C&C in Baldur's Gate 1

[Xor]

That's not C&C.

That is sidequests. Very good and fun ones, but there really isn't any meaningful C&C in BG1.

You can

Spoiler

choose to kill that one group of adventurers toward the end of the game in Candlekeep, or Sarevok will come do it himself and frame you.

That doesn't really have any effect on the game, but at least you get the option...

That's pretty much the only instance I can think of.


Also how the hell do you do spoiler tags on this board?
Nevermind, figured it out.

 

[Rosh]

"There is more, but I've generally shunted memories of both titles from my mind in favor of the far superior Planescape: Torment and to hold onto better memories of Gold Box offering far better strategy fare, even better AI. Nothing like watching in amazement as an AI "hiccup" (as BioWare excused it) causes your mage, when you click on the fireball spell and target an enemy in range, to walk up to point-blank range and jihad himself along with the kobold pack."

That was the beauty of BG. Spellcasters weren't just portable nuke launchers and you had to use spells from ALL schools(even divination egad).

The beauty of ranged targeted spells and the sloppy AI causing a mage to wander up to their target to point-blank an area of effect spell (like the clouds, etc.) when you select the spell, target the enemy within range, and then unpause the game, is that many other spells are available to be picked from?

That logic is almost as special as Volourn. Considering the game was originally designed to be an RTS, it doesn't do RTS half as well as it pretends to do CRPG. I'd say the only reason why BG was liked so much was because it really was a little better than the shitfest later SSI games turned into.

Compared to Fallout or PS:T, it blows as a CRPG.
Compared to a real RTS, it's amateurish and sloppy, with some of the worst AI I've ever seen. The pathfinding was a real joke.

"Nothing like watching in amazement as an AI "hiccup" (as BioWare excused it) causes your mage, when you click on the fireball spell and target an enemy in range, to walk up to point-blank range and jihad himself along with the kobold pack.""

Only if you a retard who cna't handle the simplist of things. Moron.

Volourn, at some times you can be a little relevant, but now you're just smoking BioWare's asscrack with that comment. When you select a spell and choose for them to cast it at a target, then unpause the game and watch as they flounder around as the epitome of BioWare apologists, including closing into melee range to cast a fireball, it's like watching you attempting to have a point. The problem with that is, we KNOW you're meant to be a dumbfuck, but giving direct orders to a character shouldn't result in them doing stupid shit due to the AI (even when I ALWAYS have the AI turned off, there's some component that causes problems, such as pathfinding and the occasional "AI hiccup" as BioWare admitted years back). That is, unless you count constantly smacking on the space bar like a crack rat every second to constantly re-adjust the antics of six retards as you give them direct orders and the Inbred Engine's shitty AI fucks it all up.

But hey, I can understand your kindred feelings with the broken AI. It's like a family reunion.

 

[Melcar]

The reason BG was as popular as it was, was because it brought dungeon crawler type gameplay to the unwashed masses and made it more accessible. Since the aim of the game was to be mainstream, all the elements that went into it were seriously dumbed down. The game itself is indeed a failure when you compare it to other "real" crpgs of the time, but it was the combination of RTS and RPG elements that made it great for the masses. I think of games like BG as if they were the Bards of crpgs; they can appeal to a lot of people, but suck in nearly every individual aspect.

 

[Konjad]

The reason BG was as popular as it was, was because it brought dungeon crawler type gameplay to the unwashed masses and made it more accessible. Since the aim of the game was to be mainstream, all the elements that went into it were seriously dumbed down. The game itself is indeed a failure when you compare it to other "real" crpgs of the time, but it was the combination of RTS and RPG elements that made it great for the masses. I think of games like BG as if they were the Bards of crpgs; they can appeal to a lot of people, but suck in nearly every individual aspect.

I guess that's why Baldur's Gate was my first RPG game But, hey, I've been 9 years old then, thanks to that game I love RPGs like PST, Witcher or Fallout too.

Now I see the truth. I guess dumbfucked games even like Oblivion are needed. In future people who play Oblivion today will play real cRPGs - at least when they grow up. Or I just want to believe it is like that.

 

[Rosh]

I guess that's why Baldur's Gate was my first RPG game But, hey, I've been 9 years old then, thanks to that game I love RPGs like PST, Witcher or Fallout too.

Now I see the truth. I guess dumbfucked games even like Oblivion are needed. In future people who play Oblivion today will play real cRPGs - at least when they grow up. Or I just want to believe it is like that.

