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Retardo? A study on gameplay patterns in open world RPGs

Cervby

Literate
Joined
May 4, 2018
Messages
14
If you want to see whether the program does anything malicious you can see the source code here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ve28X28HktzaimJUMFi6FBlaWw6MLzVZ
It's made for AutoHotKey v2.0.

The participant can choose whether they want to use the 1-7 keys or the F1-F7 keys.

The purpose of the study is to find whether there are exists certain patterns of gameplay which players in general tend to like or dislike. By having a large number of people log what type of action they are doing while playing a play-session, I may find common patterns on what people like. For example, perhaps it's found that people tend to like a lot of interactivity, but only if it's unevenly sparsed, it's them shown people doesn't like evenly sparsed interactivity as much. Another example to be found could be that people like games whith a lot of walking to places, but only if more than 40% of the game is cutscenes. Or maybe for example, by seeing people being usatisfied playing the following pattern: 2 minutes high interaction, then 1 minute cutscene, then 1 player choice, and repeat, if such was found then it would with that then be advised for games to not be made with such a pattern. The goal is that by finding patterns like these that it would help game designers and level designers to figure out how to best make their games.

The program contains a number questions which the participant answers after having finished their play-session. For example whether they enjoyed their play-session, did they think their play-session was challegning, did they feel their play-session was immersive, did they feel competent while playing, etc. That would tell me what they thought of their play-session, and by comparing all the various play-session I could find whether there are certain patterns in their play-sessions which are commonly liked or disliked.

What kind of university allows you to enroll people in a study without asking them to sign a release form? Even if you’re only having participants fill out a survey you need them to sign a release. This is basic academic ethics. Does your thesis advisor know that you aren’t getting release forms?

This is either a very dim student or a mildly clever scammer.

I've not heard anything of release forms from my supervisor, and I've kept him up to date on what I'm doing. The only thing I recall having been informed of is that any personally identifiable information must be deleted upon request, and the data I collect isn't personally identifiable anyway. I've sent a message to him now though about release forms. It could be a matter of different countires doing things different ways.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
E.g. in a US university, such a study would have to go through IRB (although the rules can be overenthusiastic, requiring you to fill out 800 forms just to talk to somebody), but it's very well known within academia that the practical standards for this vary widely across countries. Sometimes, when it's an undergrad project which very clearly isn't going to harm anybody...
 

Urthor

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2015
Messages
1,879
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Seems like you've got pretty large errors in methodology when you are relying on users to remember to hit the buttons. Your results are probably going to be so skewed towards the actions where users remember to actually hit the buttons that they will be effectively worthless for measuring what they are actually doing, rather than what they hit the button to show they are doing.


Better choice is to actually get the telemetry data game developers actually scrape from their AAA games that show these exact things then analyse that.

Or better yet, put in a hook for when the combat music plays and analyse that "variation in the amount of time spent in combat across as number of titles" and then just ask your users to do a playthrough with a mod that maps the amount of time the combat music is playing. Then you can compare which titles have proportionally more time spent in combat.
 

Cervby

Literate
Joined
May 4, 2018
Messages
14
Seems like you've got pretty large errors in methodology when you are relying on users to remember to hit the buttons. Your results are probably going to be so skewed towards the actions where users remember to actually hit the buttons that they will be effectively worthless for measuring what they are actually doing, rather than what they hit the button to show they are doing.


Better choice is to actually get the telemetry data game developers actually scrape from their AAA games that show these exact things then analyse that.

Or better yet, put in a hook for when the combat music plays and analyse that "variation in the amount of time spent in combat across as number of titles" and then just ask your users to do a playthrough with a mod that maps the amount of time the combat music is playing. Then you can compare which titles have proportionally more time spent in combat.

The program/script includes an overlay which is displayed over the game which shows which key corresponds to which type, so you can always see which key to press. At the bottom of the screen there is a bar which displays "F1 Non-Objective · F2 Objective · F3 Interact · F4 Decision · F5 Consumption · F6 What? · F7 External", and the one selected lights up in green. You may occacionally make mistakes, but from tests I made with a couple of friends, pressing the right key when relevent went well almost every time.

