Advice for trying out some older RPG's

[Lilura]

I would say something like Dark Sun is the oldest game I’m willing to deal with now because it is all mouse controlled. I’m an old man so the old graphics dont bother me. But the old interfaces are something I can’t justify dealing with today.

Try Hired Guns on the Amiga; it's way ahead of its time in terms of presentation, aesthetics and control.

Get a setup like this going:

It doesn't get anymore

 

[Tigranes]

Good on you OP for giving unfamiliar things a try and trying to appreciate different kinds of game design.

As someone who mostly played pre-Golden Age RPGs decades afterwards, I found that a few hours spent setting up a new rhythm is worth the payoff in the end. It gets easier after one or two, because then you realise what great games await.

Read the manual, seriously helps a lot - also easy to find online (Or ask here) about some quality of life tips.

Emulating with a DOSBox = speed adjustments & save/load states. Don't abuse this, because it will kill your sense of continuity and risk - but this will often help you reduce some of the more onerous timesinks that older games can sometimes have. And you'll quickly realise that many older games actually have a lot faster pacing than newer ones: you're not spending 30 minutes loading four different bloom-filled 3D environments where you run around long corridors to talk to an NPC.

I've personally had good experiences going back to Ultima 7 (pretty clear sense of what to do early on, story-driven, not one for good combat), Wizardry 1 (extremely tight design, some of the brutal time-sink around dying can be mitigated by (1) so it really isn't hugely intimidating), Ultima Underworld (clear goal of mapping out each level of dungeon, again tightly designed).

In the end, if you decide to spend a couple of hours tonight gaming, I'd say spending some time getting to grips with Wizardry 1 and then having some quality time is far less wasteful than spending 2 hours on some mediocre new crap that you can plug and play straight away, but never get a quality experience.

 

[DalekFlay]

I started PC RPGing with Lands of Lore, and as good as games like Ultima 7 are, they definitely have some aspects that make them hard to play if you started gaming afterward. It's mostly the UI in my experience, things like how Ultima Underworld controls or how there's no auto-map in the early Might and Magics. Also, not to sound like a graphics whore, but some of the very basic visual presentations in games like the early Gold Box titles just make me less interested in devoting dozens of hours to them.

For a lot of these titles I have mostly fallen back on watching Youtube retrospectives, rather than playing them myself. Perhaps if I was immortal (or single with no job) I would devote more time to really adjusting to their gameplay quirks, but given I doubt I have time the rest of my life to play everything I want to, it's more about prioritizing than anything else.

 

[Yosharian]

My problem getting into them stems mostly from lack of direction. I don't want my hand held by any means but it's frustrating to waste time getting lost because a game won't give you so much as a line of text saying what vague direction you should go or what it is you're looking to do. My first attempt at getting into these games was Ultima IV, I later tried out M&M4 [...]

You should try M&M III : Isles of terra instead of M&M 4, usually, people either prefer Isles of Terra or Darkside (M&M V).
As for wandering around, in M&M 3, the game gives you some general direction and when you're stuck, you could refer to a guide (RPGclassics)

Like this one

It was nice to wander and try to find everything on your own back when time wasn't an issue but at some point, you don't want to waste it and ogling at a good guide from time to time helps you do just that.

Let's just take a moment to appreciate this lovely map and how nice videogame maps used to be

 

[Yosharian]

You dare rate my post "shit", Haba?

Welcome to uBlock iggy.

I don't often rate posts 'butthurt', but when I do, it's Lilura throwing her toys out of her pram because someone failed to show her the deference she thinks she's owed

 

[Metronome]

I have a job and a life and a huge backlog of other games, feeling like I'm wasting time and not having fun is a mood killer.

There is your problem. Old RPGs were not made to be played by people with a huge backlog of games, and not meant to be beaten by people who have a life.

I remember Wasteland being pretty easy to follow though. At least compared to some other options. If you don't mind playing roguelikes, they don't require as much note taking and need no map making. I myself can't play a lot of older RPGs due to the painful pseudo-3D dungeons. So you're not alone. I think there might be some things you just have to grow up with to enjoy.

 

[Gregz]

Hello all, I've read some codex articles over the years but never posted before. I have a question I'm hoping you can help me with.

