Yet Another Morrowind Thread

[Bad Sector]

It makes progression far less enjoyable. Even tying it to in-game time would be preferable, anything but the player.

But there is no real in-game time, time passage in Morrowind (and most RPGs really) is related to the player's actions. The only time you get aside from what the player does is the one that is used for the day-night cycle that is completely independent from your actions, but in practice anything related to that tends to be way more annoying than enjoyable (e.g. all the quests that are like "come back in a day/week/etc" where you're just waiting around watching a progressbar filling). If creature leveling was related to time that progressed independently from your actions you'd have situations where dicking around vs focusing on leveling would affect the types of enemies you face, which would feel clashing with how the rest of the game behaves where real time is ignored.

Also, just to make clear, in Morrowind leveled creatures are not scaled like in Oblivion: the creatures you meet always have the same stats, IIRC a "leveled creature" is really just a list of allowed random spawns and it works as an "unlocking" feature. For example the "ex_ascadianisles_lev+0" leveled creature list contains a "Rat" at level 1 and a "Diseased Kagouti" at level 5. This means that once you reach level 5, this list may spawn a "Diseased Kagouti" - but also may spawn a Rat. In other words, your level affects the creatures you wont see, it doesn't stop weaker creatures from spawning. Your high level character will still come across puny creatures that will die by farting in their general direction.

 

[thesecret1]

It makes progression far less enjoyable. Even tying it to in-game time would be preferable, anything but the player.

But there is no real in-game time, time passage in Morrowind (and most RPGs really) is related to the player's actions. The only time you get aside from what the player does is the one that is used for the day-night cycle that is completely independent from your actions, but in practice anything related to that tends to be way more annoying than enjoyable (e.g. all the quests that are like "come back in a day/week/etc" where you're just waiting around watching a progressbar filling). If creature leveling was related to time that progressed independently from your actions you'd have situations where dicking around vs focusing on leveling would affect the types of enemies you face, which would feel clashing with how the rest of the game behaves where real time is ignored.

Also, just to make clear, in Morrowind leveled creatures are not scaled like in Oblivion: the creatures you meet always have the same stats, IIRC a "leveled creature" is really just a list of allowed random spawns and it works as an "unlocking" feature. For example the "ex_ascadianisles_lev+0" leveled creature list contains a "Rat" at level 1 and a "Diseased Kagouti" at level 5. This means that once you reach level 5, this list may spawn a "Diseased Kagouti" - but also may spawn a Rat. In other words, your level affects the creatures you wont see, it doesn't stop weaker creatures from spawning. Your high level character will still come across puny creatures that will die by farting in their general direction.

I know how morrowind lists work and the issue is only marginally better than it was in Oblivion. It's the game world revolving around the player. The ideal solution is to not do any of this, but if you really have to, then even day-night cycle is better, as it means the player isn't the reason why dangerous creatures are suddenly spawning everywhere.

 

[Bad Sector]

It's the game world revolving around the player. The ideal solution is to not do any of this, but if you really have to, then even day-night cycle is better, as it means the player isn't the reason why dangerous creatures are suddenly spawning everywhere.

So you don't like how the game's time advances based on the player's actions? Personally i vastly prefer that to things based on real time as i do not really like things happening without my knowledge, not only it feels like the game playing itself and me having no control over what is going on but i also prefer to take my time exploring things, which works in contrast to anything related to real time-based mechanics. I'd rather have time ignored and abstracted out wherever you can't just ignore it.

Of course another alternative for the specific case of creature spawning would be for it to be static (or randomized with a distribution that doesn't change over the course of the game) and instead based on areas - after all the rest of the game seems to completely ignore even the level-based passage of time (unless i forget something). Personally i wouldn't mind that either, but i do not think the leveled creatures approach Morrowind had took away anything related to character progression since you still come across weaker characters and there is a sense of the world itself progressing as you yourself progress in the game instead of remaining completely static, so it isn't all negative. I don't have any strong opinion on either approach, my only strong opinion would be against a real time based approach :-P.

 

[thesecret1]

So you don't like how the game's time advances based on the player's actions?

Levelling is not an action. Fulfilling a quest that causes an invasion of enemy country, and thus spawns enemy troops all over the place? That's fine - that's, dare I say, reactivity. But tombs across the world suddenly spawning elite murderzombies because the player jumped in place 100 times, thus raising acrobatics and reaching a new level? That's just pure bullshit.

Of course another alternative for the specific case of creature spawning would be for it to be static (or randomized with a distribution that doesn't change over the course of the game)

The best solution, yes.

you still come across weaker characters and there is a sense of the world itself progressing as you yourself progress in the game instead of remaining completely static

It just comes across as massive bullshit when you enter a dark, mysterious, and supposedly dangerous tomb just to find a couple scamps in there (because your level is too low to face fun enemies, apparently). It's less bullshit than Oblivion because it is more static, which just goes to prove the point: the less fuckery there is with levelled anything, the better.

