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A problem with RPGs: RPG developers are not well-read in myth and fantasy/sci-fi literature

RaggleFraggle

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Why don't they still write about high adventure then?
You sure you aren't succumbing to confirmation bias? There seems to be loads of men writing adventure fiction, but the Western publishing industry is so biased that you don't hear about it outside of East Asian cartoons/comics. Not to mention, the media bias and internet distraction has discouraged a lot of men from reading and writing. Without the financial and marketing support of a publisher, it is much harder for writers to break through.
 

Necrensha

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High adventure is absolutely alive in the manga industry... now if only they could finish a single thing instead of indefinitely going until things get boring cause they didn't plan this far ahead and then get canceled without an actual ending, that would be awesome.
 

Louis_Cypher

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There seems to be loads of men writing adventure fiction

That wasn't the proposition. The proposition was that pulp authors might have been gay. It's presumptive to assume someone was gay based on the flimsy evidence of them being comfortable with describing the male body in prose. You could argue, from the exact opposite evidence, the same proposition, that they don't have athletic males in their fiction because they were uncomfortable with the male body so "overcompensating". It's completely unfalsifiable, like most leftist rhetoric. X: "You're a racist!" Y: "No I'm not!" X: "The fact that you deny it confirms it!" When making a historical claim, academics should present a substantive piece of evidence.

 
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Iucounu

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Could it be that masculine writers were actually closet gays/transsexuals in denial, trying to overcompensate by writing masculine novels? But since the last couple of decades they no longer feel the need to hide and pretend anymore.
Why don't they still write about high adventure then?
You mean high adventure from a homosexual perspective? Isn't that what current day games are all about (Bioware et al)? It doesn't explain why today's writing is so bad though, unless maybe the writers no longer feel the inspiration, after indulging in excessive real life faggotry.

To be honest man, it sounds like you are falling for a 20th century liberal trope. Which we have all been guilty of at one point or another, as we all get peddled this Freudian stuff by school and media. Some 1960s subversive tropes may have truth, but most, we now know, were invented by the same biased and often lying psychologists and academics that love to 'deconstruct' fiction other, better, people made, and pour scorn on their ideals. Such as how Margaret Mead has been discredited, having mis-represented Samoan society, despite being an ideological pillar of sexual revolution. The death of male friendship, as every positive impulse becomes homosexual, etc, is a programme.

Society has become more effeminate. More people identify as sexual minorities. To an absurd degree among Generation Z, in some polls (probably because it gives social standing to people with no other 'oppression points' to cash in), that would mean the end of Western reproduction. You would have to launch a decade-long study, that nobody wants to fund, due to it's uncomfortable implications, into why. Here is a suggestion: Hormones are not one-way. Neuroplasticity means the actions we do with our lives, effect the shape of the brain, and expression in the endocrine system. We have encouraged effeminised behavior such as valuing non-confrontational solutions like retreating from bullies, over truth or bravery. We have allowed women to become the primary educators of boys, depriving them of positive figures. Without masculine initiation rituals, men never develop appreciation for the transition into adulthood. Without healthy forms of competition, men don't develop as much testosterone and physical confidence. Lack of testosterone also results in higher cancer rates, as it is a molecule essential to health in men. Pagan societies, before Christianity, had critical words for effeminacy in society, such as 'knaidos' or 'argr/ergi'. In addition, there are potential chemical causes, such as the presence of microplastics, containing hormone-disruptors, as another potential explaination.

So were any pulp authors gay? It's possible. It's also possible none were. It's possible the question is a modern over-obsession with minority sexuality. I don't personally think there were that many closeted gays everywhere in pre-20th century society. There are people who would go further, on the Christian side of things, who would say that homosexuality is initiatory, and is transmitted by abuse. Someone gets raped in the ass, and involuntarily has an erection, so grows up doubting themselves; their endocrine system feeds back and further effeminises them. That would constitute a terrible twisting of a life, and we shouldn't joke about it. Anyway we are diverging from the topic.
No, I agree with most of the above. But I've known such people in real life, so I know they can exist (or existed in older generations).
 

Iucounu

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The proposition was that closeted gays were everywhere before the 1960s sexual revolution, that closet gays wrote stories about barbarians, surrounded by naked women, because they fancied muscled men
No, I was speculating about some of the pulp writers we discussed here (I know nothing about their personal lives), and only before the last 20 years or so.