Do you mean I should take telemetry data that are publicly available for the games, or do you mean I should ask the developers for telemetry data, or do you mean I should myself collect telemtry for the games? For the first one I would have to be lucky for there to be telemtry available by the developers, and for it to also be useful to what I'm doing. For the second one, I don't think the developers would want to give me telemetry data just because I asked them. Finally, as for collecting telemetry data myself, which your music example is a type of (as I understand telemtry), I have considered collecting telemtry before, but felt that it would be inadiquate for what I want. I want to preferably know what the players consider themselves to be doing, and not just what I can see them doing. For example, the player may be making a decision about what to do, but not through a in-game presented decision, it could be about deciding in which direction to go, so I wouldn't then know they're making a decision. Or it could for example be that they're presented with choices but don't actaully make decision and instead chooses one randomly. There's nothing ingame, game mechanics and such, that can let me know that. I also can't easily know, if I'm using my gameplay types, for example whether a player is randomly exlporing (non-objective) or if they're following a quest (objective). Another factor is while I might be able to do it with the music for combat, I don't want the amount of combat to be the only data I collect, I want data about the other aspects of gameplay as well and compare them, as I don't think I'd get any useful data otherwise. If I want to categorize every action a player does into one of my gameplay types, I would need triggers for almost every action a player makes eg. I'd need a trigger for combat, a trigger for picking up an item, a trigger for a cutscene, a trigger for loading screens, a trigger for opening the escape menu, a trigger for dialog, a trigger for opening doors, etc. And I would also do that for multiple games, which I think probably would be difficult to do within a viable timeframe, although I haven't looked into it. Also the combat music thing might not always work, as just because there's an enemy nearby doesn't mean you're currently fighting it, you may be able to ignore the enemy if it's not super close, or another scenario is that you ride your horse past the enemy and ignore it.
 

Cervby

Literate
Joined
May 4, 2018
Messages
14
Seems like you've got pretty large errors in methodology when you are relying on users to remember to hit the buttons. Your results are probably going to be so skewed towards the actions where users remember to actually hit the buttons that they will be effectively worthless for measuring what they are actually doing, rather than what they hit the button to show they are doing.


Better choice is to actually get the telemetry data game developers actually scrape from their AAA games that show these exact things then analyse that.

Or better yet, put in a hook for when the combat music plays and analyse that "variation in the amount of time spent in combat across as number of titles" and then just ask your users to do a playthrough with a mod that maps the amount of time the combat music is playing. Then you can compare which titles have proportionally more time spent in combat.

The program/script includes an overlay which is displayed over the game which shows which key corresponds to which type, so you can always see which key to press. At the bottom of the screen there is a bar which displays "F1 Non-Objective · F2 Objective · F3 Interact · F4 Decision · F5 Consumption · F6 What? · F7 External", and the one selected lights up in green. You may occacionally make mistakes, but from tests I made with a couple of friends, pressing the right key when relevent went well almost every time.

Do you mean I should take telemetry data that are publicly available for the games, or do you mean I should ask the developers for telemetry data, or do you mean I should myself collect telemtry for the games? For the first one I would have to be lucky for there to be telemtry available by the developers, and for it to also be useful to what I'm doing. For the second one, I don't think the developers would want to give me telemetry data just because I asked them. Finally, as for collecting telemetry data myself, which your music example is a type of (as I understand telemtry), I have considered collecting telemtry before, but felt that it would be inadiquate for what I want. I want to preferably know what the players consider themselves to be doing, and not just what I can see them doing. For example, the player may be making a decision about what to do, but not through a in-game presented decision, it could be about deciding in which direction to go, so I wouldn't then know they're making a decision. Or it could for example be that they're presented with choices but don't actaully make decision and instead chooses one randomly. There's nothing ingame, game mechanics and such, that can let me know that. I also can't easily know, if I'm using my gameplay types, for example whether a player is randomly exlporing (non-objective) or if they're following a quest (objective). Another factor is while I might be able to do it with the music for combat, I don't want the amount of combat to be the only data I collect, I want data about the other aspects of gameplay as well and compare them, as I don't think I'd get any useful data otherwise. If I want to categorize every action a player does into one of my gameplay types, I would need triggers for almost every action a player makes eg. I'd need a trigger for combat, a trigger for picking up an item, a trigger for a cutscene, a trigger for loading screens, a trigger for opening the escape menu, a trigger for dialog, a trigger for opening doors, etc. And I would also do that for multiple games, which I think probably would be difficult to do within a viable timeframe, although I haven't looked into it. Also the combat music thing might not always work, as just because there's an enemy nearby doesn't mean you're currently fighting it, you may be able to ignore the enemy if it's not super close, or another scenario is that you ride your horse past the enemy and ignore it.