I'm rather young, 27 years old, but I've never had a problem playing older video games until somewhat recently. I've been trying to get into some of the older PC RPG's but find myself bouncing off. In particular the Ultima series, Wizardry, and Might and Magic. RPG's have always been my favorite genre and I want to experience more of it's history. Additionally hearing stories about the detailed fantastical worlds and incredible complexity has made me honestly very interested in these games just on their own merits.

My problem getting into them stems mostly from lack of direction. I don't want my hand held by any means but it's frustrating to waste time getting lost because a game won't give you so much as a line of text saying what vague direction you should go or what it is you're looking to do. My first attempt at getting into these games was Ultima IV, I later tried out M&M4, and I also gave one of the D&D Goldbox games a try but I can't remember which one. All had the same problem where I would make a small amount of progress talking to NPC's and killing monsters and sooner or later would be wandering around having no clue what I'm suppose to be looking for and lose patience. I have a job and a life and a huge backlog of other games, feeling like I'm wasting time and not having fun is a mood killer.

So basically what I'm trying to ask is kind of a two-parter. Firstly, is there any kind of tip you can give me to get around this issue in a general sense? Secondly, of these three series where's the best starting point for someone with my problem?

1) RPG Codex Top 70 PC RPGs

2) Google walkthroughs and maps as you need them (your problem of lack of direction). This will require some self-policing.

3) "of these three series where's the best starting point" Play the simplest version, or one of the more recent versions (better UI), not the middle versions. Start with Ultima I or VII, Might and Magic 2 or 6 (I prefer 7), Wizardry 1 or 8. Best Goldbox to start with, I would recommend Curse of the Azure Bonds.

 

[Sigourn]

So basically what I'm trying to ask is kind of a two-parter. Firstly, is there any kind of tip you can give me to get around this issue in a general sense? Secondly, of these three series where's the best starting point for someone with my problem?

It's a well established fact cRPGs only got good starting with Fallout. So don't bother with cRPGs older than Fallout, play JRPGs instead which mastered the concept of being fun since the early 90s. The archaic cRPGs of old could have been great, but weren't, and Fallout and others have mastered their secrets long after them. Sadly cRPGs were ever good for a very brief period of time (about 8 years, from 1997 to 2005). The last few years we have seen more proper cRPGs being made, none of that 80s and early 90s crap only basement virgins care about.

What is this shit, for instance?

Meanwhile, this is what the cool kids with powerful computers play:

 

[Grauken]

As others have said, RTFM, make notes, make maps, have patience. Also you can use the time to go through some new metal albums at the same time

 

[mondblut]

There is a map. Map has blank squares. Blank squares exist to be un-blanked. That's all the directions one needs, really.

 

[Nathaniel3W]

I'm kind of surprised that so many people have mentioned Ultima VII but not VI. I really liked VI. You could get a freakin mouse to join your party, and then you give her a wand in each hand and she's unstoppable! (She's also necessary for getting one of the runes.)

I didn't really like VIII. It was kind of an oddball for the series, taking place in a different setting. And there's water and jumping puzzles and stuff. And IX just sucked. It was awful. I played it 20 years ago and I'm still annoyed about it.

I also recommend Darklands. First really open world game I ever played. It's huge, and there's tons of stuff to do. But if you want a game that gives you clear directions about where to go and what to do, then maybe this isn't for you.

There were also a lot of great Japanese games from the same era.

 

[octavius]

It's a well established fact cRPGs only got good starting with Fallout. So don't bother with cRPGs older than Fallout, play JRPGs instead which mastered the concept of being fun since the early 90s. The archaic cRPGs of old could have been great, but weren't, and Fallout and others have mastered their secrets long after them. Sadly cRPGs were ever good for a very brief period of time (about 8 years, from 1997 to 2005). The last few years we have seen more proper cRPGs being made, none of that 80s and early 90s crap only basement virgins care about.

What is this shit, for instance?

Meanwhile, this is what the cool kids with powerful computers play:

A true CRPG connoisseur enjoys both.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

If you want to go way back and start with something easy/simple, you might want to take a look at Akalabeth. It's perfectly playable in short bursts, the objectives are simple and clear and it might make it easier for you to get into other classic RPGs.

Also, Wizardry 1 has a pretty simple (overall) objective, which should be all the direction you need.

