Moonspeak 1982-1987 - The Birth of Japanese RPGs, re-told in 15 Games

[Helly]

BTW, I'll take this chance to ask: Any of you can think of a JRPG heavily inspired by post-83 CRPGs?

Ultima and Wizardry were super influential in Japan, but note that they abandoned after Ultima III. We never got something like Ultima IV, VII, VIII, IX.... Same for Wizardry - there aren't any Wizardry 7 or 8 clones out there.

It's odd, because classics like Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder, Baldur's Gate, Deus Ex, Diablo, etc all made into Japan, but never got copied. And, sadly, games like Fallout 1 & 2 or The Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall & Morrowind never made it. :/

It goes both sides really... not many JRPG-inspired CRPGs out there. We had Heroes of the Lance, which tried to copy Sorcerian, and stuff like Anachronox and Septerra Core going after Final Fantasy VII, but not much else I can think of...

Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Wasteland, King's quest: Never released in japan, nobody even know about the Fallout series before Fallout 3
Quest for glory: Fully released in japan - no impact whatsoever as far as I know
Nobody gave a damn about the game localized by Sega, whether Baldur's gate or PsT
Ultima 4 is probably the influence behind Square's Genesis:

Basically nothing post Ultima 4 had any influence on jap AVGs or RPGs.
You can easily find blobbers getting released every so often, but really, once console became a thing PC became the porn platform and that's it.

 

[felipepepe]

Nobody gave a damn about the game localized by Sega, whether Baldur's gate or PsT

Which explains why the Infinity Engine games are among the cheapest games you can fin at Akihabara's used PC games stores:

Spoiler

This was like 12 dollars.

And why is Genesis Ultima IV-like? Apparently it's a post-apoc game about robot armors, and combat is this amusing tacical 3D stuff:

 

[TigerKnee]

but really, once console became a thing PC became the porn platform and that's it.

Makes sense - whereas we still had some hardcore fans of the genre stick around on the PC in the West, the ones in Japan who stayed are of a... different... "hardcore" kind

Imagine the alternate universe where Japanese still pumps out Wizardry 6-8 clones...

 

[Helly]

And why is Genesis Ultima IV-like? Apparently it's a post-apoc game about robot armors, and combat is this amusing tacical 3D stuff:

Well, not combat-wise, but they do look very similar (Ultima 4 was released like a year before)

Furthermore, it's a non-linear open world where you fight against evil and Satan with the power of god and technology.

That's more of a guess though, I couldn't find hard evidence.

 

[Infinitron]

Furthermore, it's a non-linear open world where you fight against evil and Satan

1983.

 

[Siveon]

Wasn't Exodus some kind of computer though?

 

[Helly]

Wasn't Ultim

Furthermore, it's a non-linear open world where you fight against evil and Satan

1983.

Alright, it's more Exodus than I thought. Still, can't be sure until I interview the Square director of that project

 

[TigerKnee]

Wasn't Exodus some kind of computer though?

One that you defeated by jamming punchcards into.

 

[AArmanFV]

You missed the order of the cards, you spoilerman

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

15 games and no mention of Carmine.
すとぷ　ぶれいきぬ　い　ばるす　へりぺぺぺ

 

[Gentle Player]

Wasn't From Software's King's Field series inspired by Ultima Underworld?

Indeed, the former even had "tree" enemies called reapers, something that I've not seen in any other fiction outside of those two series.

 

[abnaxus]

Isaku from élf is a western style adventure game. With porn.

 

[felipepepe]

Isaku from élf is a western style adventure game. With porn.

How so? It looks exactly like any visual novel:

Seems to have some interactivity, like searching for clues in area, like Kara no Shoujo, but that's it. I suppose you can say it's like the old MacVenture games, but those also had inventory, etc...
I still find very weird I can't find any where you control a on-screen character, like in King's Quest & Monkey Island.

BTW, turns out King's Quest V was actually released in Japan for the FM-Towns and PC98 - along with other Sierra games like Quest for Glory, Police Quest 2 and Space Quest IV - and with full Japanese voice acting! Sadly, I can't find a single video (or disk image) of that... :/

 

[abnaxus]

Tokyo Twilight Busters has the player controlling a character on screen. But that game could be considered more of a survival rpg.

As for Isuka, I guess it can be considered a hybrid. Most visual novels are just picking the right dialogue option & being at right place at right time to trigger events. Even YU-NO even has only two real puzzles. Isuka is first person but actually has many puzzles and environmental interaction like pushing, pulling objects, etc.

At any rate, I finally remembered a D&D inspired jRPG looking over my PC98 list: Sword World

 

[TigerKnee]

I still find very weird I can't find any where you control a on-screen character, like in King's Quest & Monkey Island.

The Miles Edgeworth spinoffs in the Ace Attorney series lets you do that, but it's not fully in that perspective and there's still some standard VN parts

 

[abnaxus]

Guess this list could be useful for felipepepe

https://refuge.tokyo/pc9801/en/Adventure_Novel.html

Two purely Wapanese point & clicks: Tokyo Twilight Busters and Makyouden

Although it seems Makyouden has no puzzles.

