Achieving period-correct graphics in personal computer emulators

[Incognito]

This. I keep collecting old TVs because even with a scan doubler and a VGA monitor the Amiga doesn't look right. Sharp pixels belong to PCs.

Same here. Amiga + scan doubler looks totally wrong; that's making a double-scanning VGA adapter out of your Amiga, serious decline.

I don't even care for that stuff; my WinUAE shader setup that emulates a C= monitor is superior to any scan doubler + real CRT, or these Amiga HDMI solutions which are terrible, IMO.

This thread got me thinking about trying a scaler with the Amiga and an SVGA monitor. People usually want scalers for HDMI, but we can connect them to CRTs too. So I went for a cheapo chinese GBS-control which takes SCART, outputs VGA directly (no need for an HDMI-VGA adapter) and does emulated (?) scanlines. The test monitor is a Samtron that goes up to 1280x1024.



To my surprise, the results are very very good. Thought I'd end up returning it to Amazon but now I also want to try the OSSC and the RetroTink just to see how they look.

There are very few parameters to tune and once you get the resolution and scaling right, the image is awesome. Compared to all the TVs I've been using, it looks super clean and crisp. The scanlines are perfect and, as far as I can tell, zero lag. These pictures don't do it any justice, since I can't sync a CRT with a phone camera and the colors aren't accurate too:






It's super hard to track down old 15kHz monitors and having them shipped is a recipe for disaster, so I'm glad to have one more option for the future. (S)VGA monitors are still relatively easy to find.

And from what I've tested, it also works great with the PS1, PS2, NES, SNES and Xbox.

 

[Rincewind]

This. I keep collecting old TVs because even with a scan doubler and a VGA monitor the Amiga doesn't look right. Sharp pixels belong to PCs.

Same here. Amiga + scan doubler looks totally wrong; that's making a double-scanning VGA adapter out of your Amiga, serious decline.

I don't even care for that stuff; my WinUAE shader setup that emulates a C= monitor is superior to any scan doubler + real CRT, or these Amiga HDMI solutions which are terrible, IMO.

This thread got me thinking about trying a scaler with the Amiga and an SVGA monitor. People usually want scalers for HDMI, but we can connect them to CRTs too. So I went for a cheapo chinese GBS-control which takes SCART, outputs VGA directly (no need for an HDMI-VGA adapter) and does emulated (?) scanlines. The test monitor is a Samtron that goes up to 1280x1024.



To my surprise, the results are very very good. Thought I'd end up returning it to Amazon but now I also want to try the OSSC and the RetroTink just to see how they look.

There are very few parameters to tune and once you get the resolution and scaling right, the image is awesome. Compared to all the TVs I've been using, it looks super clean and crisp. The scanlines are perfect and, as far as I can tell, zero lag. These pictures don't do it any justice, since I can't sync a CRT with a phone camera and the colors aren't accurate too:






It's super hard to track down old 15kHz monitors and having them shipped is a recipe for disaster, so I'm glad to have one more option for the future. (S)VGA monitors are still relatively easy to find.

And from what I've tested, it also works great with the PS1, PS2, NES, SNES and Xbox.

I'm super interested in this. Can you please try Arkanoid and Pinball Dreams and report the perceived latency? Also, can you try laced screen modes, e.g. Shadow of the Beast intro? Oh, and eBay/Amazon/AliExpress link please to the exact model you bought I'm gonna get one, then a few spares if I like it. I have 9 SVGA CRTs here, two A500, two C64C, and shitloads of old PCs...

 

[newtmonkey]

Rincewind
With the custom GBS Control firmware installed (which I am assuming is the case for the device Incognito/STK is using), the lag is extremely low. RetroRGB measured it and found a lag of 4 ms for 240p content and 14 ms for 480i content:



This scaler was pretty poor at first, with variable lag and incorrect handling of 240p, but is now a very decent device, especially for the price imo.

 

[Nutmeg]

Can that thing blank lines for VGA input so I can get some nice single-scanned 240p VGA?

 

[Incognito]

This. I keep collecting old TVs because even with a scan doubler and a VGA monitor the Amiga doesn't look right. Sharp pixels belong to PCs.