Wait, you meant the player forgetting to hit the button, not the player hitting the wrong button. That is certainly a risk, so I'd prefer if the players first practiced using the program/script (pressing F12 resets the recorded keys), which I've mentioned in the instrcutions inside the program/script. It could be likely that players sometimes would forget to press the key for what they are doing. Something that could possibly be a solution to that can be that because one of the questions the program asks after the play-session is how difficult it was to use the program/script. If the data from those who answered that it was hard to use the program/script is very very different from the ones who answered that it wasn't hard to use the program/script, then it may be worth to disregard the ones who thought it was difficult to use. This I think is the best method for what I want, it may not be perfect, but I think it may work well enough for getting useful data.
 

makchanka

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 21, 2017
Messages
244
OK so I've completed it, but I ran into a problem at the end where it asks me to confirm my identity. I was able to enter all of my credit card information, but I couldn't enter anything when it asked me for a social security number because I'm a Mexican, and, therefore, illegal. Will you take any other forms of ID?
 

Citizen

Guest
What about already recorded video LPs of these games? Download millions of hours of video of autists playing walking sims, then process it. (for example a script can count the amount of time a dialogue box or inventory were on screen by searching for a specific pixels in frame)
Or you can do it manually, just play the video at 4x speed and mash your f1-f7 buttons you 'gaming degree' monkey.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
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Messages
34,384
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
This is why game design studies are useless and you're better off studying something like history and then going into game design with a fresh mind not ruined by the shit they push on you in game design university.
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

Guest
Anyone actually tried the program? Did it do anything to your PC?

GREETINGS JACOB. IT IS I, GENERIC-GIANT-SPIDER OF RPG CODEX.

THE PROGRAM HAS NOT AT ALL REPLACED THE USER'S INPUT WITH SOULLESS DRONING ON.

PLEASE DOWNLOAD THIS PROGRAM AND HELP US ACHIEVE INCLINE FOR THE WORLD.

FOR FURTHER QUESTIONS PLEASE SEND CONCERNS TO SKYNETPROJECT@CYBERDYNE-SYSTEMS.COM

THANK YOU, HUMAN.
 

MasPingon

Arcane
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
1,919
Location
Castle Rock
Op is like:
522b6c04e691b209f948b81f_736.jpg


i-have-no-idea-what-i-amp-039-m-doing_o_1737525.jpg
images
6386ec8a6cd01fcf89d18958a850f217.jpg
i-have-no-idea-what-Im-doing-meme-23.jpg
 
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NotAGolfer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
2,527
Location
Land of Bier and Bratwurst
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Okay, let me see if I got this straight...
So I was on my way over to that bandit hideout (F6, then F2 after a second because I just highlighted that bounty hunt quest and am now following the quest marker), when I discovered some beautiful little pond (F5) and stared at it for a few seconds (F1). But then that fugly huge spider jumped me (F7) and I had to kill it (F3).
All of this took a few minutes max. And you want me to identify all of these 'actions' and always press the corresponding keys at the right moment while I keep playing the game?
But I'm still expected to enjoy the game because that's what you want to capture afterall, enjoyment vs player actions.

Yeah, I hate to break it to you but something in this equation doesn't add up.