People who are introduced to the genre by a questionable "RPG Lite" game, or even a bastardization, aren't a problem. There is really nothing wrong with liking a game because it was your cherry-popper to the genre.

It is when their ignorant selves try to tell others that it's the bestest thing evar that it becomes a problem like all the FF7 kiddies. I remember loads of stupid people who bought into the Daikatana hype that was going around for years, and who said it was a great game (though it was the first one they had ever played in that genre). Some even called it a CRPG because it had a stat system.

...

Now in regards to BioWhore and Bethesduh, they claim innovation while they are just adding shiney pikchures to the mechanics and true genre innovation they are half-assing from about 10-20 years ago.

That's not innovation, that's a rip-off. No wonder the game industry has really been going nowhere due to the obsession of the X-Box, because it's teaching all the wrong things to kids without apology or real effort of their own. My first CRPGs were Wizardry and Ultima, technically dungeon-crawler adventures due to the limitations of the machines they were coded for. Then, CRPGs became more like their PnP roots as they offered the ability of a pseudo-GM presence in the game to determine the reaction to their choices the players made (Wizardry, Ultima IV), allowing the storyline to be progressed by the player's decisions rather than just mash a button to advance the story like most JRPGs (the Shin Megami Tensei series is one of the few "truer" JRPG Wizardry clones, offering resolution depending upon the player's choices throughout the game). For a while, the genre got better and better as more imaginative people added their own efforts into the genre.

Lately, it's gone to shit with the occasional rare exception. This is pretty much the same state of the genre as in the mid-90s, when the early 90s games were starting to whore out (Might and Magic turning to RT/TB systems that didn't work well in either mode, like Arcanum), companies were dying out (like Wizardry and Ultima), or turned to utter shit (SSI).

Fallout was designed to be a throwback to the old-school days of the late 80s and early 90s (notably because it was the spiritual successor to Wasteland), and that is why it made its mark so heavily upon the genre. Baldur's Gate recovered the Dungeons and Dragons franchise from the total shit SSI and even (GASP, dare I mention it?!) Interplay/Black Isle Studios' Descent to Undermountain.

Baldur's Gate wasn't that good as people made it out to be, but it wasn't nearly as bad as most of the other shit in the industry at the time with the exception of Fallout and later Planescape: Torment. Oblivion still remains total and utter shite when true CRPG/FPS hybrids like Vampire: Bloodlines were available around the same time.

There still is no excusing the X-Box kiddies with their bright future careers in the fast food industry. I thought Usenet/message boards got stupid when FF7 was released, but there's many reasons why I sold my X-Box and will never step into X-Box Live ever again. They are the reasons why I support post-natal and post-high school abortion programs.

 

[DemonKing]

I think that BG succeeded because it managed to capture the spirit of tabletop D&D in a way that hadn't been achieved before, with top-notch production values and a relatively enjoyable storyline.

Pool of Radiance and the Gold Box games were pretty good for the time they were released, but it wasn't until BG came along that you actually felt like you were in the Forgotten Realms. I think the hand-crafted 2D Art had a lot to do with that, as well as other stuff like the variety of memorable companions and the excellent S/FX and spell animations.

There were a lot of little touches that appeal to the old school D&D fans as well, such as the implementation of classic magic items, including cursed stuff like The girdle of feminimity/masculinity and the cursed, beserking sword etc.

Sure it comes off as a bit primitive today, even in comparison to later IE games, but historically it's pretty important.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Fun, I don't think I remember a single time any of my mages suddenly charged into point-blank to cast fireball, but I guess I must have had some strange bugged version or something.

 

[The Feral Kid]

Considering the game was originally designed to be an RTS, it doesn't do RTS half as well as it pretends to do CRPG. I'd say the only reason why BG was liked so much was because it really was a little better than the shitfest later SSI games turned into.

Come on now...It must have got something right to have a series of games by Interplay that are revered here like PS:T and Icewind Dale based on its engine/combat system. Inasmuch that the demise of IE was the downfall of Interplay.

Compared to Fallout or PS:T, it blows as a CRPG.

BG is in many ways superior to PS:T.One of them - this may caome as a schock to some- is the storyline. PS:T story feels constricting, like everything in the planes is somehow connected with Nameless One's past and the game world feels smaller and contrived.

Compared to a real RTS, it's amateurish and sloppy, with some of the worst AI I've ever seen. The pathfinding was a real joke.

PS:T is even more retarded when it comes to AI/pathfinding issues. Of course I'm not complaining about that cause I like and enjoyed the game but then again maybe it's just me who's playing a game to enjoy it, not to find whatever reasons not to like it. So yeah if you want to be superficial you can find reasons like AI/pathfinding to bash in BG. Much as some who dislike SW movies because of their...acting.

