KickStarter Black Geyser: Couriers of Darkness - Tales of the Moon Cult expansion on the way

[Justinian]

If a game has serious technical issues I will leave a bad review, in the hope that the devs see and fix it. I did this after Ubisoft broke Might & Magic X, and also did this for a phone port that was feature incomplete (the free phone version had more content than the ported PC version that cost actual money). If I just don't enjoy the game I won't leave a negative review, because I don't want to stop someone who might enjoy it from playing it. Except Puzzle Kingdoms. That game was so bad I just couldn't help it because I was offended as a game designer. It's like the devs intentionally went out of their way to make a badly designed game.

 

[mediocrepoet]

EDIT: nope, Solasta isn't a small indie . Its founders are ex-Ubisoft, with major connections and etc.

Solasta devs aren't indie because some/all of them once had real jobs and some of them met people during that time. Seems legit and not at all ridiculous.

Just like: Hey, is this overwhelmingly positive reviewed game actually good or is it just that it wasn't big enough to be allowed to have negative reviews yet, so I can just relegate it to the formless slush pit of indie shit and make purchases as a form of charity or not at all?

 

[Tacgnol]

Unless a dev is total jerk and neglects support for a game, I do not bash any game with a negative review in the steam toxic community really . thats the point

So... every game should be rated positive or not at all unless the dev's an asshole? Is that about right?

Do you understand that that makes reviews pointless?

It doesnt.

I'm enjoying indies, mostly - for a good reason. I dont support Eletronic Arts by principle. I'm trying to enjoy indies - big and small indies. Before I buy an indie, I check gameplay vids, YT, and read pro-con reviews. Then I decide if I pur chase it. If I do, and I dont like it after all, I'm not going to give a negative review cause I know it well - not only from my ex - how indies are struggling nowadays with sales. Your problem is that you want a rating system that is common for small , big indies and for AAAs.

This has nothing to do with Black Geysers alone . I did the same with other titles. Same would have happend with Realms of Beyond, too bad the project died. The black geyser team clearly stated in that steam post that poor reviews impact their sales. I heard it from an internal source too. As you can see , they seem to release fixes very, very often, so Ive no intention to fck them up further

If you dont know the wording of empathy, not my problem. Men tend to have a weaker empathy than women, but not zero .

EDIT: nope, Solasta isn't a small indie . Its founders are ex-Ubisoft, with major connections and etc.

Small indie titles can be asset flips, technical messes or just plain bad. I don't see why they deserve a level of protection greater than any other title.

If people can't post steam reviews they'll just criticise it elsewhere.

No one sane throws money down for games without doing some research.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

If people can't post steam reviews they'll just criticise it elsewhere.

Or worse, leave that whole market segment.

 

[The_Mask]

If you dont know the wording of empathy, not my problem. Men tend to have a weaker empathy than women, but not zero .

Some of the best RPGs generally appreciated here have had limited budgets. So intent matters more than the end result. Most of the time. So it's not that people lack empathy, it's just the fact that we don't want that goodwill to be abused by grifters.

 

[Alienman]

It doesnt.

I'm enjoying indies, mostly - for a good reason. I dont support Eletronic Arts by principle. I'm trying to enjoy indies - big and small indies. Before I buy an indie, I check gameplay vids, YT, and read pro-con reviews. Then I decide if I pur chase it. If I do, and I dont like it after all, I'm not going to give a negative review cause I know it well - not only from my ex - how indies are struggling nowadays with sales. Your problem is that you want a rating system that is common for small , big indies and for AAAs.

This has nothing to do with Black Geysers alone . I did the same with other titles. Same would have happend with Realms of Beyond, too bad the project died. The black geyser team clearly stated in that steam post that poor reviews impact their sales. I heard it from an internal source too. As you can see , they seem to release fixes very, very often, so Ive no intention to fck them up further

If you dont know the wording of empathy, not my problem. Men tend to have a weaker empathy than women, but not zero .

EDIT: nope, Solasta isn't a small indie . Its founders are ex-Ubisoft, with major connections and etc.

Dude, if people would give good reviews to any indie because of poor devs/indie status, the market (at least on Steam) would crash. You wouldn't be able to tell a shovelware title from something genuinely good. Which in the end would kill developers making a real effort.

 

[Ladonna]

Unless a dev is total jerk and neglects support for a game, I do not bash any game with a negative review in the steam toxic community really . thats the point

So... every game should be rated positive or not at all unless the dev's an asshole? Is that about right?

Do you understand that that makes reviews pointless?

It doesnt.

