AI Dialogue is Here. How to Make it not Boring?

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

I don't really see the point in using AI to automate the trivial boring stuff.

Create more content faster with a smaller team.

I know PST has 1.2 million words in its tlk file, but how much of that is not padding?

World building, lore, and yes, immersion. It's not padding. Padding is all the trashmob fights.

Unless the conversation involves racism, sexism, or romance options, a character's race and gender shouldn't matter.

Some of the most interesting conversations involve these topics though. And NPCs that recognize player choices are an important part of interactivity and replayability. Even simply greeting someone differently depending on race or whatever can enhance the experience.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I don't really see the point in using AI to automate the trivial boring stuff.

Create more content faster with a smaller team.

I know PST has 1.2 million words in its tlk file, but how much of that is not padding?

World building, lore, and yes, immersion. It's not padding. Padding is all the trashmob fights.

Unless the conversation involves racism, sexism, or romance options, a character's race and gender shouldn't matter.

Some of the most interesting conversations involve these topics though. And NPCs that recognize player choices are an important part of interactivity and replayability. Even simply greeting someone differently depending on race or whatever can enhance the experience.

Maybe in competent hands, but we all know this will be used to cut corners.

 

[Hammer Of The Heretics]

Good intentions are no substitute for knowing how to use a chainsaw.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Maybe in competent hands, but we all know this will be used to cut corners.

First you say that PST should have eliminated all the "filler" dialog. Now you want to talk about cutting corners.

If you want to doomer post just for the sake of it, go right ahead, but be honest about it.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

This sounds like the most generic MMORPG drivel.

No shit, Sherlock. It's meant to add dialog into a roguelike, where there'd ordinarily be even more generic sounding dialog.

The other option is to use it to assist human writers, but you need a finetune for that and this is just finetuned into a chat bot.

 

[Berekän]

You can't not make it boring. I don't avoid small talk in the real world just to go back to my computer and listen to some AI's drivel, as if it had anything interesting to say.

I can see it working as background noise, so if two NPC's are chatting between each other and you add a voice synthesizer AI on top, that way they don't talk about mudcrabs all day. But again, it's nothing you'd really want to pay attention to.

 

[ArchAngel]

This sounds like the most generic MMORPG drivel.

No shit, Sherlock. It's meant to add dialog into a roguelike, where there'd ordinarily be even more generic sounding dialog.

The other option is to use it to assist human writers, but you need a finetune for that and this is just finetuned into a chat bot.

There can not be more generic that this shit. Same shit, waste of effort.

 

[kangaxx]

The problem with some AI dialogue right now is that people aren't using the full extent of the AI's abilities, and are sat wondering why everything sounds bland and generic.

With just a few good example conversations, you can get all kinds of characters. Here's a Racist Chinese Takeaway Owner Stereotype, for example:

They somehow imprisoned the soul of my local Chinese takeaway owner in an AI.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Maybe in competent hands, but we all know this will be used to cut corners.

First you say that PST should have eliminated all the "filler" dialog. Now you want to talk about cutting corners.

If you want to doomer post just for the sake of it, go right ahead, but be honest about it.

You're probably right. I'm very cynical.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

A proper AI npc would try to predict player behavior, be ahead of their actions after learning how they would react.

Most humans don't even do that. Also this kind of AI has existed for decades and doesn't require a neural net (e.g. adaptive difficulty in Homeworld's single-player campaign, Left 4 Dead's AI director). Human behavior isn't as complex as we would like to suppose.

I think AI could bring a lot to the table, specially for RPGs.

Instead of having one or two "choice matters" options we could have some extra with different flavors, like in the olden days.
Certain information could be dynamically scattered in different conversations/npcs, avoiding synthetic loredumps. Managed by some variables of what the player/npc knows?
In the same vein, you could avoid having extra writing workload for 2349 races and genders and whatnot and have conversation dynamicaly adapt, maybe even take events of the world and the passage of time into account.
Instant rewrites and iterations, easy narrative changes late in development?
Possibly easier localization if the ai is writing stuff in the correct language as opposed to translation?

I see the whole thing more as a tool to complement writers than as a direct replacement. I'm just guessing but I assume that writers want to write interesting an important stuff, and the menial and repetitive parts could be relegated and maybe made less menial and repetitive in the process.

I don't really see the point in using AI to automate the trivial boring stuff. I think it makes more sense to just not include that sort of stuff. Maybe if you've got writers block or need some ideas, but I don't think we should rely on AI more than absolutely necessary. At this point it just becomes padding for the sake of padding.

The things that are trivial and boring for the writer or designer are not the same things that are trivial and boring for the player.

I know PST has 1.2 million words in its tlk file, but how much of that is not padding? I know people love the amount of dialogue options you can get even in unimportant conversations, but after a certain point the novelty wears off and it becomes padding. By comparison Bloodlines has only a fraction the amount of dialogue but, combined with hammy voice acting and stylized facial animation, it's no less memorable and still manages to include immersive sim elements.