Same here. Amiga + scan doubler looks totally wrong; that's making a double-scanning VGA adapter out of your Amiga, serious decline.

I don't even care for that stuff; my WinUAE shader setup that emulates a C= monitor is superior to any scan doubler + real CRT, or these Amiga HDMI solutions which are terrible, IMO.

This thread got me thinking about trying a scaler with the Amiga and an SVGA monitor. People usually want scalers for HDMI, but we can connect them to CRTs too. So I went for a cheapo chinese GBS-control which takes SCART, outputs VGA directly (no need for an HDMI-VGA adapter) and does emulated (?) scanlines. The test monitor is a Samtron that goes up to 1280x1024.

I'm super interested in this. Can you please try Arkanoid and Pinball Dreams and report the perceived latency? Also, can you try laced screen modes, e.g. Shadow of the Beast intro? Oh, and eBay/Amazon/AliExpress link please to the exact model you bought I'm gonna get one, then a few spares if I like it. I have 9 SVGA CRTs here, two A500, two C64C, and shitloads of old PCs...

Here's the exact model from Amazon. The GBS-C fw is actually open source and a huge improvement over the original fw for this hardware devices. See here and here. This chinese model has the 1.6 version of said fw, I belive. I'm at work rn but will try your requests this afternoon. There's a good video posted above. The RetroRGB guy can be a bit snobbish about hardware at times, but his reviews have depth. Cheers.

(edited for clarification)

 

[Incognito]

This. I keep collecting old TVs because even with a scan doubler and a VGA monitor the Amiga doesn't look right. Sharp pixels belong to PCs.

Same here. Amiga + scan doubler looks totally wrong; that's making a double-scanning VGA adapter out of your Amiga, serious decline.

I don't even care for that stuff; my WinUAE shader setup that emulates a C= monitor is superior to any scan doubler + real CRT, or these Amiga HDMI solutions which are terrible, IMO.

This thread got me thinking about trying a scaler with the Amiga and an SVGA monitor. People usually want scalers for HDMI, but we can connect them to CRTs too. So I went for a cheapo chinese GBS-control which takes SCART, outputs VGA directly (no need for an HDMI-VGA adapter) and does emulated (?) scanlines. The test monitor is a Samtron that goes up to 1280x1024.



To my surprise, the results are very very good. Thought I'd end up returning it to Amazon but now I also want to try the OSSC and the RetroTink just to see how they look.

There are very few parameters to tune and once you get the resolution and scaling right, the image is awesome. Compared to all the TVs I've been using, it looks super clean and crisp. The scanlines are perfect and, as far as I can tell, zero lag. These pictures don't do it any justice, since I can't sync a CRT with a phone camera and the colors aren't accurate too:


It's super hard to track down old 15kHz monitors and having them shipped is a recipe for disaster, so I'm glad to have one more option for the future. (S)VGA monitors are still relatively easy to find.

And from what I've tested, it also works great with the PS1, PS2, NES, SNES and Xbox.

I'm super interested in this. Can you please try Arkanoid and Pinball Dreams and report the perceived latency? Also, can you try laced screen modes, e.g. Shadow of the Beast intro? Oh, and eBay/Amazon/AliExpress link please to the exact model you bought I'm gonna get one, then a few spares if I like it. I have 9 SVGA CRTs here, two A500, two C64C, and shitloads of old PCs...

Had a bit more time to play with this thing.

Latency:

Can't feel any latency, but I don't own any measurement hardware, so this is just my gut feeling. Pinball Dreams, which I'm quite familiar with, plays as it should. I looked for inputs or sound fx that felt out of sync and didn't notice any. (The audio output is going directly from the Amiga to the speakers, not passing through the GBS).

While playing I did notice a weird screen tear now and again. Like when the framerate of a gfx card is not in sync with the monitor refresh. It was quite noticeable because Pinball Dreams moves the entire screen up and down very fast. It didn't happen often but luckily can be solved switching a parameter in the configuration of the device. So pay attention to this detail:




Interlaced modes:

Workbench's test screen shows a gfx glitch in some paterns at 640x512.



But that laced screen from Shadow of the Beast displays just fine. The transition between different modes is also seamless.