I did know one closet gay that put pictures of nude women on his walls, another one admitted becoming a gangster to impress other gangsters...
 

Louis_Cypher

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It doesn't explain why today's writing is so bad though
I think that there are a set of eternal natural laws, in the universe, like the laws of physics, but more specific in application to a species, dealing with human flourishing. Like, say, a tribe that seeks to triumph in battle must cultivate a certain degree of bravery, though not to the point of foolhardiness, and will never likely win by cultivating personal cowardice. So the eternal law is revealed through the fire of selection pressure. This natural law gets inscribed onto us, in our genes, because we are selected against physical realities constantly. Good art is honest and truthful in some sense. Verisimilitude. Perhaps the reason modern writers can't write, is simply they can no longer be as honest, about a whole range of issues that have become idols in present society. They must gaslight themselves.
 

Iucounu

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I've always found the 'this' or 'that' is a phallic symbol of the Freudian school of thinking amusing. It's so hard (heh) for anything to not be a phallic symbol that is, frankly, ridiculous. I love horror movies and it has been stated in various books and essays how the Final Girl reclaims a male kind of power from the killer when she takes a weapon, a phallic symbol, for herself (ofttimes the killer's own) and empowered with that weapon she kills her tormentor (especially relevant if it was the killer's own weapon since in that case the Final Girl takes down the killer with 'his own cock', so Freudian!), all this academic theory is mocked in the very meta movie Behind the Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon.

But, again, exactly how a weapon can not be a penis? Anything with a handle is a cock, a machete? A cock. A pistol? A cock. Could even a killer's weapon be evocative of a vagina? The only kind of weapon that I think could evoke that imagery would be garden shears, which could be argued to resemble a pair of legs that can potentially castrate a male victim and even then, I have no doubt, there would be someone that would say "nay, the garden shears are also cocks, two crossed cocks!". It can get quite silly.
On a related note, don't some cultures eat various body parts of defeated enemies (not necessarily their cocks) to gain their strenght? So the phallic part might be irrelevant or secondary.
 

octavius

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Hannes Bok was gay. He was mainly an illustrator with a unique style, but he also wrote A. Merrit pastiches. I haven't read any of his stories, so I don't know if he wrote differently.
Emil Pataja too. I think he was Bok's boyfriend, but I can't recall any stories he wrote.

They are the closest I can think of as "gay pulp writers".

Maybe Carl Jacobi? He never married, AFAIK. And he was not an adventurous type; all his exotic stories were based on factual stuff he'd read or heard from sailors who had been to the exotic locales.

EDIT: R. H. Barlow, who colleborated and corresponded with Lovecraft, was also gay. In fact it drove him to suicide.
 
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gurugeorge

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Strap Yourselves In
On a related note, perhaps a last component to this illiteracy in modern game writing, is the psychological angle we have hinted at.

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Sigmund Freud, and his nephew, the propagandist Edward Bernays, were the people who "invented" modern manipulation of opinion. Also pop psychology, as a widespread phenomenon, the kind of "if you hate spiders, you must want to fuck spiders" stuff a schoolkid migth come out with, thinking they are edgy. I.E. the psychology that a modern graduate of English literature, are likely to write in their novel. Bernays, sometimes regarded as one of the most destructive and manipulative propagandists or advertisers in history, for example, got women to smoke, by applying the psychology of sexual deviance to the cigarette (it's a powerful, sexually suggestive, subversive, phallic symbol, that men are denying you), probably resulting in millions of extra deaths from cancer. For he knew:

"to sell to women, you must always promote it as something men are keeping away from you" - some guy on YouTube

Thus the entire feminist-supremacism movement, how to direct a society toward it's own own splitting on gender lines, the collpase of it's fertility, collapse of marriage, collapse of childbirth, collapse of the family, and the idea that working as a slave for a corporation is better than having a family, is explained in one pithy quote lol. The psychology of a romantic epic is, I would argue, much more sophisticated and natural, than the materialist one without symbology. One that lectures it's points like a manifesto, mired in the subjective trauma of a single subjective human perspective. Fantasy of the grander kind is nessecarily spiritual, mythic, with it's dreamlike symbolism, competing "gods" representing all the trans-personal psychic forces that buffet us, and inner wisdom. So Jung is superior to Freud. Materialistic Freudian pop psychology is one of the reasons for the death of the pre-modern perspecive, among the less literate moderns that become writers.