Unless the conversation involves racism, sexism, or romance options, a character's race and gender shouldn't matter. Certainly not enough to require a ridiculous amount of extra work.

Wait, are you opposed to choice & consequence as a principle of RPG design?

World events? Passage of time? Is this an open world game where you can backtrack to every location you previously visited? Your actions have visible consequences for the entire world such that even backwater villages should change to reflect the world state?

I'm sorry, I just don't see the point of all this padding. You don't need to be able to hold long conversations with every peasant you meet on the street. There's immersion, and then there's just wasting time.

Why do you even play RPGs if you see content as a waste of time? Surely you can find a more productive use of your time.

 

[Peachcurl]

I think AI could bring a lot to the table, specially for RPGs.

Instead of having one or two "choice matters" options we could have some extra with different flavors, like in the olden days.
Certain information could be dynamically scattered in different conversations/npcs, avoiding synthetic loredumps. Managed by some variables of what the player/npc knows?
In the same vein, you could avoid having extra writing workload for 2349 races and genders and whatnot and have conversation dynamicaly adapt, maybe even take events of the world and the passage of time into account.
Instant rewrites and iterations, easy narrative changes late in development?
Possibly easier localization if the ai is writing stuff in the correct language as opposed to translation?

I see the whole thing more as a tool to complement writers than as a direct replacement. I'm just guessing but I assume that writers want to write interesting an important stuff, and the menial and repetitive parts could be relegated and maybe made less menial and repetitive in the process.

I don't really see the point in using AI to automate the trivial boring stuff. I think it makes more sense to just not include that sort of stuff. Maybe if you've got writers block or need some ideas, but I don't think we should rely on AI more than absolutely necessary. At this point it just becomes padding for the sake of padding.

I know PST has 1.2 million words in its tlk file, but how much of that is not padding? I know people love the amount of dialogue options you can get even in unimportant conversations, but after a certain point the novelty wears off and it becomes padding. By comparison Bloodlines has only a fraction the amount of dialogue but, combined with hammy voice acting and stylized facial animation, it's no less memorable and still manages to include immersive sim elements.

Unless the conversation involves racism, sexism, or romance options, a character's race and gender shouldn't matter. Certainly not enough to require a ridiculous amount of extra work.

World events? Passage of time? Is this an open world game where you can backtrack to every location you previously visited? Your actions have visible consequences for the entire world such that even backwater villages should change to reflect the world state?

I'm sorry, I just don't see the point of all this padding. You don't need to be able to hold long conversations with every peasant you meet on the street. There's immersion, and then there's just wasting time.

Then don't use it for the boring stuff?

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Then don't use it for the boring stuff?

I'm not, but I can't speak for anyone else.

Content for its own sake is part of the dangerous consumerist mindset that is destroying civilization. I think content should be included because it is meaningful, rather than because you're trying to pad out the runtime or give a misguided sense of "immersion". Hypothetically, you could give every peasant you meet on the street a 1000 page backstory and complex inner life. The AI could easily generate that for you. But should you implement that? What purpose does it serve? Immersion isn't really about giving depth to your game. It's about giving the illusion of depth to entertain the player. Actual depth is very messy and could easily become unwieldy and unfun.

I think PST does it sufficiently well. Some of it can feel like padding, but every conversation was handcrafted by Chris Avelone. I respect his dedication. You don't need to do more than that.

 

[Peachcurl]

Then don't use it for the boring stuff?

Hypothetically, you could give every peasant you meet on the street a 1000 page backstory and complex inner life. The AI could easily generate that for you. But should you implement that?

Of course not. Doesn't mean AI is useless.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

Then don't use it for the boring stuff?

I'm not, but I can't speak for anyone else.

Content for its own sake is part of the dangerous consumerist mindset that is destroying civilization. I think content should be included because it is meaningful, rather than because you're trying to pad out the runtime or give a misguided sense of "immersion". Hypothetically, you could give every peasant you meet on the street a 1000 page backstory and complex inner life. The AI could easily generate that for you. But should you implement that? What purpose does it serve? Immersion isn't really about giving depth to your game. It's about giving the illusion of depth to entertain the player. Actual depth is very messy and could easily become unwieldy and unfun.

You are conflating depth with complexity. Complexity does not imply depth.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I really dislike the approach of people who think about writing as a content creation process. This mindset, especially combined with the obsession about being productive leads to thinking that more is better and flooding readers with useless stuff. The strength of writing lies in it's relation to reality, not in as many worlds content producer can vormit. This is why popular tropes often don't work. They were originally integral parts of better works, that fulfill some role within their context, but lesser author rips them apart and they stop working.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

I really dislike the approach of people who think about writing as a content creation process. This mindset, especially combined with the obsession about being productive leads to thinking that more is better and flooding readers with useless stuff. The strength of writing lies in it's relation to reality, not in as many worlds content producer can vormit. This is why popular tropes often don't work. They were originally integral parts of better works, that fulfill some role within their context, but lesser author rips them apart and they stop working.