Overall I'm impressed with this little device. For a price tag of just 60 euros it can't be faulted. For gaming I probably wouldn't prefer this over an actual 15kHz monitor, but for productivity/workbench the VGA monitor flickers a lot less and is a lot easier on the eyes.

 

[Rincewind]

Thanks for taking the time to test all this Incognito/STK, super informative.

I found your variant of the device on AliExpress:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004245320305.html?browser_id=4513c439a18e4da98e209602095ce542&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=unbehdtgacaxyged18b731a2d501250b1f47fd55af&pdp_npi=4@dis!AUD!136.15!136.15!!!85.06!!@2101fb0916984431772794362e7853!12000028645110207!sea!AU!0!AB&algo_pvid=518fa9c6-73dc-464f-801e-df6a086b442d

Plus a cheaper model that uses the same firmware:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005110395565.html?gps-id=platformRecommendH5&scm=1007.18499.332340.0&scm_id=1007.18499.332340.0&scm-url=1007.18499.332340.0&pvid=a44b48da-4625-476e-822e-47a37bdb5129&_t=gps-id:platformRecommendH5,scm-url:1007.18499.332340.0,pvid:a44b48da-4625-476e-822e-47a37bdb5129,tpp_buckets:668#2846#8116#2002&pdp_npi=4@dis!AUD!127.65!90.63!!!79.75!!@2103010e16984433666847679e1bc0!12000031696312494!rec!AU!!AB

There's a slightly more expensive version too which also has A/V and S-Video inputs. Might come in handy for the C64.
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/1005005079018635.html?gps-id=platformRecommendH5&scm=1007.18499.332340.0&scm_id=1007.18499.332340.0&scm-url=1007.18499.332340.0&pvid=1a4bd2e0-5f6c-4516-88bd-6576cd1020af&_t=gps-id:platformRecommendH5,scm-url:1007.18499.332340.0,pvid:1a4bd2e0-5f6c-4516-88bd-6576cd1020af,tpp_buckets:668#2846#8114#1999&pdp_npi=4@dis!AUD!208.35!147.93!!!130.17!!@2101fb0e16984442822773220e84fb!12000031558253544!rec!AU!!AB

Well, now I need to decide which one to get. All seem to use the same improved firmware and support FW upgrades. Of course, the big question is the quality of the analog components and reliability.

 

[deama]

Rincewind

Are there any CRT filters for e.g. MPV video player?

 

[Rincewind]

Rincewind

Are there any CRT filters for e.g. MPV video player?

No idea. But you can use ShaderGlass or similar tools with pretty much anything or ReShade.

 

[deama]

Rincewind

Are there any CRT filters for e.g. MPV video player?

No idea. But you can use ShaderGlass or similar tools with pretty much anything or ReShade.

Yeah but I think shaderGlass doesn't do it well, I think it overlays the filter rather than merging it, e.g. the black scanlines instead of being integrated they overlay, which sort of looses the detail.
Not sure if reshade works with video players?

 

[ds]

mpv can use user-supplied GLSL shaders but seems to use a custom format for the interface so you'd need to adapt the shaders you want to use to that.

 

[Ash]

You see a wise old man named Rincewind. 1) tug at his long white beard. 2) "Hello there sir, you seem to have a bag filled with ancient artifacts. May I see?" [surprise attack] 3) "sup dude what are your top ten 80s games?"

I choose 3.

I already determined you're a bit of a low standards storyfag, unfamiliar with the true glory of the 90s, but I still respect the ancient wisdom and want to know if there are any prestigious 80s games that are must-play. Right now I only feel that way about 1 sole 80s game (of the pool I played) and that the rest can safely be forgotten.

Feel free to tell me to piss off.

 

[Rincewind]

You see a wise old man named Rincewind. 1) tug at his long white beard. 2) "Hello there sir, you seem to have a bag filled with ancient artifacts. May I see?" [surprise attack] 3) "sup dude what are your top ten 80s games?"

I choose 3.

I already determined you're a bit of a low standards storyfag, unfamiliar with the true glory of the 90s, but I still respect the ancient wisdom and want to know if there are any prestigious 80s games that are must-play. Right now I only feel that way about 1 sole 80s game (of the pool I played) and that the rest can safely be forgotten.

Feel free to tell me to piss off.

Follow the links in my signature. Good luck.