I'm enjoying indies, mostly - for a good reason. I dont support Eletronic Arts by principle. I'm trying to enjoy indies - big and small indies. Before I buy an indie, I check gameplay vids, YT, and read pro-con reviews. Then I decide if I pur chase it. If I do, and I dont like it after all, I'm not going to give a negative review cause I know it well - not only from my ex - how indies are struggling nowadays with sales. Your problem is that you want a rating system that is common for small , big indies and for AAAs.

This has nothing to do with Black Geysers alone . I did the same with other titles. Same would have happend with Realms of Beyond, too bad the project died. The black geyser team clearly stated in that steam post that poor reviews impact their sales. I heard it from an internal source too. As you can see , they seem to release fixes very, very often, so Ive no intention to fck them up further

If you dont know the wording of empathy, not my problem. Men tend to have a weaker empathy than women, but not zero .

EDIT: nope, Solasta isn't a small indie . Its founders are ex-Ubisoft, with major connections and etc.

Have you played Realms of Antiquity yet?

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1539750/Realms_of_Antiquity_The_Shattered_Crown/

One of the best games, to me, released in years. Most people wouldn't touch it though. I also enjoyed Black Geyser, and it really hit the spot for me being an enjoyer of the original Baldur's Gate.

Unfortunately though, a lot of people don't feel the same way I do, and really love that Pillar's of Eternity/Skyrim/Harry Potter thing, even on here (check the threads if in doubt). Nothing can be done about it, though I suspect Black Geyser will end up being a cult classic, and have a long fuse as the devs continue working on it. If they can afford to.

With that said, most of the reviews on steam for Geyser are positive. It is better rated than a lot of games on the platform. Having the first three being negative just makes it look worse than the stats show.

 

[GreenMagicSpell]

Ladonna: I hear you and basically agree with you, but I think at least one thing can be done about it : talking about it. Raising one's voice. For example, how Justinian handles reviewing is honest - others should follow him/her. BTW my ex ( who we are in still in good terms with ) no longer has a job in black geyser so I'm really no way affiliated even emotionally here. And anyway, whoever dislikes what I say, should challenge it by content and not by who I'm.

Justinian: I wholeheartedly agree. When Black Geysers had crazy loading times for most people, it deserved the negative reviews and then devs fixed it during a few weeks. Now take a look at its reviews from latest 3-5 months: loadiing time complaints almost dont exist. Same with rulesystem un-documentedness. So the intention is there from devs. But in some places they indicated that the Mixed Rating seriously impacts their sales which makes it impossible to continue fixes based on Player feed back. For me and many others , they proved they're listening to reviews, so we should be more forgiving, thats all.

Anyhoo , I Hope codex "unwritten" rules haven't changed since previous years , and my pust will survive moderation but:

First and fore most, I'm happy my thoughts generateted so much debate or discussion haha.

Second, the mental darkness I can touch here in the above posts (except a few well-educated posts) is shocking really. Deliverately mis interpreting my thoughts , twisting them just for the sake of it. So, my final attempt with simple thoughts , maybe the mental capacity of twisters can consume them :

Some of the best RPGs generally appreciated here have had limited budgets. So intent matters more than the end result. Most of the time. So it's not that people lack empathy, it's just the fact that we don't want that goodwill to be abused by grifters.

This has nothing to do with the discussion. There are good and not so good, and niche and not so niche limited-budget indies. Empathy was meant for games like blackgeyser: if I see that a dev team is genuinely listening to reviews since the game's release launch day and trying to fix stuff within their admittedly very small budget, I dont post a negative review in places where it impacts their sales. Cause there are many other places I can publish my review without reducing their Steam Score.

Solasta devs aren't indie because some/all of them once had real jobs and some of them met people during that time. Seems legit and not at all ridiculous.

Let me help you: a zero-product team with no connections in game industry vs. a team where ex-Ubisoft officials bring their own connections, know-how and investors. Solasta is good because it is good design and proper budget, true. No one denies this. Blackgeyser guys tried something out of nothing, they seemingly under-planned the budgetary conditions, made some bad designs too, but they made a functional game that still MANY players enjoy a lot. Have you heard what it means born into a poor family vs into a wealthy well-educated family? Same IQ, yet the latter children make it more easily to university , have better jobs . Even without their parents money .

So what is the cutoff in studio size where you can share your honest opinion about a game via a review?