Also how do you get the information how long an 'action' took? Because you can't expect people to always press the keys in the exact moment they are in a new state of mind, especially not with the game distracting them and all. ^^
 
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Urthor

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2015
Messages
1,879
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Honestly I'm SUPER annoyed his supervisor said yes to his methodology more than anything. You can do actually great data mining with some really simple hooks on say game music, number of deaths at what point in the playtime, easy stuff like that. All you have to do is get someone to write a very simple script and possibly use a memory scanner like cheat engine to extract the playtime variable.

Percentage of overall deaths in the first few hours of different games showing difficulty curve, percentage of combats that lead to death, all sorts of good stuff, and if you did a paper like that it's honestly such decent real world research actual people would probably read your undergraduate paper.

Also not providing source code tsk tsk.
 

Cervby

Literate
Joined
May 4, 2018
Messages
14
OP what prompted you to ask the codex of all places for this kind of... study?

I figured I'd get more responses if I asked for particpants in online forums. The games I've chosen are RPGs, and rpgcodex discusses RPGs, so I figured it could be a good choice.

Lets see some credentials. Like a photo of your student ID.

Alright, I can accept doing that.
I think this is my current student card, I'm uncertain it is my current one because even though I use it to open doors at the university, the expiry date already has been expired. Though I could have remembered wrong about which one I'm currently using, as it's not often I have to use it as most doors are open during daytime and anyone can just waltz in.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/158pWnLPe5RcgicINJkEphV1CKJ-yMZf_
Here's my other student card, this one doesn't need to show any credentials as you just hold the card against the thingy to confirm who it is.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Azu-XZpDituFHWKuozFEiuvADJKshmJ5

OK so I've completed it, but I ran into a problem at the end where it asks me to confirm my identity. I was able to enter all of my credit card information, but I couldn't enter anything when it asked me for a social security number because I'm a Mexican, and, therefore, illegal. Will you take any other forms of ID?

No, the program/script doesn't ask for any personal information such as identity or credit card information.

What about already recorded video LPs of these games? Download millions of hours of video of autists playing walking sims, then process it. (for example a script can count the amount of time a dialogue box or inventory were on screen by searching for a specific pixels in frame)
Or you can do it manually, just play the video at 4x speed and mash your f1-f7 buttons you 'gaming degree' monkey.

I've already explained in #24 why I think using Let's Plays would be a worse idea.

Okay, let me see if I got this straight...
So I was on my way over to that bandit hideout (F6, then F2 after a second because I just highlighted that bounty hunt quest and am now following the quest marker), when I discovered some beautiful little pond (F5) and stared at it for a few seconds (F1). But then that fugly huge spider jumped me (F7) and I had to kill it (F3).
All of this took a few minutes max. And you want me to identify all of these 'actions' and always press the corresponding keys at the right moment while I keep playing the game?
But I'm still expected to enjoy the game because that's what you want to capture afterall, enjoyment vs player actions.

Yeah, I hate to break it to you but something in this equation doesn't add up.

Also how do you get the information how long an 'action' took? Because you can't expect people to always press the keys in the exact moment they are in a new state of mind, especially not with the game distracting them and all. ^^

I guess my instuctions in the program/script wasn't as clear as I thought.

I wouldn't consider discovering a pond to qualify for the consumption type. Consumption is for when the game actively engages with the player without the player interacting with the game. First of the player interacts with the game when discovering the pond, and secondly I wouldn't consider the game to be actively engaging with the player if the pond is just sitting there. I guess I could sort of see how you'd see it that way though, as you could see it as the game giving you something new to look at. It would have been enough to just presss F1.

The external type (F7) is for things outside the game, such as stopping and wondering what to have for dinner. A huge spider jumping on you is definitely something inside the game. So just pressing F3 would have been enough.

The F6 when heading to the bandit hideout, you might have done correctly, but by the sound of it I don't think you did. The "What?" (F6) type is for when you don't know what's going on or what you're supposed to do, but I'm guessing you knew what was going on, and you chose to go to the bandit hideout, in which case it qualifies as the "decision" (F4) type. From what I understand I think you didn't actually make the decision then (though I could be wrong), and you had already decided before that point to go the bandit hideout, and what you was doing was just marking it on the map or selected which quest to follow, in which case just pressing F2 could have been enough.