 

[LESS T_T]

I think you'll find this interview interesting, felipepepe

President of IGDA Japan talks about Japanese game industry: its conservatism, corporate culture, game media, difference with Western (American) counterpart, etc..

 

[MRY]

BTW, I'll take this chance to ask: Any of you can think of a JRPG heavily inspired by post-83 CRPGs?

This may be cheating, but what about the jMMORPGs like Phantasy Star Online or Final Fantasy XIV, etc.? I am not an MMO players, so I have no idea, but it seems like a fair surmise. Maybe some Diablo-inspired stuff out there?

 

[Severian Silk]

I will not participate in this discussion because it has the stink of console all over it.

 

[Damned Registrations]

BTW, I'll take this chance to ask: Any of you can think of a JRPG heavily inspired by post-83 CRPGs?

This may be cheating, but what about the jMMORPGs like Phantasy Star Online or Final Fantasy XIV, etc.? I am not an MMO players, so I have no idea, but it seems like a fair surmise. Maybe some Diablo-inspired stuff out there?

Kinda valid (though PSO really has very little in common with MMO's, besides the MMO part itself- it's a full on action game with little in the way of exploration, no skill cooldowns, only spellcasters even have skills besides just attacking. Strong diablo 1 vibes. Record of Lodoss War for the Dreamcast was also very heavily diablo inspired, a sadly obscure gem. Neverland never got their due credit on their best games, sadly.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Great read. Only thing I'd add is that "Action Adventure" is more of an umbrella term than a real genre. It might be even harder to define than RPG.

(I almost wrote "gender". Fucking Tumblr)

Thief also, in addition to Fighter, Black Belt (monk), White Mage (cleric), Black Mage (magic-user), and Red Mage (fighter/mage/cleric) for 126 combinations. Final Fantasy borrowed so heavily from D&D, it's a wonder TSR didn't sue Squaresoft after the game crossed the Pacific in 1990.

Some changes were made to disguise the more obvious elements, like the Beholder turning into Evil Eye.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Evil_Eye_(Final_Fantasy)

->

Original Character Do Not Steal!!!

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Mind Flayers didn't have their appearance changed in the NES version, but they did change the name to Sorcerer from the Japanese phonetic spelling Maindofureia. :D A lot of monsters in the original Famicom version had names that were obviously derived from D&D but were changed in the NES version (e.g. Marilith to Kary; Remorhaz to Great Pede).

 

[Karellen]

BTW, I'll take this chance to ask: Any of you can think of a JRPG heavily inspired by post-83 CRPGs?

I think that question hinges to some extent on how close you want to stick to pure "CRPGs". There's quite a few Japanese roguelikes, for instance, and while it seems that there's a similar situation at play where most of them descend from the original Rogue via Mystery Dungeon, the most successful early Japanese adaptation, it might be worth investigating whether there are more influences around. Elona was inspired largely by ADOM, so there's at least that, but it's not like Japan existed entirely in a bubble previous to that.

In any case, I think that the Japanese never particularly cared about trying to maintain the purity of RPG conventions, or accurately representing the experience of playing PnP RPGs, which were never really all that popular in Japan anyway. So there's a lot of cross-pollination between genres, and it might be more likely that games (Western or otherwise) from genres other than RPGs would be more likely to have had an impact on JRPGs. Something that's missing from your list (perhaps justifiably) is Nobunaga's Ambition and other KOEI strategy games, which reach a great deal closer to RPGs than western strategy games of the time did, as far as I know anyway. I think that the overlap between Japanese strategy games and RPGs is significant, though, since the Japanese fixation with larping the Romance of the Three Kingdoms arguably produced the simulation RPG genre, and even some largely conventional JRPGs like Suikoden which have political and military themes.

 

[Crooked Bee]

BTW, I'll take this chance to ask: Any of you can think of a JRPG heavily inspired by post-83 CRPGs?

I wonder if the developers of Oriental Blue (2003) were inspired by 90s CRPGs that emphasized player choice and branching, because that game is basically Japanese AoD (except in some ways even more free-form because you can e.g. lose a fight and live to get a different story path or consequences - but also less free-form in other ways, of course): http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=963706

It's definitely more of a traditional JRPG stylistically, but the C&C/event branching really sets it apart. I guess you could say games like Romancing SaGa were an inspiration, and that probably was the case, but Oriental Blue seems closer to the Western than the Japanese notion of C&C in that it's more "natural" (if you don't treat someone, they'll die; if you don't save the town in time, it gets destroyed, etc.). But I've no idea if there was any actual Western RPG influence or if that was an evolution of some of the JRPG/VN design that accidentally came close to Western C&C in some ways.

 

[Hobo Elf]

and even some largely conventional JRPGs like Suikoden which have political and military themes.

Suikoden is based / inspired by the Chinese classic, Water Margin, which was about outlaws and their struggle against the government. The military politics was lifted from there.