 

[Volourn]

"Volourn, at some times you can be a little relevant, but now you're just smoking BioWare's asscrack with that comment. When you select a spell and choose for them to cast it at a target, then unpause the game and watch as they flounder around as the epitome of BioWare apologists, including closing into melee range to cast a fireball, it's like watching you attempting to have a point. The problem with that is, we KNOW you're meant to be a dumbfuck, but giving direct orders to a character shouldn't result in them doing stupid shit due to the AI (even when I ALWAYS have the AI turned off, there's some component that causes problems, such as pathfinding and the occasional "AI hiccup" as BioWare admitted years back). That is, unless you count constantly smacking on the space bar like a crack rat every second to constantly re-adjust the antics of six retards as you give them direct orders and the Inbred Engine's shitty AI fucks it all up."

All that bullshit just to admit you are retarded. This simply didn't happen to me or any one else with half a brain. Moron.

 

[FeelTheRads]

ZOMG, Volourn is still butthurt for being banned from NMA.

Listen, cockface, that DOES happen. Even Bioware admitted it, but then again you're better at defending them than they are.

 

[Aikanaro]

I replayed BG recently - there's about one real choice that affects things later.

Spoiler

I'm thinking the choice between merchants and druids in the Cloakwood

However, BG still a good game, even if not for the C&C. Lots of exploration and details to find, combat is interesting, story and writing are average but enjoyable. It has a certain charm to it (which, I find, the sequel utterly lacks).

 

[MaskedMan]

Well, in the expansion there's the 'choice'

Spoiler

of making a mess of the werewolf mission that leads to the consequence that all your party members turn into ferocious werewolves. And it takes a while before it hits home so I was at the top floor at the Iron Council when the change happened, I just had to run away As a mage without any companions and a total of 19 hit points (lol I suck at DnD) I was pretty fucked, it's not an ideal situation to be in at endgame....

It's not really much of a concious/obvious choice, but it's one helluva consequence.

 

[Rosh]

Fun, I don't think I remember a single time any of my mages suddenly charged into point-blank to cast fireball, but I guess I must have had some strange bugged version or something.

Lucky you. My two copies have also included NPCs that jump up and down like the retards in the Chuck E. Cheese ball pit.

BG is in many ways superior to PS:T.One of them - this may caome as a schock to some- is the storyline. PS:T story feels constricting, like everything in the planes is somehow connected with Nameless One's past and the game world feels smaller and contrived.

I'd say the fact that there's shit in replay for BG versus PS:T makes BG the more constrictive of the two. Plus if you've been around as long as Nameless One, with as many incarnations as he's gone through (two metric fucktons, judging by one pile of bodies alone), you're bound to have a very wide history of influence as a person in that condition. Just look at what the current incarnation did.

PS:T is even more retarded when it comes to AI/pathfinding issues. Of course I'm not complaining about that cause I like and enjoyed the game but then again maybe it's just me who's playing a game to enjoy it, not to find whatever reasons not to like it. So yeah if you want to be superficial you can find reasons like AI/pathfinding to bash in BG. Much as some who dislike SW movies because of their...acting.

It's superficial to dislike a poorly-implemented and yet vital aspect of an engine's construction? Especially as an RTS? I've also generally had NPCs make it fully across a PS:T map, while in BG the NPCs dry-hump the scenery until you pause the game and find where they had a mental breakdown and jammed into neutral. Their AI pulse calculations were quite flawed as they never revised to newer found paths.

But then again, I seem to get the odd copies that even BioWare admits to sneaking onto my hard drive, including fans on the original Interplay forums, and yet folks seem to get the flawless ones. Damn you, BioWare, I see your evil plan!

 

[BethesdaLove]

"Compared to Fallout or PS:T, it blows as a CRPG.
Compared to a real RTS, it's amateurish and sloppy, with some of the worst AI I've ever seen. The pathfinding was a real joke."

You compare it first to an rpg and then to an rts... Its unfair. That is firts. Second:

- dialog - pst has an advantage over bg but not f
- c&c - well...
- combat - bg is superior to f, same as pst
- ai - i would like to see an rts that has as variable ai as the scripts in bg
- pathfinding - in my personal experience, it never failed if you maxed the number of pathpoints in the options, the single issue was, that they would turn around and run back if they ran into a narrow spot into another npc
- bugs - never encountered one, one time the special replacement guy appeared, dont know why though.
- story - for me, the bg story is more engaging than f or pst. some people find it to be to melodramatic.