 

[Bad Sector]

Levelling is not an action. Fulfilling a quest that causes an invasion of enemy country, and thus spawns enemy troops all over the place? That's fine - that's, dare I say, reactivity. But tombs across the world suddenly spawning elite murderzombies because the player jumped in place 100 times, thus raising acrobatics and reaching a new level? That's just pure bullshit.

I meant actions as "things the player does". But yeah, i am not a huge fan of how levelling up works in Morrowind, i prefer the more traditional XP-based leveling.

It just comes across as massive bullshit when you enter a dark, mysterious, and supposedly dangerous tomb just to find a couple scamps in there (because your level is too low to face fun enemies, apparently).

I agree, while i can understand why someone would want to avoid players to get killed too easily by enemies way above their stats, i think that ultimately it can be more fun to have enemies you know can easily kill you as that not only makes parts of the world feel dangerous but they also act as clear cut indicators for your character progress.

 

[NecroLord]

I dislike this levelled enemies shit and level scaling.
I prefer level appropriate challenges and enemies.
Having a sort of invisible power scale also helps to determine what enemies and challenges the character is ready to overcome.
Levels 1-10 (your average adventurer)
Levels 10-20 (an experienced adventurer and fighter/mage, whatever)
Levels 30-40 (veteran adventurer with numerous battles fought and won and very skilled in different areas)
Levels 40-50 (a world renown hero/villain who fought and conquered a great many beasts/demons and other monsters)
Levels 50 and above (a nearly mythical hero/villain of legend, the type of character that gets the attention of the gods themselves).

Just some food for thought.

 

[Funposter]

Actually
Dagoth ur and ash creatures should raise in level and power as game progresses, but vivec and tribunal clerics get weaker

Relative to what? The player? How would you measure progress?

There's a really powerful quest stage system that would easily allow for this sort of thing. It exists in Oblivion and Skyrim with Oblivion Gate/Dragon spawn chance (0% before Kvatch, 25% after Kvatch, 50% after Dagon Shrine etc.). Just bump up the power level on the relevant enemies after certain quests have been completed.

It just comes across as massive bullshit when you enter a dark, mysterious, and supposedly dangerous tomb just to find a couple scamps in there (because your level is too low to face fun enemies, apparently). It's less bullshit than Oblivion because it is more static, which just goes to prove the point: the less fuckery there is with levelled anything, the better.

To be fair, most of the dungeons in Morrowind with good stuff that you would want to be level-gated actually do have static enemy spawns or high level NPCs to stop you. Ibar-Dad always has a Daedroth, two Dremora Lords and a Golden Saint that you need to defeat in order to get Eleidon's Ward, the Daedric Helm and Daedric Battle-Axe, among other items. Anudnabia, the Daedric shrine holding Skull Crusher, always has you face a Frost Atronach at the Level 85 locked door and then a Flame Atronach inside the Forge of Hilbongard. There are always two Winged Twilights guarding the Boots of the Apostle in Berandas, and several of the levelled spawns are set to always be a Dremora or Daedroth, so you can't run in and nab the Daedric Spear at level 1 by just avoiding Scamps. Kogoruhn would probably be a better dungeon if the player was forced to fight the Ash Vampire if they wanted the Daedric Gauntlets, but that sort of qualifies too since he's just down a hallway. A lot of the game's best items are also placed on hostile NPCs that are pretty much all Level 17+.

If I had to change Morrowind's implementation while keepting true to the original spirit of it, I'd probably keep the levelled lists mostly as-is, but always have something like a 1% chance to spawn the more powerful enemies in a Levelled List before they would normally appear, that slowly increases as you level up. I'd probably have more dedicated boss spawns too, even if they were levelled and the only difference was that you could encounter stuff with a -3 or something to the list. That already sort of happens in Red Mountain, where the levelled lists for enemy spawns are two levels lower than elsewhere on the map.

 

[thesecret1]

It just comes across as massive bullshit when you enter a dark, mysterious, and supposedly dangerous tomb just to find a couple scamps in there (because your level is too low to face fun enemies, apparently). It's less bullshit than Oblivion because it is more static, which just goes to prove the point: the less fuckery there is with levelled anything, the better.

To be fair, most of the dungeons in Morrowind with good stuff that you would want to be level-gated actually do have static enemy spawns or high level NPCs to stop you. Ibar-Dad always has a Daedroth, two Dremora Lords and a Golden Saint that you need to defeat in order to get Eleidon's Ward, the Daedric Helm and Daedric Battle-Axe, among other items. Anudnabia, the Daedric shrine holding Skull Crusher, always has you face a Frost Atronach at the Level 85 locked door and then a Flame Atronach inside the Forge of Hilbongard. There are always two Winged Twilights guarding the Boots of the Apostle in Berandas, and several of the levelled spawns are set to always be a Dremora or Daedroth, so you can't run in and nab the Daedric Spear at level 1 by just avoiding Scamps. Kogoruhn would probably be a better dungeon if the player was forced to fight the Ash Vampire if they wanted the Daedric Gauntlets, but that sort of qualifies too since he's just down a hallway. A lot of the game's best items are also placed on hostile NPCs that are pretty much all Level 17+.