You have to step outside of your comfort zone before you start enjoying these games, and yes, reading a manual is something you have to do.

Since you've named Fallout 1 and 2 as your favorites, I'm going to assume that reading is not too hard for you.

 

[Valky]

OP, what you need to do is play Grimoire: Heralds of the Winged Exemplar. It is the single greatest rpg of the last decade.

 

[ItsChon]

Good luck man. I'm significantly younger than you, so perhaps you won't have the same problems I did, but almost all these "pre-renaissance" RPGs were just too dated for me. I mean, I enjoyed Lands of Lore, but that's about it from what I can recall. I really gave a bunch of games a go too. Several installments from the Ultima, M&M, and Wizardy series, Pools of Radiance, etc, and none of them stuck. There are still a ton of RPGs it seems you need to play that won't be nearly as dated, so if you need suggestions on those, feel free to ask.

 

[Kliwer]

For Ultima IV you need to take lots and lots and lots of notes. Thankfully that's very easy nowadays since DOSBox has an inbuilt screencapper. So take screenshots of everything NPCs say. Figuring out the puzzle and becoming the Avatar of Virtue is what makes U4 worth playing.

But it might be better to start with a smaller and simpler game. Wizardry 1 is a good starting point. Play cautiously, and return frequently to town to heal and replenish spell points. And make sure you make a map. There are several programs you can use for that.

I do not think that Ultima IV or Wizardry 1 are good games to play at all.


There are 3 types of famous old game:

1. Games witch were thresholds of the genre, great for their times, but nothing special today. Those games introduced some new things which show the direction of cRPG evolution but later titles did everything in a better way. Ultima IV and Wizardry are, for me, games of this type.

Why Ultima IV was special? Because it introduce deep story and lore to the cRPGs formula. Previos titles were mostly about hacking through dungeons, gaining experience and collecting equipment. Ultima IV added detailed world with history and a story more complicated than: kill evil wizard. It was a blast of those ancient era, but now… Everything Ultima IV did Fallout did better. It is no reason to play it today (other then love to the Britain universe or historical lesson). The same thing is with Wizardry 1. Its contribution to the genre was introducing deep character system and hard tactical battles – but newer games do the same without atrocious graphic and stupidly hard design.

2. Games that are Neanderthals of the genre, the blind paths of the evolution. This games constructed cRPG around ideas, which will not be followed. Sometimes it is a pity. This games are not good per se but could be interesting if you value some specific ideas. For example: Robinson's Requiem; super realistic simulator of life in wilderness. You have to hunt for food, manage your health (it is very easy to die because of disease) etc. The game is pain to play, but could be interesting.

3. Games that are universally good and always worth to play. They mastered some aspects of cRPG design and, despite of technical limitations, do some things better then even the newest titles. For me, as I said, the best examples of such games are M&M 3-5. You can also count Ultima 7 – the game with a massive open-world exploration, with great interactivity (dialogues, manipulating objects), with living world (NPC schedules, rain, wild animals), lots of secrets and cool stuff (flying carpet…).


As a supplement to my tale I would recommend You some modern conversions of old titles:

-Good way to play Ultima 7: http://exult.sourceforge.net/

-Ultima 5 on Dungeon Siege engine: https://www.u5lazarus.com/

-the same with Ultima 6: http://u6project.com/

-Realms of Arkania 1 and 2 had commercial adaptations (I haven’t play so I know nothing about quality):

https://store.steampowered.com/app/237550/Realms_of_Arkania_Blade_of_Destiny/?l=polish

and

https://store.steampowered.com/app/288860/Realms_of_Arkania_Star_Trail/


I also recommend to start from the games which are old-school in spirit but not very old. As I mentioned: Might and Magic X Legacy, Legend of Grimrock, Arx Fatalis, Wizards and Warriors.

 

[Grauken]

The same thin is with Wizardry 1. Its contribution to the genre was introducing deep character system and hard tactical battles – but newer games do the same without atrocious graphic and stupidly hard design.

How about you actually play the games you diss? Deep character system yes, but blobbers aren't know for hard tactical battles (except the goldbox games that switched to a different mode), but the attrition you suffer when dungeon diving and trying to survive coming up to the city. All the accumulated consequences from the decisions you make all the time, whether to go deeper, whether to open a chest, run from a battle, use one of your scarce spells, is what makes the core gameplay loop here. The battles itself are rather simple.