 

[Ash]

I wanted your absolute top ten.

 

[Rincewind]

I wanted your absolute top ten.

Frankly, I'm yet to play many classics from the 80s, so I don't think my list would be of any use for you. For instance, I haven't played the Ultima series yet, just to name one of my biggest omissions. Better ask octavius , Zed Duke of Banville or Fowyr.

It's also a nostalgia thing; if you grew up with the C64 and the Amiga, you just love the 1982-1992 period, the glory days of these two computers. Then the PC took over

But just think about it, these are all from the 80s:

- Dungeon Master!!!
- Significant part of the Sierra classic adventure catalog
- Arguably the best text adventures are from the 80s (Scott Adam's adventures, then the whole prestigiuos Magnetic Scrolls and Infocom catalog, and countless others)
- Ultima series, Might & Magic series, Wizardry series, Bard's Tale series, Phantasie series, Starflight series
- Wasteland
- The Dark Heart of Uukrul
- The whole Gold Box series started in the late 80s
- etc.

Generally, if you love 8-bit games, pixel graphics, and abstract early interfaces (not tolerate them, *love* them!), things do downhill from the 90s onwards, generally speaking. As the FPS & Doom craze started, things went downhill very very quickly, and on many fronts. Well, Doom alone is not to blame, but that "infamous" interview with Roberta Williams is the truth—the demographics of computer users changed a lot in the early/mid-90s and suddenly selling dumb games became profitable.

 

[Ash]

One man's incline is another's decline eh.

Please show me some 80s games featuring complex, multi-genre, intelligent or otherwise engaging gameplay. Because I never found them. They're all in the 90s. Including Doom. Prove me wrong. I'd love for there to be a goldmine to discover.

But...given your mention of text adventures, Roberta Williams and whatnot, I don't think gameplay is what we're talking about here.

Looking at some of your entries, how is Wizardry & Dungeon Master not superseded by Ultima Underworld, Eye of the Beholder, Arx Fatalis, System Shock 1 & 2, Wizardry 8, Morrowind, Kings Field, Vagrant Story, Deus Ex etc etc? The endless big dumb decline dungeon crawler or FP RPG games of the 90s and thereafter. It's almost like you just stopped playing new games, perhaps they became too complex for you?

Again, tell me to fuck off anytime lol.

 

[Rincewind]

One man's incline is another's decline eh.

But...given we're talking text adventures and whatnot, I don't think gameplay is what we're talking about here.

Well, I'm talking about general trends. Surely there are a few interesting games from pretty much any year.

As you're bringing up gameplay, I think most of C64 action/platformer games from the 80s are absolute gameplay kings. Like most good puzzle platformers, such as Lode Runner, Nebulus, Rick Dangerous and Prince of Persia (the latter two from 1989). I'd love to include Another World too, but that game is from 1991 (however, it still fits into my 1982-1992 "best decade ever", including its sequel, Flashback). And of course the original text-mode Rogue—it's pure gameplay, man.

Dungeon Master is a gameplay king, of course. And to me so are all the turn based abstract dungeon crawlers. You move on the grid, you map the grid, you engage in battle—gameplay!

I actually do love the "gameplay" of text adventures, yes.

Please show me some 80s games featuring complex, multi-genre, intelligent or otherwise engaging gameplay.

To be clear, I'm not turning this into a pissing contest, and I couldn't care less what you or anybody else plays in their free time. With that out of the way, I'm just curious, which games are you specifically referring to?

Including Doom.

Well, you lost me there. I played it back in the day (a bit late, in 1995 I think), and it was rather "meh" even then. But... De gustibus non est disputandum.

 

[Rincewind]

Ash Friend, you're a bit mistaken. I never said I *only* play games from the 80s—you are kinda assuming that, for some weird reason. I said it's my *favourite decade* for many reasons, including nostalgia, having grown up in the 80s. So if you're like 25-30, you wouldn't understand. But that's fine.

Of course, I do play games from the 90s too and post-2000 games, etc. and I enjoy them. But I'm particularly fond of the whole 80s cultural climate, including computer games.

One "guilty pleasures" of mine is enjoying those FMV games from the 90s that I thought were terrible back then, for instance. And the games you listed from the 90s are very good yeah (I'm a huge EoB fan, for instance). But they're a different breed.