Great stuff, especially that last paragraph.

Freud is an interesting case because while he's not entirely wrong (and in fact he drew many of his insights from famous novelists and such, i.e. from art, so there's a sense in which he couldn't go wrong), his monomania re. sex as the only driver (let's just ignore that embarrassing business about death, which is merely a confused understanding of the mystical impulse) has done untold damage to culture and society, mainly via his "hydraulic" model of the psyche.

IOW, the idea of sexual continence (which he called "repression") as building up a kind of "pressure" that needs to be released so that the organism can return to a kind of mental equilibrium is 180 degrees opposite to the truth: in fact the plasticity of the organism means that the more you do something the more you want to do it and the further you want to push it. De Sade was much more intelligent on this (though of course he liked the fact that the release of inhibitions would mean the pursuit of more and more extreme perversions).

The latent degeneracy in our beloved game/art form comes from this, and it attracted the wrong type, so we've ultimately ended up with the horse dong mods and polymorphously perverse "romances" of today.
 

Iucounu

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There seems to be loads of men writing adventure fiction
That wasn't the proposition. The proposition was that pulp authors might have been gay. It's presumptive to assume someone was gay based on the flimsy evidence of them being comfortable with describing the male body in prose.
Not quite, what I meant to say was closet gays or transsexuals creating the kind of characters (masculine and heterosexual) they wished they were (assuming they were fighting their gay or trans inclinations). Then over the last 20 years of LGBT cult such writers no longer try to suppress their sexual deviations, and no longer have the motivation for personal escapist fantasies. Straight low-T writers may want to create the same kind of masculine characters -to compensate for being low-T- but wouldn't be affected by the LGBT cult. Maybe by feminism?

But all this is pure speculation for the sake of discussion, I have no real life examples whatsoever to back it up with.


Informative video!
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Other weird tales cover different things than a savage bronze age world, but are united by pure love of exploration; say all those tales of scientists disiscovering lost civilizations inside a hollow Earth by Jules Verne, Arthur Conan Doyle and Edgar Rice Burroughs, or planetary romance like John Carter of Venus and Carson Napier of Venus. I put together a few examples of pulp or pulp-adjacent stuff for notes a while back, I'm sure I'm missing some promiment ones:
  • "Tarzan" by Edgar Rice Burroughs (1912)
  • "John Carter of Mars" by Edgar Rice Burroughs (1917)
  • "Cthulhu Mythos" by H P Lovecraft (1928)
  • "Kull of Atlantis" by Robert E Howard (1929)
  • "Conan the Cimmerian" by Robert E Howard (1932)
  • "Zothique Cycle" by Clark Aston Smith (1932)
  • "Doc Savage" by Lester Dent (1933)
  • "Carson Napier of Venus" by Edgar Rice Burroughs (1934)
Plus, some of the movie sci-fi serials:
  • "Flash Gordon" (1936)
  • "Buck Rogers" (1939)
  • "Commando Cody" (1955)
It's from weird tales that you get fantasy that is weirder and more exotic than the standard post-Tolkien high fantasy that now dominates Western RPGs.
Nearly anything is weirder and more exotic than the Tolkienesque derivatives of derivatives that came to dominate fantasy literature by the 1990s. Early fantasy literature drew upon ancient mythology, medieval legends, and early-modern fairy tales, plus adventure stories, horror stories, historical novels, and even nascent science fiction. Naturally, the influences varied considerably from writer to writer, so that William Morris wrote pseudo-Arthurian (or pseudo-historical) novels, Lord Dunsany wrote in a fairy tale vein, Abraham Merritt claimed his stories had a scientific basis (and was strongly influenced by adventure novels), etc.

