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Age of Wonders 4

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
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Pathfinder: Wrath
By "hidden", I mean they are summoned in combat, not in stealth on the map. I assumed the AI attacked me because it had a higher army power, not because it would attack me with whatever it has regardless if it's even remotely enough. This is the first turn of me besieging the city btw, the defenders attacked me, I defeated them as seen on the screenshot and then Nimue (the actual leader hero) attacks me on the very next turn with 3 full stacks. So the AI somehow has 6 stacks near its throne city within 1 turn movement range in a random timeframe.
 

Lord of Riva

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Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
By "hidden", I mean they are summoned in combat, not in stealth on the map. I assumed the AI attacked me because it had a higher army power, not because it would attack me with whatever it has regardless if it's even remotely enough. This is the first turn of me besieging the city btw, the defenders attacked me, I defeated them as seen on the screenshot and then Nimue (the actual leader hero) attacks me on the very next turn with 3 full stacks. So the AI somehow has 6 stacks near its throne city within 1 turn movement range in a random timeframe.

I see.

One definite issue is the Calculated army power is completely out of whack, the Ai is incapable of doing reasonable tactical turns in combat, so it will always misinterpret the army power to it's detriment, I have yet to loose a single battle that has not been "impossible".
 

Blutwurstritter

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The tier 3 unit as summon on hero lvl 5 is pretty much always the best choice. Its strange that this passed balancing. Most other hero abilities are ridiculously weak in comparison.

A problem with the core gameplay is that there is no restriction in the choice of tomes. I'm not sure what the best way would be to handle this point, but the ability to pick freely makes it a shallow mechanic. You can always get the one that fits you the most in your current situation. There should be some sort of interaction with the rest of the game in the form of choices and play styles, beyond your initial setup. Perhaps some requirements to unlock the books in addition to research. Or make it work similar to the boost mechanic(but less shallow, with more interesting conditions) such that competing game styles and "builds" could become a thing. Weaker books could be balanced by being easier/faster to access for example. Some being stronger and weaker/situational wouldn't be as much of a problem if there were some factors to balance this out.
 

Lord of Riva

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Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Weaker books could be balanced by being easier/faster to access for example. Some being stronger and weaker/situational wouldn't be as much of a problem if there were some factors to balance this out.

They are easier and faster to access, the research costs a lot less knowledge and your can progress them a lot faster and farm affinity this way.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
I'm sure that meta builds will theoretically form eventually, but that presupposes the game will retain enough players for it to matter. Seeing as how AoW3 and PF had abysmal player retention rates according to SteamCharts, I wouldn't hold my breath, especially since 4 lacks content that isn't RMG with very subpar AI. The entire game needs quite a lot of work regardless, especially balance-wise.
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
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Combatfag: Gold box / Pathfinder
Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
I'm inclined to agree. The game is fun enough at first, but has all the depth of a phone game. I still don't mind tooling around with it but could see bouncing off it fairly quickly.

It has made me interested in going back to check out the series' roots though, so it hasn't been a complete waste.
 

Blutwurstritter

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Weaker books could be balanced by being easier/faster to access for example. Some being stronger and weaker/situational wouldn't be as much of a problem if there were some factors to balance this out.

They are easier and faster to access, the research costs a lot less knowledge and your can progress them a lot faster and farm affinity this way.
I didn't mean the tier levels but the utility and that some books of the same tier can have better spells than others. The option to differentiate also within tiers wouldn't hurt.
The fact that you can easily one-turn the stuff in lower tier books is another problem that makes the choice of your tomes even more trivial. At the very beginning I thought that you were limited to two tome picks per tier, which would have been preferable in my opinion, since the game lacks hard/tough choices. At the moment you can in principle always get everything, only the order of things is different.
 