I'm going to make a last attempt to summarize things:

- Honest negative reviews (or even "angry because of X" reviews) are fine, and can be published on many places: Codex, the game's Steam or GoGG forums, Discord etc. Places where it doesn't hurt the dev. Blackgeyser got lots of genuinely rude and negative reviews on its Steam forums, Codex and other places - and rightfully so. So the point mentioned by some posts "hey, you want to dis allow negative reviews" is utter bull shit. I just dont think Steam Store is the proper place for it for small but hardworking titles. Its not only blackgeyser. Every honest developer.

Dude, if people would give good reviews to any indie because of poor devs/indie status, the market (at least on Steam) would crash. You wouldn't be able to tell a shovelware title from something genuinely good. Which in the end would kill developers making a real effort.

Another utter bullshit, because it argues against something I have not said . Games with more-or-less serious issues (for non hard core fans ) WILL get bad reviews on Steam, either way. Example is black geyser yes. BUT to support them and helping them to get better sales, there is RESPONSIBLE thinking in reviewing (as it isn't going to prevent negative reviews, just reduce their impact, statisticaly). Some people just wait for fixes before posting reviews. Others think like Justinian: if they see a dev did not really care about the Quality of their work , a bad review is given . If they see its an honest work and actively supported ( like my self thinking), you dont post subjective reviews on places where it impacts sales .

Anyway many of you here are evil capitalists ( yes, I hate communism more than capitalism, before one would call me a commie). Capitalists who feel empathic because they supported fake-refugees with donations and thus you buy bribe your own conscience . Deeply inside , you know its not true empathy. You just need to feel good ... on the surface. Haha.

Overall , most ( not all ) posters here are a great stamp of where the world ( both West and East ) is going . Living in your virtual worlds with your virtual truths with zero empathy and understanding for your peers . And bargaining your own conscience by supporting distant things like fake-refugees back in 2015. (Yeah , there were genuine ones too , but the propaganda worked as well: "every person is refugee who claims to be one", "every woman/man is a woman/man who claims to be one" etc. etc etc.) My appetite is gone

 

[Ladonna]

Ladonna: I hear you and basically agree with you, but I think at least one thing can be done about it : talking about it. Raising one's voice. For example, how Justinian handles reviewing is honest - others should follow him/her. BTW my ex ( who we are in still in good terms with ) no longer has a job in black geyser so I'm really no way affiliated even emotionally here. And anyway, whoever dislikes what I say, should challenge it by content and not by who I'm.

Justinian: I wholeheartedly agree. When Black Geysers had crazy loading times for most people, it deserved the negative reviews and then devs fixed it during a few weeks. Now take a look at its reviews from latest 3-5 months: loadiing time complaints almost dont exist. Same with rulesystem un-documentedness. So the intention is there from devs. But in some places they indicated that the Mixed Rating seriously impacts their sales which makes it impossible to continue fixes based on Player feed back. For me and many others , they proved they're listening to reviews, so we should be more forgiving, thats all.

The negative reviews in question have some oddities, like still mentioning the load times, so they might be some deferred butthurt coming out, and they just decided to write a review about their experiences now. But a lot mention the writing.

Now the writing in this game isn't Avellone. Nor was the original Baldur's Gate. In fact, apart from the excellent scripted voiceovers between chapters and some NPC's, a lot of Baldur's Gate writing is pretty cringe, with all sorts of forced humour and retarded efforts sprinkled around. It doesn't bother me, and I can even find some of it funny. It is genuine writing from RPG nerds, and I can appreciate that.

Geyser has some of these moments too, along with the really hard efforts at desperately trying to put out an epic, riveting storyline that instead come off as a Game Master's best efforts on a sunday. Again, I can appreciate that because it reminds me of an actual RPG instead of some high brow writer making a script for Hollywood, but there are a lot of people now that DEMAND these games are written with lots of fluff, and everything has to flow a certain way, and NPC's have to have deep discussions about they way they tie their shoelaces is due to their own homo erotic thoughts and the way their father treated them during the Dong War's of 20 years ago.

Fuck that shit. Sure, I can enjoy it with the right game, so long as an actual, decent writer is doing it, and I find whatever it is they are writing about interesting, but otherwise, I prefer simple, RPG nerd writing that gets the point across and we can all get back to the task at hand. Have a crack at putting out your "Evil One is dooming the world! You are the chosen because Reasons" but then carry on. I prefer being cast as just a bunch of normal adventurers on a mission for fortune and/or glory (See Pool of Radiance) but I can live with a Chosen One (TM) from time to time.

This is where Black Geyser tripped up with these kinds of people; it came out swinging with the "Epic Quest!" thing, couldn't deliver to these peoples satisfaction (Companions aren't talking to me every 5 seconds/Can't sleep with my familiar/the world isn't noticing my new shoes) and now they aren't happy.