You're really selling the technology short. GPT-3 doesn't just generate language, it can also be used to interpret language.




AI will let you give detailed verbal instructions to NPCs. It will bring about a new kind of user interface.

 

[Lemming42]

Yeah, the excitement in this kind of thing isn't merely the ability to populate worlds with dynamic NPCs (as opposed to the cookie-cutter NPCs of, say, Morrowind or Daggerfall), but to unlock entirely new models of gameplay, whole new genres of videogames.

Taking Fallout as an example: instead of your interactions with Ian from Fallout being relegated to saying "use melee/use ranged" or "stand close/stand far", you'll be able to hash out with him exactly how you're going to tackle the Khans base, debating with him over how to proceed. The two of you can discuss and agree on a plan of attack, which is different from that of any other player. Imagine something like Rainbow Six with the ability to not only discuss and argue over the plan before the mission starts, but also the ability to give updates and revisions to intelligent teammates while the plan is in motion.

This could also be the key to solving the eternal Speech problem of RPGs (the fact that Speech skills are always shit because it's simply a case of "dump points into speech -> click speech option -> win").

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I really dislike the approach of people who think about writing as a content creation process. This mindset, especially combined with the obsession about being productive leads to thinking that more is better and flooding readers with useless stuff. The strength of writing lies in it's relation to reality, not in as many worlds content producer can vormit. This is why popular tropes often don't work. They were originally integral parts of better works, that fulfill some role within their context, but lesser author rips them apart and they stop working.

You're really selling the technology short. GPT-3 doesn't just generate language, it can also be used to interpret language.




AI will let you give detailed verbal instructions to NPCs. It will bring about a new kind of user interface.

That's an amazing assistant for disabled or old people. However, the fact that the robot is able to recognize simple commands, like move object A to place B or remember previous commands does not make it a good storyteller.

 

[jfrisby]

Reminds me of Starship Titanic. Wasn't even that compelling when Douglas Adams wrote every response.. not sure the game would have been that much better if an AI filled in even more responses there.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Content for its own sake is part of the dangerous consumerist mindset that is destroying civilization. I think content should be included because it is meaningful, rather than because you're trying to pad out the runtime or give a misguided sense of "immersion".

Again, that's not why there was so much dialog in PST, and that's not what we're suggesting.

Hypothetically, you could give every peasant you meet on the street a 1000 page backstory and complex inner life.

Strawman. We aren't arguing for that. The demo video does that, but that's just because you're interacting with GPT directly. It's obviously not much of a solution in that implementation, since the AI and the game don't actually interact both ways. And this thread is about thinking of a better implementation than the video.

It's about giving the illusion of depth to entertain the player.

Entertaining the player. Oh no!

Actual depth is very messy and could easily become unwieldy and unfun.

So now you don't want the illusion of depth, but adding actual depth isn't good either. Ok. Shallow games only for you.

I'm a player, and I wouldn't mind at least one roguelike that uses this for NPC dialog, since it's all randomly generated anyway. Not every game has to have it, and you don't have to play it.

 

[ArchAngel]

So how long until AI replaces code monkeys while humans only define inputs for the code in user friendly UI?

 

[lukaszek]

So how long until AI replaces code monkeys while humans only define inputs for the code in user friendly UI?

sounds like you need rpg maker in your life

 

[Peachcurl]

So how long until AI replaces code monkeys while humans only define inputs for the code in user friendly UI?

Coding now: google problem, copy paste code, compile
Coding then: tell AI problem, copy paste code, compile, AI enslaves humanity.

Hardly anything changes.

 

[EvilWolf]

So how long until AI replaces code monkeys while humans only define inputs for the code in user friendly UI?

Coding now: google problem, copy paste code, compile
Coding then: tell AI problem, copy paste code, compile, AI enslaves humanity.

Hardly anything changes.

As an amateur coder I can tell you 99.9% of modern devs don't even make it that far because their cookie cutter engine already has the code they need and if they did make it that far they'd catch flak from the higher ups for trying to overcomplicate the codebase. Secondly, good luck finding answers to your precise scenario on google. It'll only lead you on a wild goose chase through stackoverflow for 3 hours until you find some buried comment that's close enough for you to fill in the blanks.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

So how long until AI replaces code monkeys while humans only define inputs for the code in user friendly UI?

Coding now: google problem, copy paste code, compile
Coding then: tell AI problem, copy paste code, compile, AI enslaves humanity.

Hardly anything changes.

As an amateur coder I can tell you 99.9% of modern devs don't even make it that far because their cookie cutter engine already has the code they need and if they did make it that far they'd catch flak from the higher ups for trying to overcomplicate the codebase. Secondly, good luck finding answers to your precise scenario on google. It'll only lead you on a wild goose chase through stackoverflow for 3 hours until you find some buried comment that's close enough for you to fill in the blanks.

Learned Java with Netbeans and the thing does like 60% of the configurations and imports for you