 

[Ash]

Doom is basically a dungeon crawler that sacrifices slow-paced, strategic qualities in favor of fast-paced, skill-based qualities. It still involves a constant usage of the brain in many paradigms nonetheless. Including thinking in proper 3D. Thinking fast, too. No turn-based breathers. Roberta Williams was simply too dim-witted to conceive of gameplay intelligence existing in any other form unless it involved text.

As for which games, I edited my post for a sample. But honestly it's like...200 games for the 90s alone are legendary. Another 200 are run of the mill but good iterations of 80s concepts nonetheless. Was really quite spectacular for gaming. I did do some exploring of the 80s but mostly all the mainstream stuff, so I am aware there is likely a layer of nuance beneath the surface, no matter how primitive :D

Ash Friend, you're a bit mistaken. I never said I *only* play games from the 80s—you are kinda assuming that, for some weird reason. I said it's my *favourite decade* for many reasons, many of those reasons being nostalgic, having grown up in the 80s, so if you're like 25-30, you wouldn't understand. But that's fine.

Of course I play games from 90s too and post-2000 games, and I enjoy them. But I'm particularly fond of the whole 80s cultural climate, including computer games.

nah no backpedalling. You said dumb games was all the profitable rage on PC in the 90s. If there happens to be tons of prestigious 80s games by comparison that could be true, but you're talking about text adventures...

Anyway...I'm being abrasive and I apologize. I dont truly know the 80s and what you lived through. You enjoy what you enjoy.

 

[Rincewind]

nah no backpedalling. You said dumb games was all the profitable rage on PC in the 90s.

And it was yeah. Doom is still a dumb game to me. Compare EoB to Doom—come on, who would even do that... The early 90s are still fine, then shit goes downhill from about 1994 onwards. The adventure genre basically dies. Everybody and their dog make their own dumb Doom clone and they manage to make it even dumber. Et cetera. RTS appears, and I can't say I'm in love with those games either.

Yeah, there's Discworld, there's Azrael's Tear, etc. and those are glorious games. But the *genre* is almost dead. I'm talking about trends, remember? There were some true gems during the decline period of the mid-90s, for sure. And to be fair, peak "modern DOS gaming" was 1993-1995 or so, before Windows 95 basically killed it off. But that was a heavy decline period for the Amiga already, and let's forget about the C64. So yeah, it depends on what you're focusing on...

But yeah, profit was absolutely in dumb games for the masses. Most of the games you cited are really good games, but many of them were commercial failures (e.g., System Shock was an absolute failure, and I think Ultima Underworld had a lacklustre reception too). Those good games from the 90s were already on the tail end of the bell curve, man.

If you read the intro texts of my "Games worth playing" series, I said the same things in more detail about 2 years ago for the 1993-1994 period.

 

[Rincewind]

If there happens to be tons of prestigious 80s games by comparison that could be true, but you're talking about text adventures...

Anyway...I'm being abrasive and I apologize. I dont truly know the 80s and what you lived through. You enjoy what you enjoy.

Well no need, I'm not upset. But read that list of mine again, only one of the bullet points is about text adventures. I appreciate enjoying 80s games can be a bit of an acquired taste for people who did not grow up with C64s and ZX Spectrums hooked up to TV sets and casette decks like me Nobody could believe their eyes (and ears!) when the Amiga 500 appeared, as if teleported back to us from the future or some technologically advanced alien dimension!

I wish you patience to explore the 80s gaming catalog and find some true gems you really like.

 

[Ash]

nah no backpedalling. You said dumb games was all the profitable rage on PC in the 90s.

The early 90s are still fine, then shit goes downhill from about 1994 onwards. The adventure genre basically dies. Everybody and their dog makes their own dumb Doom clone and they manage to make it even dumber. Et cetera. RTS appears, and I can't say I'm love with those games either..

Good riddance. The gameplay is utterly barebones, for ancient peoples that can't process more than one task or variable at a time lol. Adventure elements were absorbed fully by RPGs in particular at this point and so became redundant in my eyes. But also absorbed by action games too.

Yeah very little love for the RTS over here too though.

 

[Rincewind]

Good riddance. The gameplay is barebones, for people that can't process more than one task or variable at a time lol.