Hopefully the Geyser devs will just focus on the gameplay and content and not try to bend over for these retards going forward. That way lies madness.

 

[Tyranicon]

there is RESPONSIBLE thinking in reviewing. Some people just wait for fixes before posting reviews. Others think like Justinian: if they see a dev did not really care about the Quality of their work , a bad review is given . If they see its an honest work and actively supported ( like my self thinking), you dont post subjective reviews on places where it impacts sales .

I can sympathize with this. Basically every small dev should have a sign that says "Hey, this game is made by three dudes in a basement and we need to money to buy potatos for soup."

Small scale dev is hard, and it's unfair when some dumbfuck leaves a review with 0.1 hours of playtime saying "I don't like the color of the title menu, 0/10."

But Black Geyser seems like it's doing well, over 500 reviews. Not bad for an indie.

 

[Raghar]

Well, Black Geyser is normal average isometric RPG, that is probably bit more playable than Pillars of Ethernity. Pillars of ethernity had botched RPG system, Black Geyser has a bit game flow issue.

 

[Raghar]

Some names are dumb, like in every other crpg (Jaheira? Jan?).

Negro please, the game is literally called Black Gay Sir. And the studio is gRape Ocean. And for a brief marvelous moment their barbarian class was called the Crushmaster. If you don't think this goes a bit beyond a funky spelling of Ian, I don't know what to tell you.

But at the end of the day, the game is basically a low-budget but not too terrible BG clone with some fresh ideas.

Yep, "crushmaster" etc is what I'm referring to here. It was amazing.

WTF, why didn't they keep Crushmaster?

 

[Alienman]

BUT to support them and helping them to get better sales, there is RESPONSIBLE thinking in reviewing

Screw that, I have been burned enough times, and lost enough money already on false promises. If a game is broken or is badly written, I'm not giving it a positive review that it might get fixed eventually. Especially if it's a 1.0 release or past. You can blame other indie developers for that by the way.

Three things:

1. It sounds like you proposing some kind of "equity" in reviews for game developers, which just rubs me the wrong way.
2. You argue from the point that Black Geyser is amazing and deserves better, the problem seems to be that you think it's unfathomable that anyone could consider it a genuinely bad game, and don't give a shit of how much money they make. Which leads to:
3. Maybe it's you are that lacking empathy (since you keep using that word) - for the consumer. You evil capitalist you, taking money from the poor proletarians, and not providing them an adequate product!

 

[GreenMagicSpell]

none of the three points have to do anything with what I wrote, but don't be bothered with it

for instance, I nowhere said Black Geyser was awesome and deserved more positive reviews. What I said is that it deserved less negative reviews that impacted Steam score. Since negative reviews keep coming either way, I merely suggested that those who feel they can be forgiving, should be more forgiving a tad bit. My ex boy friend makes 3 times (no kidding) more money salary now than when he worked full time for black geyser but he remembers those times with love , the extreme overtimes coffee, he was doing what he enjoyed and the freedom the small indie gave. No bull shitting, no bureacracy .

 

[mediocrepoet]

Let me help you: a zero-product team with no connections in game industry

Ok. Why do I, or anyone who isn't that team's mother(s), care? Why do they deserve my money simply because they couldn't get a job and/or meet someone. Why is that my responsibility to coddle some stranger so that they can do a job they want to do? If they want it, they can earn it. If they can't earn it, perhaps they should look to something else, just like everyone else in every other industry.

Blackgeyser guys tried something out of nothing, they seemingly under-planned the budgetary conditions, made some bad designs too, but they made a functional game that still MANY players enjoy a lot.

That's nice. They failed at certain elements of their first project and learned from it. The way all other start ups do. Why does this mean that small teams deserve a free pass?

Have you heard what it means born into a poor family vs into a wealthy well-educated family? Same IQ, yet the latter children make it more easily to university , have better jobs . Even without their parents money .

Yeah, guess what? I've faced homelessness and poverty, was raised by a single mother, etc., etc. No one cares. No one should care. That's like saying we should put on a game box, made by a one legged paraplegic man who needs money to pay for his blind hamster's medical bills. Does that mean it will be a better game that someone might enjoy more? Or are they looking for a hand out?

Get in line at the fucking soup kitchen if you want charity, otherwise make something worthwhile that can earn a decent review and is worth the price tag. Period.