If I had to change Morrowind's implementation while keepting true to the original spirit of it, I'd probably keep the levelled lists mostly as-is, but always have something like a 1% chance to spawn the more powerful enemies in a Levelled List before they would normally appear, that slowly increases as you level up. I'd probably have more dedicated boss spawns too, even if they were levelled and the only difference was that you could encounter stuff with a -3 or something to the list. That already sort of happens in Red Mountain, where the levelled lists for enemy spawns are two levels lower than elsewhere on the map.Is

That's what I've said though – the reason why it doesn't suck as much ass as in Oblivion is because it is more static (ie. strong enemies in some dungeons being ALWAYS there, ie. static instead of levelled). Make it even more static (remove levelled lists entirely) and you'll get an even better experience. Gothic already figured this whole thing out – it's not a problem if a player gets filtered by an end-game enemy on game start. It just means he needs to go around rather than through an enemy, and has something to look forward to beating when he gets stronger. And if the game wants to spawn new enemies, just do it when the main quest progresses (in Gothic, it's when you enter a new "chapter", the new spawns being either wildlife, or thematically appropriate enemies like Seekers or Orcs, their presence explained via story).

Going up against a strong enemy early on is fun. You either figure out a good counter to him and manage to punch way above your level, using tactics you usually don't need to, or you come back every once in a while to have another go against it, seeing yourself growing stronger as you manage to tank that healthbar further. Levelled lists are just babying the player.

 

[Shadenuat]

1) funposter mentioning ibar dad because aside from azura quest it's like only place you are ambushed by 3 high level daedra at same time (i kno i just lawnmoweed vvardenfel like 90% of map is open colored blocks)
Did bethesda ever had anyone on team who are rpg nerds? Like they don't understand concept of monster encounters at all

Why is nord bureal tomb is so different from other tombs and is like made by rpg nerd, is it meme from daggerfall?

2) grazelands lvl1 rat lvl22goldensaint should be
Grazelands roads cities lvl1 rat lvl22 plagued kaguiti, ash slave, etc
Grazelands near daedric ruins lvl1 dremora lvl22 ogre titan etc

3)gothic isnot immersive sim. Granted bethesda themselves don't understand what it is which is why morrowind oblivion skyrim have linear story, but point is if you get quest for 4 daedra hearts you should engage into some world mechanic that allows to find kill any daedra get its heart, not collect 4 quest hearts

Inb4 people tell me well of course: morrowind is decline from daggerfall

4)bloodmoon is stuoid but still better than skyrim. Why? Idk, it actually feels nordic. Grey dark snowstorms, unanhabited ice plains, weird, agressive awkward looking creatures. Even draugr feel a bit more frightening? It all feels more pagan somehow? Idk

 

[NecroLord]

Levelled lists are just babying the player.

Exactly.
Early on it could make for some humorous situations like - "Oh, shit! I really shouldn't have come here and anger this big ass, higher level than me Barbarian."
Let players themselves decide when they are ready to tackle any challenge.

 

[Shadenuat]

Lists aren't way to baby player its bethesdas ever awkward way to somehow make world develop with players progress
They did it even worse in oblivion but idea was to somehow arm and develop enemies since they won t be sitting around doing nothing

Gothic and tackling any challenge is funny cause gothic is gated content. You can't punch final boss at lvl1 in gothic, you can in morrowind

 

[Bad Sector]

You can't punch final boss at lvl1 in gothic, you can in morrowind

Arguably, you shouldn't be able to punch the final boss in any RPG :-P.

Spoiler

ok, technically you should, you just should expect to be obliterated :-P

 

[NecroLord]

You can't punch final boss at lvl1 in gothic, you can in morrowind

Arguably, you shouldn't be able to punch the final boss in any RPG :-P.

Spoiler

ok, technically you should, you just should expect to be obliterated :-P

"I'm a God! How can you kill a God?"

 

[Late Bloomer]

 

[Shadenuat]

Whatsa wrong secretfager1 u forgot how gothic1 works?
You go to badass dark tomb, ah i am sorry, to huge fortress, you can pass under wall as meatbug. And there is nothing. Content only spawns when weed camp npc is there afaik
Lame as fuck!

You can't punch final boss at lvl1 in gothic, you can in morrowind

Arguably, you shouldn't be able to punch the final boss in any RPG :-P.