As for hard design, Wizardry is pretty easy, if you can't manage that it just means you're lazy.

As for graphics, if you can't stand CGA, then you could either play the SNES or PSX remakes, they look beautiful even today

 

[Funposter]

I'm rather young, 27 years old

old ass mf

 

[rusty_shackleford]

start with a real old classic like fallout new vegas

 

[Farewell into the night]

So, what are you going to do Ecko?

 

[samuraigaiden]

One way older games reconnect with the fundamental fabric of table-top role-playing games is the need to actively use your imagination to enrich an experience that would otherwise just be a bare bones interaction with a game system.

 

[mondblut]

So basically what I'm trying to ask is kind of a two-parter. Firstly, is there any kind of tip you can give me to get around this issue in a general sense? Secondly, of these three series where's the best starting point for someone with my problem?

It's a well established fact cRPGs only got good starting with Fallout. So don't bother with cRPGs older than Fallout, play JRPGs instead which mastered the concept of being fun since the early 90s. The archaic cRPGs of old could have been great, but weren't, and Fallout and others have mastered their secrets long after them. Sadly cRPGs were ever good for a very brief period of time (about 8 years, from 1997 to 2005). The last few years we have seen more proper cRPGs being made, none of that 80s and early 90s crap only basement virgins care about.

What is this shit, for instance?

Meanwhile, this is what the cool kids with powerful computers play:

DarkUnderlord we have the "possibly retarded" tag, but I believe it's about time to commission "impossibly retarded" for the occasion.

 

[Zerth]

I've been recently playing late 80s/ early 90s rpgs aswell, since around 2017. And so far, I've beaten the Ultima trilogy (IV,V & VI), Dark Sun, UUnderworld and Betrayal at Krondor.

From rpgs such as BoK, UU and Ultima games (to a greater extent of freedom), I can tell these provide wholesome hours of genuine adventuring; rather than merely wayfaring through an Overworld map towards the next objective as you do on Jrpgs released around the same era, you have to learn and extensively use all sorts of mechanics and resources in order to achieve productive expeditions across these kingdoms that eventually will make you both a powerhouse and filthy rich, only issue of reaching that point is that all the prior perils you encountered exploring become more of a nuisance rather than rewarding but I digress. In BoK, you get a lot of relevant knowledge in regards of the main storyline through sidequests btw, these aren't quota filler.

For instance, in Ultima IV & V you have to learn to translate futhark alphabet and moongate navigation, magic is a more valuable asset as utility rather than an arsenal of nukes (this is even more true in BoK cuz these cost HP/stamina per use), you can blink through a mountain/river towards the other side, have an aerial vision of the area, change wind direction, etc. In BoK, you can form a thick fog to ambush the enemy's party, search concealed items nearby,etc. Scouting is pretty cool on BoK , a competent enough character (which generally are either Gorath or Jimmy) can sometimes "spot" warning signs that there is danger ahead, yet instead of your usual barebones functional text the character will comment of how the tree branches have been cut down for a clearer vision of the surroundings or notices a wheelbarrow's trail nearby.

My advice is to have multiple windows opened side by side: running DOSBOX, map if required (also applies for BoK IMO, It gets pretty tiresome to constantly transition between first person ->travel mode->overworld map screen over and over), DOSBOX screenshot folder and any software to take notes such as excel/sticky/notepad,etc. For the Ultima games, is useful to also take note of NPC name and location since a lot of them are going to point you towards someone else to give you the info you seek, in other instances It will just suffice to take a screenshot, specially after peering an overview of a dungeon floor/towne or after a shrine's vision. The previous advice applies to a lesser extent to UU and BoK though, since these have built in dungeon automapping, and in UU you can save notes over the floor's map, really comes in handy.

 

[DalekFlay]

It's a well established fact cRPGs only got good starting with Fallout.

You're getting a lot of flack, but change this to "got exceptional" and I'd agree.

 

[octavius]

It's a well established fact cRPGs only got good starting with Fallout.

You're getting a lot of flack, but change this to "got exceptional" and I'd agree.

Change "fact" to "opinion" would be better.