Longes

Augur
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Jan 13, 2013
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I'm sure that meta builds will theoretically form eventually, but that presupposes the game will retain enough players for it to matter. Seeing as how AoW3 and PF had abysmal player retention rates according to SteamCharts, I wouldn't hold my breath, especially since 4 lacks content that isn't RMG with very subpar AI. The entire game needs quite a lot of work regardless, especially balance-wise.
The meta build is taking Prolific Swarmers, which is good at all times, and then whatever second trait you want to build your strategy around.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
The meta build is taking Prolific Swarmers, which is good at all times, and then whatever second trait you want to build your strategy around.
Prolific Swarmers + Tome of Roots are enough on their own to get you through a game. I don't think it matters at all what else you pick as long as you make coherent army compositions. Something which the AI doesn't do btw. There's another problem, however, the bad society traits and tomes are actually very bad, and that's like half of all tomes and traits. Some of them are so awful in fact that they are bad at the things they are specialized in.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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The game expects you and actively encourages you to run a circus. When I played mystic elves and focused strictly on the mystic tomes, pretty much all the units I've unlocked were the same unit. No kidding or exaggerating - 6 or 7 same mages standing with their hands stretched out and having an elemental attack mostly dealing electrocuting damage. The only difference was that like 2 of them were "support", meaning they had single attack, but some healing as well and the rest didn't. Out of the 3 or 4 not-sparkly-mage units unlocked there was exactly one unit that was high tier and semi-capable of melee, some foggy looking teleporting panther.

A lot of the choices are extremely superficial or simply fake. Culture traits are example of that. You pick something with a cool name and in practice it's just a minor bonus and you play just like anyone else. There seems to be exactly one strong exception from that rule - the one city stellaris fanatical purifiers perk that you need to unlock by grind. +1 medal to ranged units? Whoa, amazing, shame you forgot that unit leveling sucks same ass it did in PF and +1 medals means giving your ranged units +4hp or sth, dumbass.

The game also absolutely loves moving stuff around for no reason and no gain and pretending it's a new mechanic. A lot of enchantments work like that - you get a full set of ones, for example, that just give your culture thing to non-culture units. Not only is it boring and samey, but also something that AoW3 would simply and quickly handle by an empire upgrade that would also add something unique on top to make it at least slightly interesting. Like making non-class units devout would also boost their resistance.

I just don't feel their approach to "making your own race".

AoW3: You want frostlings? They have strong support units, so maybe pick sorcerer. You can focus on two least resisted elements and get a t3 support that is not afraid of melee, gets an aoe debuffing attack that can stun and freeze and greatly supports the attacks of the rest of your army. Very cool and satisfying. Or go warlord, strong support for the frost weapons makes them potent in close combat and most warlord class units get them. Then maybe pick explorer, since two warlord class units are irregular and you've got the best racial t1 irregular in the game. Maybe go water for frost elemental. Air to spread freezing terrain? And so on and so forth.
Planetfall: Synergies and interesting synergetic builds? Um, well, if you pick a secret tech with strong unit/mod/spell then it's strong and when it's strong it's synergy! But at least we still have some fun racial diversity for secret tech units, like amazon purifiers having bows, dvar deploying trenches and syndicate being indentured, which is very cool.
AoW4: You want frostlings? Uh, we don't do races anymore. But pick whatever you want, including literally fiery looking shit straight from hell and cast some frosty stuff on it - ta-da, frostlings! Flavor-less and low iq, sorry.

At this point it's pretty obvious that AoW3, or rather the support and development AoW3 received with expansions and patches, was just a fluke.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
lwuer8D.jpg

I lost a single unit against 6 AI stacks. I didn't want to lose my spirit wolf, but the AI laser focuses on it for some reason and I shouldn't have used it at all in order to save it. The map is done anyway, I had to destroy Nimue. Like I said before, the AI doesn't make coherent armies and there's almost 0 synergy between the units Nimue has here.
 

CoronerZg

Augur
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
139
I'm inclined to agree. The game is fun enough at first, but has all the depth of a phone game. I still don't mind tooling around with it but could see bouncing off it fairly quickly.

It has made me interested in going back to check out the series' roots though, so it hasn't been a complete waste.
Likewise, as I was playing my brain started to whine more and more "Music is meh, visuals are meh, gameplay is meh... I want to play AoW1!", and so I did.
So thank you Paradox for reminding me how uninspiring this series has become and how great AoW actually used to be.

 

Mortmal

Arcane
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Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,498
It's not bad at all having fun, but yes you can compare it to stellaris . Races? they are just skins you can put the perks on , ton of spells and summons, but i can foresee too there's only a few you will consider to use. AI ? is there one ? I just entered a war against one with my "ally", the enemy does not siege me, nor send anything , the ally does not move either. Really remind me stellaris begining with no one daring to attack.
Also it seems the pc really heat a lot when playing this.
 