For pulp and pulp-adjacent works, if you're going so far as to include ERB's Venus stories then you might as well include his Pellucidar series (started 1922); his Barsoom/Mars series actually began in serialized format in 1912, the same year as his Tarzan series. Abraham Merritt was one of the most successful fantasy authors of the '20s and '30s and is certainly at least "pulp-adjacent" with The Moon Pool (1919), The Ship of Ishtar (1924), Dwellers in the Mirage (1932), and Creep Shadow (1934), not to mention his short story The People of the Pit (1918) that was an important influence on H.P. Lovecraft (also science fiction writer Edmond Hamilton, whose first story was an homage to The People of the Pit). For that matter, Fritz Leiber's first attempt at a Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser story (The Adept's Gambit) was published in 1936, the year Robert E. Howard killed himself, and though it was unsuccessful Leiber then shifted from a pseudo-historical setting to pure fantasy with The Jewels in the Forest in 1939 and never looked back, eventually coining the term Sword & Sorcery for this subgenre.
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
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I found this shitty meme and thought of this thread.

1732675791980.png


Why yes, I found it in a discussion about the upcoming and highly anticipated RPG Avowed, why do you ask?
 

RaggleFraggle

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Mar 23, 2022
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Other weird tales cover different things than a savage bronze age world, but are united by pure love of exploration; say all those tales of scientists disiscovering lost civilizations inside a hollow Earth by Jules Verne, Arthur Conan Doyle and Edgar Rice Burroughs, or planetary romance like John Carter of Venus and Carson Napier of Venus. I put together a few examples of pulp or pulp-adjacent stuff for notes a while back, I'm sure I'm missing some promiment ones:
  • "Tarzan" by Edgar Rice Burroughs (1912)
  • "John Carter of Mars" by Edgar Rice Burroughs (1917)
  • "Cthulhu Mythos" by H P Lovecraft (1928)
  • "Kull of Atlantis" by Robert E Howard (1929)
  • "Conan the Cimmerian" by Robert E Howard (1932)
  • "Zothique Cycle" by Clark Aston Smith (1932)
  • "Doc Savage" by Lester Dent (1933)
  • "Carson Napier of Venus" by Edgar Rice Burroughs (1934)
Plus, some of the movie sci-fi serials:
  • "Flash Gordon" (1936)
  • "Buck Rogers" (1939)
  • "Commando Cody" (1955)
It's from weird tales that you get fantasy that is weirder and more exotic than the standard post-Tolkien high fantasy that now dominates Western RPGs.
Nearly anything is weirder and more exotic than the Tolkienesque derivatives of derivatives that came to dominate fantasy literature by the 1990s. Early fantasy literature drew upon ancient mythology, medieval legends, and early-modern fairy tales, plus adventure stories, horror stories, historical novels, and even nascent science fiction. Naturally, the influences varied considerably from writer to writer, so that William Morris wrote pseudo-Arthurian (or pseudo-historical) novels, Lord Dunsany wrote in a fairy tale vein, Abraham Merritt claimed his stories had a scientific basis (and was strongly influenced by adventure novels), etc.

For pulp and pulp-adjacent works, if you're going so far as to include ERB's Venus stories then you might as well include his Pellucidar series (started 1922); his Barsoom/Mars series actually began in serialized format in 1912, the same year as his Tarzan series. Abraham Merritt was one of the most successful fantasy authors of the '20s and '30s and is certainly at least "pulp-adjacent" with The Moon Pool (1919), The Ship of Ishtar (1924), Dwellers in the Mirage (1932), and Creep Shadow (1934), not to mention his short story The People of the Pit (1918) that was an important influence on H.P. Lovecraft (also science fiction writer Edmond Hamilton, whose first story was an homage to The People of the Pit). For that matter, Fritz Leiber's first attempt at a Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser story (The Adept's Gambit) was published in 1936, the year Robert E. Howard killed himself, and though it was unsuccessful Leiber then shifted from a pseudo-historical setting to pure fantasy with The Jewels in the Forest in 1939 and never looked back, eventually coining the term Sword & Sorcery for this subgenre.
Yes, newer fiction sucks because it’s increasingly self-referential, detached from the legacy of prior human cultures, and out of touch with real human experience.

I blame bad education, rampant consumerism, and corporatist copyright preventing the preservation, dissemination, and examination of past works.

There are so many promising out-of-print works from past decades that deserve to be preserved and remixed, but are kept obscure by bullshit copyright laws. Copyright needs to be reformed. At the very least, we need an amendment that releases decades out-of-print work into the public domain. If you cannot get it except thru used copies or piracy, then the copyright shouldn’t exist.
 

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