's much more liberal than I am but...I like him more and more based on many of his videos like this one**. He reminds me of friends I've had and friends I still have as well as professors from back in my college days (late 80s-early 90s). I remember some of my favorite professors being very liberal in their thinking***. In classes with both professors we would debate constantly to the point where the other students told us they just sat back and listen to us makes points and counter-points. There was no animosity from either professor nor from the liberal friends today. In fact, I would end up hang around some of these professors after class on a balcony outside their offices to talk about many different concepts and topics. I respected them but didn't often agree with them and we would go on for hours stating our positions while still trying to understand the other's. I ended up with As in both classes. I still hung out with one after that class was finished and he would go on to create a research "class" several years later just for me that helped me graduate when I needed only a couple of credits. There was no class being offered at the time that I needed.
Tim comes across as a small "l" liberal like those people in my life in the past and today rather than today's large "L" liberal. One you can actually have a conversation with instead of a shouting match. I despise echo chambers on the Left or Right so I understand his thoughts from this video. Sadly in the world of social media this has been lost****...


* Also, Avellone knowing now all the drama going on behind the scenes!
** Like the one where he talks about today's generation's (lack of a) work ethic.
*** I'm talking an Environmental Politcs and a Women & Politics class!!
**** Have you seen the Politics, God & the Wealth of Nations thread?!!!