Blutwurstritter

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They have again made a game that is very different to the other titles(I'm excluding Plantefall since I don't know that one well enough) and there is a lot to criticize, but I must admit that for now time flies by while playing it. The question is how will it fare on the long run. I couldn't get into Stellaris but I had fun with the 4 maps that I have played so far in AoW 4. Being easy to get into is actually a good thing, it only becomes a problem if the learning curve stays flat, which seems to be the case. But I'm still far from having tested all options that are offered.
I was also very skeptical of AoW III at first but I do enjoy the latest version, including a bunch of mods. I don't think that the "ship has sailed" already regarding AoW IV.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
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Messages
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Pathfinder: Wrath
It being the fastest selling entry in the franchise doesn't surprise me, considering Paradox basically bought every youtuber and streamer even remotely connected to any strategy game. I'm still playing it too, but mostly in a "when is this going to get good?" sort of way.
 

dsndo

Educated
Joined
Jan 25, 2022
Messages
87
It being the fastest selling entry in the franchise doesn't surprise me, considering Paradox basically bought every youtuber and streamer even remotely connected to any strategy game. I'm still playing it too, but mostly in a "when is this going to get good?" sort of way.
I'm copy/pasting this under that twitter post. It fits under the character limit and sums up my own thoughts perfectly.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
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Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,777
Those are pretty impressive numbers tbh, let them have it. Better this than they/them kind or some in-house paradox abortion.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
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Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,498
Not a surprise , as usual there's absolutely nothing else to get, paradox has full monopoly on strategy games besides a few obscure indies no one try.
 

Suicidal

Arcane
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Apr 29, 2007
Messages
2,317
When I get good at game dev I promise I'll make a successor to AoW2, don't worry guys. Because Triumph sure as fuck won't.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
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Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
I'm shelving this game for now, it has too many bugs that waste my life and it needs a lot more time in the oven anyway. I'd rather play Conquest of Eo/Fantasy General 2/any other AoW besides PF/Gladius/maybe Battlesector. Here's what I think needs to happen (besides bugfixing):

1. A complete balance pass. There are just too many trap choices (I'd say most options are traps) and I find myself picking up mostly the same stuff regardless of what faction I'm playing, especially on the highest difficulties. Vine Prison is an automatic pick every time f.e., it's just too good and it allows you to win battles you would never be able to with any other tome.

2. More mechanical variety within units. While there are a bajillion units, most of it is just cosmetic. The biggest variety is within support units, but almost every defender/skirmisher/spearman/battlemage/charger is essentially the same. Tomes don't really help with differentiating them because whether a unit deals 2 more blight or cold damage is superficial.

3. The strategy side has been stripped down to nothingness and is just there at this point, it needs quite a lot of work to even come close to engaging. This includes ancient wonders. Strategic locations have never been this boring and uneventful in the entire franchise, including PF.

4. The AI needs huge improvements, especially in its ability to compose coherent armies. It does pick its targets somewhat competently when there are no summoned units on the battlefield, but that's it. It has no concept of positioning and just mindlessly rushes at you and blobs up.

5. It needs more emphasis placed on cultures because they become irrelevant by turn 10. Not to mention there are no T4 and 5 culture units.

6. Some realm traits are designed to fuck you over, like the one in the third story mission where units become berserk every 2 turns and start attacking randomly. While this is ok if you choose to pick it as a realm trait, it shouldn't be mandatory in the story missions.
 

Mortmal

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Jun 15, 2009
Messages
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Well, fuck you if this is what people want. I have Conquest of Eo now anyway.

but, but some derp in this thread told me game would be ded after release omg that codex tard was wrong?!
:shitposting:

Multiplayer retention rate for previous age of wonder were extremely low. Even if it sell good, its not sure people will stay. Look lacymas already shelved it.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
Multiplayer retention rate for previous age of wonder were extremely low. Even if it sell good, its not sure people will stay. Look lacymas already shelved it.
It's not only multiplayer retention, it's retention in general. PF has had 300-800 average players since its release.
 

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