Spoiler

ok, technically you should, you just should expect to be obliterated :-P

You should have option if it's real open world. If it's closed quest doors it's shit

(Bloodmoon and tribunal closed azura door to ring which is shit, originally you could enter during dawn or dusk)

 

[deuxhero]

I always wondered how did designer who meticulously put grand soul gems in obscure shipwrecks, tel fyr, vivec quest, etc. Felt about designer who put them into leveling lists and are they one person or not

Likely the same as the guy who made an economy based around a low amount of raw coinage in circulation forcing a barter economy and making coins precious for purchasing training thought about the guy who programmed mercantile so any remotely competent character can buy things from merchants and immediately sell things back to merchants for more than the initial cost.

 

[NecroLord]

I don't even bother with the merchants.
Creeper is the one you want.
And the Mudcrab Merchant, if you can find him (though he doesn't buy as much stuff as Creeper, but he does have more money, but is way harder to find).

 

[Shadenuat]

Mercantile Story is funny because npc skills are tied to their level or something, but trader levels are too low so low mercantile, when one modder fixed it long ago Aril became cutthroat meltiades because he is quite high level compared to other merchants and npcs in seyda neen

 

[deuxhero]

Creeper and Mudcrab merchant aren't even needed. Lots of merchants offer training or have respawning items of value.

Mercantile Story is funny because npc skills are tied to their level or something, but trader levels are too low so low mercantile, when one modder fixed it long ago Aril became cutthroat meltiades because he is quite high level compared to other merchants and npcs in seyda neen

Nah, Morrowind's issue is simply
1: Multiple modifiers are misapplied or wrongly temporary. As far as I know none check level.
2: More importantly, most merchants have awful mercantile values. There's only two non-test cell NPCs in the entire game with a mercantile above 60 (the master trainer and a random clothier in Vivec). Even going down to "45 or more" only adds Lucretinaus Olcinius (a Vivec merchant who has no special merchandise and would be totally generic if not for his invisible son), Bivale Teneran (Ald'Ruhn clothier) and a lot of trainers who happen to sell books/lockpicks as well.

Edit: The mod in question simply auto-levels mercantile to be based on an NPC's level, since editing each NPC to give them sane mercantile would be tedium and mod conflict prone.

OpenMW has a full breakdown of the mechanics. The base mercantile formula is actually sane (at best you get 75% sell price and 75% buy price), it's the haggle system that's retarded.
https://forum.openmw.org/viewtopic.php?t=856

 

[Bad Sector]

You should have option if it's real open world. If it's closed quest doors it's shit

Ah you meant you should be able to reach the boss in-game? I thought you mean about killing it.

In that case... it depends on the game. If it makes sense in-game for the boss - or any area really - to be closed off to you then that is perfectly fine. Being able to go anywhere in (proper) open world games doesn't mean not having restrictions at all, it means these restrictions aren't arbitrary "just because". E.g. if you cannot enter some building because you do not have the keys for it and there are no other ways around is fine as long as this restriction is consistent with the rest of the game. On the other hand not being able to enter some building because the game arbitrarily doesn't let you to do so (e.g. it doesn't acknowledge the action or forces the player character to say something like "i don't want to enter right now" - fuck you game, i *do* want to enter right now - or anything of the sort) then that is bad open world design.

 

[Shadenuat]

I don't think open world needs arbitrary linear restrictions. Often games that have them could have been built without them. Ie there's nothing wrong with allowing player becoming friend of ashlanders before main quest for example. Neither I am fan of quest doors, chapter locked content, etc.
I think New Vegas did it more or less ok, you can interact with any faction freely there from the beginning of the game.

 

[CHEMS]

You guys play with any leveling overhaul? The vanilla system allows you to get OP too early

 

[NecroLord]

You guys play with any leveling overhaul? The vanilla system allows you to get OP too early

No.
Sometimes you just wanna get crazy and break the game.

 

[Bad Sector]

I don't think open world needs arbitrary linear restrictions. Often games that have them could have been built without them. Ie there's nothing wrong with allowing player becoming friend of ashlanders before main quest for example. Neither I am fan of quest doors, chapter locked content, etc.
I think New Vegas did it more or less ok, you can interact with any faction freely there from the beginning of the game.

I don't see these things as arbitrary because they make sense in the game world. You can visit the ashlanders before the main quest, you just don't know how to become friends of them because nobody told you (your character, not you from having meta knowledge) or even that there is a way to do that (again, lack of knowledge).

New Vegas isn't any different actually, you can go to various factions' places but you can't bring up topics you don't know about.

 

[Dr1f7]

You guys play with any leveling overhaul? The vanilla system allows you to get OP too early

yup check my thread pg. 7 and make a game install with the economy, world rebalancing, and gameplay mods
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/lets-fix-morrowind.143633/page-7

most fun playthru of morrowind i've ever had