 

[GreenMagicSpell]

The above post is a perfect summary of what I was talking about about today's moral and humanity standards. Selfishness and lack of empathy reached a sick level nowadays. Girls (and guyz), let me share you my thought: people who post malicious game reviews (or frustrated posts like the above one) are frustrated with their own life and they need a target to exploit. Something to blame. It's called Projection also. Look it up on wiki pedia. Again: not ALL indie game or black geysers reviews are like this. But there are plenty. Which is sad.

Yeah, guess what? I've faced homelessness and poverty, was raised by a single mother, etc., etc. No one cares. No one should care.

Indeed, no one should care about those who are in a worse situation than ourselves. If you are poor, it's your own fault, sure, yes, of course. Did you consider forgiving yourself about your past. It would help.

 

[mediocrepoet]

The above post is a perfect summary of what I was talking about about today's moral and humanity standards.

Yeah, guess what? I've faced homelessness and poverty, was raised by a single mother, etc., etc. No one cares. No one should care.

Indeed, no one should care about those who are in a worse situation than ourselves. If you are poor, it's your own fault, sure, yes, of course. Did you consider forgiving yourself about your past. It would help.

Yeah. Also my dog is hurt and I need treatment for my male pattern baldness. Please send money. In exchange, I'll send you a game you won't like. Spread the word!

 

[GreenMagicSpell]

Are you trying to hook up here ? What's wrong with you.

Nope, I won't send money to help your dog or baldness, but I won't discourage others to consider doing so (Steam Review Analogy). Is this a too complex sentence to interpret. Yes? Good. You won't get my phone number sorry. Do not even DM me.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Are you trying to hook up here ? What's wrong with you.

Nope, I won't send money to help your dog or baldness, but I won't discourage others to consider doing so (Steam Review Analogy). Is this a too complex sentence to interpret. Yes? Good. You won't get my phone number sorry. Do not even DM me.

... no. But given the types of losers you apparently hang around with, I'll forgive you the hopeful delusion.

Is your hair blue, perchance?

Spoiler

Don't neg rate the indies!

 

[Ladonna]

... no.

You thought about it though. Busted.

Are you trying to hook up here ? What's wrong with you.

You won't get my phone number sorry. Do not even DM me.

You have just sent out an alert to the basement dwelling denizens. Given them a "quest". Put your profile on private, and your private message box to closed. Stat.

 

[mediocrepoet]

... no.

You thought about though. Busted.

I was more stunned at the bizarre left turn from some net fuggo.

 

[The_Mask]

I knew memorizing all those BG II lines would be useful one day.

Use the one Salvanas uses on Mazzy: "Ah, my little chestnut, we meet again!"

 

[Acrux]

See what happens when you let women use your website?

 

[rojay]

The above post is a perfect summary of what I was talking about about today's moral and humanity standards. Selfishness and lack of empathy reached a sick level nowadays. Girls (and guyz), let me share you my thought: people who post malicious game reviews (or frustrated posts like the above one) are frustrated with their own life and they need a target to exploit. Something to blame. It's called Projection also. Look it up on wiki pedia. Again: not ALL indie game or black geysers reviews are like this. But there are plenty. Which is sad.

Yeah, guess what? I've faced homelessness and poverty, was raised by a single mother, etc., etc. No one cares. No one should care.

Indeed, no one should care about those who are in a worse situation than ourselves. If you are poor, it's your own fault, sure, yes, of course. Did you consider forgiving yourself about your past. It would help.

I thought Black Geyser was pretty good and I left a positive review. I probably wouldn't have taken the time to write a negative review because I have better things to do and maybe just a bit because I sympathize with small developers who are trying to make a passion project come true. But Jesus Christ we're talking about Steam reviews.

Some people aren't going to like your game and they're going to tell everyone why they don't like your game. Some of those people will make valid points and you can take that criticism and learn from it. Some of those people just don't like your game for a purely subjective reason and you can learn from or ignore that as the case may be.

Some of those people will just be trolls. They will leave bad reviews just to fuck with you and in the hope that fans of the game will engage with them in the comments. I don't get the motivation but here is something I do know: if you can't handle getting trolled in reviews maybe choose a career other than "indie developer" because having a thick skin is part of the job if you're using Steam to sell your game.

tl;dr: trolls bad, deal with it.

 

[cretin]

The above post is a perfect summary of what I was talking about about today's moral and humanity standards. Selfishness and lack of empathy reached a sick level nowadays. Girls (and guyz), let me share you my thought: people who post malicious game reviews (or frustrated posts like the above one) are frustrated with their own life and they need a target to exploit. Something to blame. It's called Projection also. Look it up on wiki pedia. Again: not ALL indie game or black geysers reviews are like this. But there are plenty. Which is sad.

This is just the $10 word version of "wow who hurt you?"