About how long an action takes, I missed writing in the instructions that you can press the key for currently selected type to deselect it. So if you for example if you have just killed the huge spider, and you're not sure what type what you're currently doing qualifies as, you can press F3 again to deselect the interact type. So after you have killed the huge spider, then you are not in combat so it shouldn't be selected (unless you're immedietly doing something else that fits the "interact" type). The time when no type is selected is measured as well.
 
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Cervby

Literate
Joined
May 4, 2018
Messages
14
Honestly I'm SUPER annoyed his supervisor said yes to his methodology more than anything. You can do actually great data mining with some really simple hooks on say game music, number of deaths at what point in the playtime, easy stuff like that. All you have to do is get someone to write a very simple script and possibly use a memory scanner like cheat engine to extract the playtime variable.

Percentage of overall deaths in the first few hours of different games showing difficulty curve, percentage of combats that lead to death, all sorts of good stuff, and if you did a paper like that it's honestly such decent real world research actual people would probably read your undergraduate paper.

Also not providing source code tsk tsk.

You might not think that the data I collect could be useful, but I think that if I can actually find some interesting patterns of gameplay, that hints at certain patterns working better or worse than others, then it could be useful to game developers. You'd want your game to be as enjoyable as possible, and if there are certain gameplay patterns people doesn't like, then it could be advised for game developers to avoid using that gameplay pattern. If no useful patterns are found in the end, then yeah, the research wouldn't be very useful in real life.

I have already provided source code in #13, though I didn't consider the importance of doing that in my first original post.
Source code: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ve28X28HktzaimJUMFi6FBlaWw6MLzVZ
 

NotAGolfer

Arcane
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Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
2,527
Location
Land of Bier and Bratwurst
Divinity: Original Sin 2
I guess my instuctions in the program/script wasn't as clear as I thought.
Umm I never said I even tried it. I used the definitions you gave itt, nothing more. Good on you if you made it more clear in the instructions.

You didn't address my main concern though. Adding this layer of complexity on top of playing the game itself takes away a lot from the player's enjoyment of said game. They can't really dive in and immerse themselves in the experience, because you always pull them back out. So I don't think that this is gonna be a good way to measure enjoyment. It might also create unwanted artifacts, like if participants enjoy playing lab rat for you which has nothing to do with the game and its qualities.

Otoh adding additional QTEs to the game would probably help a lot to make at least Skyrim less boring. So carry on with this noble endeavour.
:greatjob:
 
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Citizen

Guest
Honestly I'm SUPER annoyed his supervisor said yes to his methodology more than anything. You can do actually great data mining with some really simple hooks on say game music, number of deaths at what point in the playtime, easy stuff like that. All you have to do is get someone to write a very simple script and possibly use a memory scanner like cheat engine to extract the playtime variable.

Percentage of overall deaths in the first few hours of different games showing difficulty curve, percentage of combats that lead to death, all sorts of good stuff, and if you did a paper like that it's honestly such decent real world research actual people would probably read your undergraduate paper.

Also not providing source code tsk tsk.

You might not think that the data I collect could be useful, but I think that if I can actually find some interesting patterns of gameplay, that hints at certain patterns working better or worse than others, then it could be useful to game developers. You'd want your game to be as enjoyable as possible, and if there are certain gameplay patterns people doesn't like, then it could be advised for game developers to avoid using that gameplay pattern. If no useful patterns are found in the end, then yeah, the research wouldn't be very useful in real life.

I have already provided source code in #13, though I didn't consider the importance of doing that in my first original post.
Source code: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ve28X28HktzaimJUMFi6FBlaWw6MLzVZ

How can you make more enjoyable games by studying the following:
The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim, The Witcher 3, or Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor

Why should anyone help you to spread decline?
 