There are a more reasons to like BG, like music, presentation, etc...

So if you are not much into replayability, chances are, you will like it.

-edit-

Bioware C&C (but sometimes BG had some)

 

[Serious_Business]

Moron.

 

[Gosling]

I replayed BG recently - there's about one real choice that affects things later.

Spoiler

I'm thinking the choice between merchants and druids in the Cloakwood

However, BG still a good game, even if not for the C&C. Lots of exploration and details to find, combat is interesting, story and writing are average but enjoyable. It has a certain charm to it (which, I find, the sequel utterly lacks).

There's another quest that has long term consequences in the game - fishermen asking you to kill a dryad.

 

[Nedrah]

About Tutu - did they fix that bug where spawns in BG1 were totally messed up and more often than not meant that your whimpy lvl1 party got wiped on sight?

 

[Disconnected]

Well, the BG & IWD series are crawlers. Roll-playing, not role-playing. If someone goes looking for C&C in games like that, they've taken a wrong turn somewhere.

One of the best adaptations of AD&D2ed. Lots of pretties. Great atmosphere. Tonnes of fluff. And of course: tonnes of loot & monsters to kill. If those things sounds good to you, it doesn't get much better than BG1. I think there's general agreement only BG2 and IWD1 does it better, and not by much.

But those are the only reasons to play Baldur's Gate. It has no more great role-playing than it has great arcade racing. And apart from a few Volly-type fanboys, I don't think anyone ever claimed otherwise.

Personally, Baldur's Gate is one of my all-time favourite crawlers. But I like crawlers, AD&D2ed, and well-realised FR campaigns [EDIT: Just in case any devs reads this; please, no more FR for a while, OK? We've had nothing but in years & years]. By far the biggest problem the game has is lack of replay value.

The closest thing BG1 comes to C&C is that it's fairly consistent about providing at least a couple of different tools for winning the special encounters. But again, that's combat choices only, free of consequences.

About Tutu - did they fix that bug where spawns in BG1 were totally messed up and more often than not meant that your whimpy lvl1 party got wiped on sight?

Yes. Obviously level 1 parties remain fragile. It's AD&D2ed, not some Fret Not, The Nasty Evils Cannot Hurt You shit. The IE games aren't hard, they're just a bit unusual in that most encounters can/will kill you if you mindlessly click your way through them. Not that that was unusual back when they came out.

Right now, TUTU provides the expanded rules implementation of BG2, but it doesn't up the difficulty of BG1, and it includes the spell nerfs of BG2. There are mods that address both, however, and they too work just fine. Mind, the tactics mod ups the difficulty by an order of magnitude.

 

[ghostdog]

I think easyTUTU is better but I haven't messed with these things lately.

 

[Melcar]

I think easyTUTU is better but I haven't messed with these things lately.

Yeah, EasyTuTu is the best out of all of them (regular TuTu and BGT) since it's the one with less bugs and the most compatibility with other mods. It does tend to make the game easier, however, unless you bother to install some other mods to increase the difficulty (maximum HP for all in game creatures comes to mind).

 

[Volourn]

"ZOMG, Volourn is still butthurt for being banned from NMA."

L0L O RLY? Must explain why I never rejoined or the fact I rarely posted there to begin with. LMAO I just bfine Rosh an asbolute moron who simply doesn't know what he's talking about. The True Codexers like SP and VD actually have brains so crushing them is actually a worthwhile challenge.


"but then again you're better at defending them than they are."

Yeah, I defend BIO by calling KOTOR overrated, rating NWN OC 75%, and not even bothering with their silly Sonic game.

R00fles!

 

[FeelTheRads]

Must explain why I never rejoined or the fact I rarely posted there to begin with.

Dunno, don't care, but I'll take "butthurt" for 1000.

so crushing them is actually a worthwhile challenge.

You like totally crushed Roshambo with your unbeatable argument "It didn't happen to me so I doesn't happen ever."
Pretty much on par with what I've seen from you on NMA: "Bioware's games are good because I liek them!!!!"

And again, waste of oxygen, it does happen. Not only with the fireball, but with all spells. The character will simply walk to its target before casting.

 

[Volourn]

"with your unbeatable argument "It didn't happen to me so I doesn't happen ever."

Not really any different than your 'ol 'If it happens to me it must happen to everybody and if they say otherwise they must be lying'

R00fles!

 

[Rosh]

"Compared to Fallout or PS:T, it blows as a CRPG.
Compared to a real RTS, it's amateurish and sloppy, with some of the worst AI I've ever seen. The pathfinding was a real joke."