That might have something to do with it, could be a constitutional thing too. Most FPS games give me bad motion sickness, I even had to lie down every 20-30 minutes when playing Doom at 15. RTS games and real-time games generally just stress the fuck out of me, it's not enjoyable to me to play them. The exception are slower paced puzzle platformers where I have time to think and/or repeat the same action many times to practice it, effectively.

3rd person games are fine though, and I love Gothic, for instance.

But I never liked sports either for the same reason—I'm a coder type, and I like puzzles.

 

[Lemming42]

how is Wizardry & Dungeon Master not superseded by Ultima Underworld, Eye of the Beholder,

Dungeon Master is better than Eye of the Beholder in a few ways, including some minor stuff like being able to crush enemies in doors.

Not a massive fan of most 80s games myself, but of Rincewind's suggestions, I'd fully agree with Wasteland, Dark Heart of Uukrul, and Starflight.

I'd also mention Castle Wolfenstein, which I think is a much more interesting game than Wolfenstein 3D. Gauntlet is another good game, with about fifty thousand re-releases.

Also, it's not a popular opinion here, but the Gold Box games as a whole aren't that impressive. PoR is a game about walking up to things and hitting them while your clerics/mages spam the usual shit. The combat is really simplistic and gets very tedious very quickly because it's so basic, yet there's so fucking much of it that you never get a break from it. It's not even difficult, which is the worst part, it becomes mindless pretty early on and you just autopilot your way through every single battle. And your only reward is more gold than you can physically hold, which doesn't matter because the whole economy is busted. Replayed it very recently and couldn't be bothered finishing it, virtually every turn-based RPG released since has far more engaging and complex combat. Scorpia was right about it (as usual) back in the day when she called it a patience-testing slicer-dicer or whatever.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I wanted your absolute top ten.

Frankly, I'm yet to play many classics from the 80s, so I don't think my list would be of any use for you. For instance, I haven't played the Ultimate series yet, just to name one of my biggest omissions. Better ask octavius , Zed Duke of Banville or Fowyr.

On the topic of '80s computer games, it's worth noting that the golden age of Amiga-original games was really the five-year span of 1989 through 1993, since that scene took far longer to get going than should have been the case. It does encompass virtually the entire 8-bit era, since even Commodore 64 sales had cratered by the end of the decade, with SimCity in 1989 probably being the last notable game designed for the C64.

Back when someone was posting threads in General Gaming about the best games in each year, I ended up creating my own lists for the span of 1989-1997, but I never expanded beyond that. Looking just at 1989:

• Curse of the Azure Bonds (C64)
• SimCity (C64)
• Blood Money (Amiga)
• Bloodwych (Amiga)
• Drakkhen (Amiga)
• The Duel: Test Drive II (Amiga)
• Lords of the Rising Sun (Amiga)
• Populous (Amiga)
• Shadow of the Beast (Amiga)
• Chaos Strikes Back (Atari ST)
• Midwinter (Atari ST)
• The Dark Heart of Uukrul (PC)
• Quest for Glory (PC)
• Starflight II (PC)
• Sword of Aragon (PC)
• Castlevania III: Dracula’s Curse (Famicom/NES)
• Golden Axe (Megadrive/Genesis)
• Phantasy Star II (Megadrive/Genesis)
• Final Fight (arcade)

Naturally, some of these games are far more complex than others. Chaos Strikes Back is a more challenging, non-linear version of Dungeon Master, which is still the best game in the 'real-time blobber' RPG subgenre it created. Populous is a great game, establishing its own genre, though arguably inferior to the sequel released two years later. SimCity is a classic that established its own genre (I'd recommend the Amiga version; several were released near simultaneously, due to the prolonged process that preceded the game's publication). Curse of the Azure Bonds is the second Gold Box game, though inferior to its predecessor Pool of Radiance. Midwinter is an ambitious Open World 3D game that defies genres. Quest for Glory is the first in a beloved series of RPG/adventure hybrids. Starflight II is the second in a pair of highly-regarded SF space exploration games. Sword of Aragon is an early example of a strategy game with RPG elements. Phantasy Star II is arguably the first game in the JRPG subgenre, for better or worse.