NotAGolfer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
2,527
Location
Land of Bier and Bratwurst
Divinity: Original Sin 2
How can you make more enjoyable games by studying the following:
The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim, The Witcher 3, or Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor

Why should anyone help you to spread decline?
It doesn't even matter which games he uses. The approach itself completely goes against the Codex consensus on what makes a good game developer:
A clear vision of the game they want to make and the skill and endurance to pull it off. And if it was a good idea then it might result in a good game.
There is no science involved in this and this whole "data mine players to find better crack to hook them up with" approach reeks of EA, Ubisoft and other agents of decline.
We believe in creative people with visions here, people who love games and want to create something that they themselves would also love to play. Primarily thinking about what the audience might like is what publishers do and what always led and will always lead to :decline:
 
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Theldaran

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
1,772
Phishing is better, sending you a fake Apple invoice informing you that someone has bought a $750 iPhone with your money, even if you know there's no actual credit card linked to your Apple profile, it's scary.
 

Cervby

Literate
Joined
May 4, 2018
Messages
14
I guess my instuctions in the program/script wasn't as clear as I thought.
Umm I never said I even tried it. I used the definitions you gave itt, nothing more. Good on you if you made it more clear in the instructions.

You didn't address my main concern though. Adding this layer of complexity on top of playing the game itself takes away a lot from the player's enjoyment of said game. They can't really dive in and immerse themselves in the experience, because you always pull them back out. So I don't think that this is gonna be a good way to measure enjoyment. It might also create unwanted artifacts, like if participants enjoy playing lab rat for you which has nothing to do with the game and its qualities.

Otoh adding additional QTEs to the game would probably help a lot to make at least Skyrim less boring. So carry on with this noble endeavour.
:greatjob:

You do have a point that it could be a bit harder for the player to get immersed while using the program. It's my hope though that people would get used to it after using it for a little while, and that they then would be used to it enough that it doesn't break them out of the experience. I hadn't thought about that players may find additional enjoyment just for being participants though, that's a good point.

How can you make more enjoyable games by studying the following:
The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim, The Witcher 3, or Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor

Why should anyone help you to spread decline?
It doesn't even matter which games he uses. The approach itself completely goes against the Codex consensus on what makes a good game developer:
A clear vision of the game they want to make and the skill and endurance to pull it off. And if it was a good idea then it might result in a good game.
There is no science involved in this and this whole "data mine players to find better crack to hook them up with" approach reeks of EA, Ubisoft and other agents of decline.
We believe in creative people with visions here, people who love games and want to create something that they themselves would also love to play. Primarily thinking about what the audience might like is what publishers do and what always led and will always lead to :decline:

Good design can make games better, eg. if you want to have a good control scheme and you have the '1' key to go right, the 'm' key to go left, the 'delete' key to go backwards, the 'ctrl' key to go forward, then that would probably not be a good control scheme if you want to make the game to be easy to control. This example might be a bit extreme, but some games have pretty awkward and hard to use control schemes. The developer could change the control scheme to eg. 'w', 'a', 's', 'd' or the arrow keys and still make the game mainly by a clear vision and hard work. Doing that change is a design change that could make the more enjoyable to play. I would say the same could potentially be done with the result from my study. Just because a developer is taking concern about the good or bad patterns of gameplay from my study, doesn't have to mean they have to sacrifce their clear vision and hard work. It doesn't have to mean drastically changing the game according to the gameplay patterns, it could instead be smaller changes to make the game a bit more enjoyable, and still keep most things according to their vision.
 

NotAGolfer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
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Location
Land of Bier and Bratwurst
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Fair enough, and good luck with this.

Would be cool if you could outline some of the findings here afterwards, I'm a little curious what informations you will be able to extract from the raw data and how that translates into possible game design changes besides obvious stuff like "more active player involvement = more fun".
 
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deama

Prophet
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
5,025
Location
UK
What is your consensus on mods? If I try to play skyrim with some mods and use your program, will it be alright for the study or does it have to be vanilla?

Also, idk, I don't really wanna play witcher 3 (cause I hate it) or skyrim (cause I kinda hate it) or shadow of mordor (cause 1 playthrough of that stuffed me). Can I use your program on something like morrowind?
 

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