You compare it first to an rpg and then to an rts... Its unfair. That is firts.

It is unfair to consider comparing it to the standards of the genre it was originally designed for? So adding in a speech system may superficially overcome the grotesque flaws in the RTS aspect of the game?

Second:

- dialog - pst has an advantage over bg but not f

Fallout and Planescape: Torment dialog both whip the pants off of BG's.

1. Hello, give me quest.
2. Hi, assface, prepare to die.
3. Bye.

That is the general sum of the dialog found in Baldur's Gate.

Also, in Fallout, there was this neat little keyword system that allowed you to dig for more info from certain NPCs if you followed the advice from others and also went into their speech trees to ask them about subjects they should know.

Pity most didn't seem to find it.

- c&c - well...

Non-existant except for "OMG, I killeded an NPC! Everyone hates me!"

- combat - bg is superior to f, same as pst

If you like to passively watch the combat as you select what to do

Again, as noted, half the "gameplay" consists of trying to get your NPCs to do something useful according to your orders and not try to run into scenery.

- ai - i would like to see an rts that has as variable ai as the scripts in bg

The "scripts" were some of the biggest horseshit around given the inherent basic flaws of the Infinity Engine. BioWare's engine-building hasn't been that spectacular, the lag-warping pinball effect across maps in KoTOR was particularly evident of their weakness in the Odyssey engine as well.

- pathfinding - in my personal experience, it never failed if you maxed the number of pathpoints in the options, the single issue was, that they would turn around and run back if they ran into a narrow spot into another npc

And when they are behind something as well. I liked it when one NPC would jag back and forth on a wall almost as if they were walking in the hexagontal grid style of Fallout. It made me think of the old-school games where quality and depth were both an aim. (Thanks for the idea, DemonKing!)

- bugs - never encountered one, one time the special replacement guy appeared, dont know why though.

Ubiquitous Zombie. That would be the placeholder for a flaw in the rather simple NPC design. When thinking outside of the flock of sheep, I ran into him on numerous occasions.

- story - for me, the bg story is more engaging than f or pst. some people find it to be to melodramatic.

*blink* *blink*

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Oh, damn, are you serious? I grew out of stock fantasy and ubermunchkinism more than 25 years ago. The dark irony of Fallout's storyline and the really bizarre and far more interesting (to me, at least) storyline of The Nameless One and the characters that surround him. He really isn't your average walking corpse and Four Square Party.

Versus:

You are the son of a god with extra powahs!

There are a more reasons to like BG, like music, presentation, etc...

Meh. Compared to the atmospheric music in Fallout, and the numerous overused and generic orchestrated scores, it fails to have an impact upon me. The problem is that it's been overused and overrated since it was overdone in the 70's-80's adventure movies. It has been in 90% of Adventure genre games ever since.

So if you are not much into replayability, chances are, you will like it.

This really doesn't help your argument about the game much, when PS:T's storyline offered a surprising amount of replayability. After Baldur's Gate and Ass-Wind Dale, I wasn't going to have many good initial expectations about anything else made in the Infinity Engine. I was thankfully proven wrong, as Planescape: Torment was a true RTS/RPG hybrid and did both rather decently. Of all the Infinity Engine games, that was the one which offered the most amusing and diverse combat, possibly because of the unique nature of each of your companions versus an overly emo half-elf bitch and the rest of the Baldur's Gate NPCs are argument for Morphine and a semi-automatic pistol.

Have a nice round of Russian Roulette, kiddies!

Oh, pardon me a moment.

Volourn, go back to your corner. You aren't even trying anymore, and you just present yourself as a zoo monkey hurling their ass-scrapings over and over while chimping the same line post after post. At least try to fake a bit of context now and then, okay mboy? You've degenerated into quite the witless one while I was gone, which is a shame since you at least were once a bit amusing.

 

[Xor]

I shudder to think what would've happened to this thread if Mareus was still posting.

 

[Volourn]

"Volourn, go back to your corner. You aren't even trying anymore, and you just present yourself as a zoo monkey hurling their ass-scrapings over and over while chimping the same line post after post. At least try to fake a bit of context now and then, okay mboy? You've degenerated into quite the witless one while I was gone, which is a shame since you at least were once a bit amusing."

You crying again? Why do you cry? Even my 1 year old neice cries less than you.

If you ndon't like my posting style currently blame yourself as my stle is suually determined by the retardedness of who I'm replying too, and you are a foolish tool so I treat you as such. *shrug*

Enjoy FO3!